Glue on Shoes & Selling Horses

[RedRyderKy]

Would the fact a horse needs glue on shoes effect the asking price of a horse? Curious what people thoughts were…

In the scenario I have, horse is fine barefoot trail riding/hacking anywhere with 1-2 days of ring work in sand arena, but now with an increased 4 days a week ring work minimum he is feeling like he needs shoes. Hoof quality is better barefoot which is why I’ve kept him out of shoes. We can usually nail him up once or twice then glue ons for a bit, switching back to nail ons, etc. I always pull shoes for 2 +/- mos end of November on anything shod regardless.

[Highflyer]

Depends on the horse although it won’t necessarily affect the price, so much as the saleability. An inexpensive/green horse that has been to a couple of shows is going to be much harder to sell if it needs glueons because your target buyer is likely not going to want the additional maintenance costs. A nice packer show horse selling to someone who is able to pay more in monthly costs might not be be affected at all. I actually turned down a pretty nice free lease horse because his shoes cost $350 every six weeks. That was an extra $1200 a year more than my horse at the time (and like $3600 a year more than my current guy who just has fronts.) That’s a lot of money for many people, especially if it’s a $3500 horse.

[JB]

For me, it would depend:

What’s the reason for needing the shoes, and why does he "need’ glue-ons?

If you’re using glue-ons for the sole reason you don’t want to put nail holes in his feet, and I truly believe that, then I’m good. But if it’s because the nailing of shoes for the duration he needs them really screws up his feet - slow growth, thin walls, etc - them I’m going to think twice.

It’s less about whether he needs shoes, and a lot more about the reason for glue-ons and not regular shoes.

[alibi_18]

@RedRyderKy

Would the fact a horse needs glue on shoes effect the asking price of a horse? Curious what people thoughts were…

In the scenario I have, horse is fine barefoot trail riding/hacking anywhere with 1-2 days of ring work in sand arena, but now with an increased 4 days a week ring work minimum he is feeling like he needs shoes. Hoof quality is better barefoot which is why I’ve kept him out of shoes. We can usually nail him up once or twice then glue ons for a bit, switching back to nail ons, etc. I always pull shoes for 2 +/- mos end of November on anything shod regardless.

Like JB said.

You are not selling your belief, just the horse.

if the horse has problematic feet, that’s another story.

ps: If you have issues with the quality of your horses’ feet, I would have a look at your feeding and shoeing/trimming program.

[Scribbler]

OP, in your case is there any reason the horse can’t wear boots instead of glueons?

Also what happens when he is shod with nails?

And how does he express his discomfort on the sand ring?

Personally if I were horse shopping at the moment, I’d be wary of a horse that was not comfortable moving out barefoot on arena footing, unless the arena was particularly hard or rocky.

I am personally finding hoof boots for trail riding to be the most economical form of hoof protection for trail riding.

Anyhow I expect that buyers will listen to what you have to say, and make up their own minds whether they believe or agree with you, and if they want to take a risk on the horse.

[RedRyderKy]

The horse has hereditarily not perfect feet, I’ve worked with multiple full & half siblings. However, they are far from being the worst feet. My idea of bad feet are horses who are not sound even on pasture w/o shoes and/or require glue on ALL the time, or a specialty type shoe. Horse is working barefoot currently. Indication he needs shoes…the occasional “ouch” step on harder surfaces he didn’t have when mostly hacking & trail riding with limited ring work. Arena & track surfaces are abrasive and wear a bare hoof down faster than turf.

Just to clarify for those who are so concerned, horse’s feet are maintained by a CJF with 30yrs experience. Feed program is high quality.

[RedRyderKy]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;n10400209]
OP, in your case is there any reason the horse can’t wear boots instead of glueons? QUOTE]

No, I’ve not had good luck finding boots that fit well enough to not cause rubs on past horses. Again horse is currently working barefoot, as his work increases so does the need for shoes.

[Scribbler]

Well as far as selling, I would phrase it a bit differently than you did in your initial post. Rather than say the horse “needs glueons,” I’d say he is just fine barefoot in light work, but seems to need protection in heavier work.

Then it’s really up to the buyer to decide how to deal with the feet.

They might have less abrasive arenas. They might only do light work. They might find a farrier that can make the horse totally sound barefoot, or keep on nailed shoes, or find boots that work.

In other words, the horse has mediocre feet and you are currently using glueons, but that doesn’t mean the new owners will necessarily go that route.

[S1969]

@RedRyderKy

The horse has hereditarily not perfect feet, I’ve worked with multiple full & half siblings. However, they are far from being the worst feet. My idea of bad feet are horses who are not sound even on pasture w/o shoes and/or require glue on ALL the time, or a specialty type shoe. Horse is working barefoot currently. Indication he needs shoes…the occasional “ouch” step on harder surfaces he didn’t have when mostly hacking & trail riding with limited ring work. Arena & track surfaces are abrasive and wear a bare hoof down faster than turf.

Just to clarify for those who are so concerned, horse’s feet are maintained by a CJF with 30yrs experience. Feed program is high quality.

My idea of bad feet and yours are different. In my opinion, and that of many others - the need to wear shoes for protection does not mean the feet are not good.

I agree with the post that says you do not have to sell your beliefs, just the horse.

“Horse is working well barefoot in current light program. May benefit from shoes if in heavier work.”

Whether the buyer uses nail on shoes, glue on shoes, boots, or just keeps horse in light work - is their problem to solve, not yours.

[JB]

@RedRyderKy

Just to clarify for those who are so concerned, horse’s feet are maintained by a CJF with 30yrs experience. Feed program is high quality.

I hope you don’t take this as meaning we think the feet are terrible, but I had 2 CJFs with many many years experience create a barn full of horses, including my own, with long toes and low heels. CJF means nothing, unfortunately.

I’m still curious - and this is just for curiosity sake - is it your preference to alternate between shod and glue, or is there a physical reason he “needs” to come out of nails for a few cycles?

[Sansena]

Thanks JB, my question as well.

IME glue-ons are notoriously hard on the hoof wall and typically will peel away of those precious layers. Especially if hoss is prone to pulling shoes mid-cycle.

Few and far between are the horses who absolutely NEEDneed glue-ons. It’s fad that seems to have gained popularity and I don’t see it being a benefit long term for many of my clients’ critters.

If the walls are so fragile they cannot sustain nails, then glue ons work short term but don’t do them any favors in the long run.

So to answer OP’s question, I would avoid a horse whom I was told ‘needed’ glue on shoes. To start, you need to remove them for PPE with radiographs and that is the potential beginning of even more problems to a fragile foot.

[Guilherme]

Glue on shoes would cause me to ask questions. The answer to those questions would determine how I approached a possible sale.

G.

[S1969]

@Sansena

Few and far between are the horses who absolutely NEEDneed glue-ons. It’s fad that seems to have gained popularity and I don’t see it being a benefit long term for many of my clients’ critters.

If the walls are so fragile they cannot sustain nails, then glue ons work short term but don’t do them any favors in the long run.

So to answer OP’s question, I would avoid a horse whom I was told ‘needed’ glue on shoes. To start, you need to remove them for PPE with radiographs and that is the potential beginning of even more problems to a fragile foot.

I don’t think that glue-ons are a fad, but an option that is likely to continue to improve with improvements to adhesives. My farrier shoes some TBs (including babies) for race sales and some horses that are racing or in training. He says that anyone who has had to nail into the hoof of a horse about to go into high stakes competition would agree. (Add to that a super-fit racehorse on a high energy diet!) His hope is that it eventually becomes useful and affordable enough for average horses as well.

But I agree that if a hoof cannot sustain nails - then we are talking about a bigger issue. It sounds like that isn’t the case, though, if the horse is working ok barefoot. If the horse had really brittle walls I think you’d see issues when barefoot as well.

I do agree that I would definitely not glue any shoes on the horse while it is for sale. No need to complicate matters for the pre-purchase or prejudice the buyer about the feet. Let the prospective buyer’s vet and/or farrier give them their own advice.

[Wanderosa]

@S1969

I don’t think that glue-ons are a fad, but an option that is likely to continue to improve with improvements to adhesives. My farrier shoes some TBs (including babies) for race sales and some horses that are racing or in training. He says that anyone who has had to nail into the hoof of a horse about to go into high stakes competition would agree. (Add to that a super-fit racehorse on a high energy diet!) His hope is that it eventually becomes useful and affordable enough for average horses as well.

.

I’m confused by this. In my job I watch farriers shoe horses going into high-stakes competition pretty much weekly. These men and women can get the hoof as close to what is absolute perfection for each individual horse as is humanly possible. At FEI level competition they’re required to remove and reset the shoes to allow for vet checks. Not a one has ever mentioned glue ons. I knew glue ons exist but honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen a horse wearing them.

Every horse I’ve known coming off the track had hideous feet. It’s a 1 + 2 punch of the hoof shape favored for racing and the trauma caused by thousands of pounds of concussive force on the feet of a horse that is basically still a growing baby. Even if the perfect adhesive came along tomorrow it couldn’t solve those fundamental issues.

Look at the materials used for artificial nails and nail adhesives for humans. Acrylics don’t flex with the natural nail and pull off the top layers of the natural nail when they’re removed. Silk wraps were popular 20 years ago as supposedly being less damaging. They’re porous and moisture seeps under them and gets trapped between the silk wrap and the natural nail and causes fungal issues. Now there’s gel nails. They flex more than acrylics but still rip the top layers off the natural nail on removal. If we can’t figure out perfect adhesives for human use, how will we ever come up with something perfect for horse hooves where the conditions are exerting exponentially higher amounts of stress on the adhesive? I doubt that we can.

[Guilherme]

@S1969

I don’t think that glue-ons are a fad, but an option that is likely to continue to improve with improvements to adhesives. My farrier shoes some TBs (including babies) for race sales and some horses that are racing or in training. He says that anyone who has had to nail into the hoof of a horse about to go into high stakes competition would agree. (Add to that a super-fit racehorse on a high energy diet!) His hope is that it eventually becomes useful and affordable enough for average horses as well.

But I agree that if a hoof cannot sustain nails - then we are talking about a bigger issue. It sounds like that isn’t the case, though, if the horse is working ok barefoot. If the horse had really brittle walls I think you’d see issues when barefoot as well.

Horses hooves have been “sustaining” nails since the Romans invented the iron horse shoe about 2000 years ago. In Roman times I doubt every horse had equally good horn to nail into but the majority must have been good enough to sustain the effort.

I do agree that I would definitely not glue any shoes on the horse while it is for sale. No need to complicate matters for the pre-purchase or prejudice the buyer about the feet. Let the prospective buyer’s vet and/or farrier give them their own advice.

The best farrier we ever had also hoped for a major advance in synthetic material shoes. That was in the 1990s and early 2000s. Frankly, I don’t think his vision (and wishes) ever came true. The “plastic” shoe has it’s place in the farrier’s arsenal but

[Scribbler]

As far as hoof boots go, if you can’t find any to fit your horse(s) that might be a red flag that the trim is not where it should be.

Hoof boots in general are built to fit a horse with a good barefoot trim. Short toes, heels back where they belong, no flares. Heels run forward and flared walls will interfere with fit.

I’ve used Renegades (wore out 3 pair) and am currently using Scoot Boots on the front, just started this past month. You do need to get the correct sizing.

Hoof boots have really improved over the past decade. Even the older brands have new improved models so a modern Easy Boot is not the same thing as one from 20 years ago.

They are more economical because a pair of boots runs you about $200 and can last a normal horse years (my mare ate through her Renegade toes very fast but the Scoots seem to be holding up better for her). Then you just get a trim that you can even maintain yourself at home.

I don’t think I would jump heights in hoof boots but other than that they’ve been good for work at all speeds.

The horses I see daily are barefoot with or without boots, or shod, usually hot shod these days.

I have only known one horse that “needed” glueons. He was a wonderful old boy who was traiming GP dressage when he broke a coffin bone in one front foot. Because of that his care team thought he needed front shoes even in retirement to support his bone.

But he had persistent WLD or something meaning nails broke his foot apart. I guess they couldn’t resection without compromising hoof stability? Anyhow he was getting various things glued to his fronts including aluminum shoes?

They recognized that going barefoot would have been better for hoof quality but the primary worry was supporting the healed coffin bone.

I wasn’t in the loop on his care details, but it was a spare no expense beloved horse situation, where the previous owner took him back when he broke down.

Oh, just also remembered another couple horses rehabbing from founder getting glueon shoes from our vet who is also a trained farrier, barefoot specialist, and a fan of Pete Ramey. Vet and I both went to see a Pete Ramey clinic last year.

Pete Ramey uses glueons therapeutically if needed, but just recommends hoof boots for trail riding healthy horses that need a little extra help.

So “needing glueons” would be a red flag because honestly people tend not to go there except to solve fairly serious problems.

The exception seems to be the endurance riders that train barefoot or in boots, but do glueons specifically for their races, and take them off after.

[Xanthoria]

@Scribbler

So “needing glueons” would be a red flag because honestly people tend not to go there except to solve fairly serious problems.

That. It will also increase expense of shoeing and reduce choice of shoers I could use as not all can do glue ons. Big red flag for me.

[jonem004]

@Wanderosa

I’m confused by this. In my job I watch farriers shoe horses going into high-stakes competition pretty much weekly. These men and women can get the hoof as close to what is absolute perfection for each individual horse as is humanly possible. At FEI level competition they’re required to remove and reset the shoes to allow for vet checks. Not a one has ever mentioned glue ons. I knew glue ons exist but honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen a horse wearing them.

At what point and in which FEI level competitions are shoes removed for vet checks?

[S1969]

@Wanderosa

I’m confused by this. In my job I watch farriers shoe horses going into high-stakes competition pretty much weekly. These men and women can get the hoof as close to what is absolute perfection for each individual horse as is humanly possible. At FEI level competition they’re required to remove and reset the shoes to allow for vet checks. Not a one has ever mentioned glue ons. I knew glue ons exist but honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen a horse wearing them.

Well, to put it in his more direct language which was something like - “any farrier that has had to nail into 2mm of wall on a dancing horse on crack (meaning high NSC feed) about to run a million dollar race” has thought about glue on shoes.

My OTTB has very thin walls; my farrier is good but he’s given her a hot nail once or twice in the last 13 years. That was his point. The farrier that has to shoe before a high stakes race has a lot of pressure and is working on a hoof that is not the same as an FEI competition horse. My warmblood mare has tons of wall. Lots of room for error on her feet if she needed shoes.

There are some good acrylic shoes and some good options for glue, but, I don’t think the technology is at a place where they are as good as nailing for most horses. But I do think it is theoretically possible. Not sure it would ever be practical.

[alibi_18]

@Wanderosa

@jonem004

At what point and in which FEI level competitions are shoes removed for vet checks?

Wondering this as well.

I’m less familiar with Trec rules, but I don’t see how one could justify to remove a horse’s shoes before a race.