GM is nothing but a bully.

[MistyBlue]

Again, I can’t see why you guys defend this in any form. If the student here were a horse and not a person, and GM stepped that far beyond the limits of “normal horse training pedagogy” to do what most of us consider damaging or below the belt unfair, I’d like to think you’d feel differently.

but a horse isn’t going to care if you call it a name or not. (hope not since I call mine all sorts of names)

The only way to be damaging to a horse is to physically harm it and you can;t compare calling someone making the same mistake repeatedly dumb with physically hurting them.

And below the belt unfair to a horse? How do you do that?

[Linny]

@foursocks;5338822

Calling someone a dumbbell, by the way, is so incredibly mild these days. You’d have to be living in an Amish community to be seriously in agony over this, …

Then it would be “Thou art a dumbbell” and that’s a whole other bundle o’ laundry.

[JustABay]

Haven’t read all the replies, but what I want to know is why should the equestrian sport be any different than any other sport?

Look at most competitive sports teams…They are yelled at, ridiculed, and insulted on a regular basis if they do not perform up to standards, not to mention the public scrutiny and insult if they perform poorly at a game/meet/whatever.

The military…Soldiers in training. Need I say more?

These people perform at the top level, and are not treated with kid gloves. They are required to own up to their mistakes, and are praised when they do well. From what I saw, GM was just as quick to praise a rider or horse for a good effort shown as he was to call them on a screw up.

While his style may not work for everyone, you know dam well what you’re getting into riding with him, and if you don’t like what you see or hear, then why are you there in the first place?

Just a sidenote: I firmly agree that if you have paid to audit a clinic, or ride in one, you should be respectful not only of the clinician, but th other riders/auditors who have also paid to be there. If people around me were talking while I was auditing/riding and trying to listen, I would tell them to shut the hell up. Common courtesy seems to be a thing of the past and I applaud GM for trying to keep it a part of horsemanship.

[NeedsAdvil]

for the love of baby cheeses, I can’t believe this choo choo train.

I have ridden with GM. I knew what I was getting into, and when he called me pathetic, he was right, my effort at that time was pathetic. It snapped me to attention and got me to do the exercise perfectly the next time and he was just as quick to praise me. Why would he stand by and passively let me make the same mistakes over again and teach my horse bad habits when OBVIOUSLY I needed something a little bit harsher to properly motivate me at that moment.

GM has a wicked sense of humor, and I honestly think sometimes people mistake his style for bullying. He wants what is best for the horse first, rider second, and if you are teaching your horse bad habits, you better believe he will call you out. If he will not advocate for proper riding and training, who will? The student who is repeatedly doing it wrong? I don’t think so.

[lyndaelyzoo]

[QUOTE=LaBonn![](eBon;5339276]
Here is one for you guys… Copied from a different post on here.

TWF wrote:

I brought that suit. Federal Court NJ :October 2003 Action Number 00-6258 (AET):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace [IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif)
No way…any info online? Did he neglect a horse? Why would he still be our Chef/Coach???

Found today on COTHBB:
Advanced Search POSTS: Morris Neglect
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh…ct#post2872163

My case against George, Hunterdon and Chris has been cited on several threads over the years…some have been “retired”. I was under oath on the stand for almost 2 days in Federal Court. It lasted 2 1/2 week but felt like forever. The case was divided into two parts…One to establish Negelct leading to the death of Grande Saber and Second to establish the monetary award.

The first part was enough to kill me. The Jury returned a Unanimous Decision - GUILTY of Neglect. I couldn’t bear to go throught the second part of the trial and settled with the insurance company. I am not aware of George being out of pocket for anything during the trial. You would be amazed that I had more liability insurance than Hunterdon Inc, George and Kappler!

The USEF was notified of the case upon the verdict as Chris was nominated Horsemen of the Year 2003. The only news coverage came from the Trenton Star-Ledger although editors of equine journals were informed of the lawsuit which took several years to get to Court. This case created a tense undercurrent among trainers as there were more than a few prominent trainers holding their breaths as they followed the proceedings.

The 2 1/2 week Jury Trial was heard in Federal Court In Trenton,New Jersey presided by the most Senior Judge of the Court…the Honorable Anne E. Thompson presiding. : October 2003 Action Number 00-6258 (AET) :
The Unanimous jury verdict found George Morris, Hunterdon,Inc and Chris Kappler NEGLIGENT in the DEATH of Grande Saber.

As part of the verdict, the Judge directed Morris Hunterdon and Kappler to return Saber’s equipment including his halter…that never happened.

Kappler was the 2003 Horseman of the Year.[/QUOTE]

Wow! This is very disturbing and I didn’t know it was a guilty verdict.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=mvp;5339522]
No, I didn’t see the ride. I’ll trust your summary of the exchange.

There are multiple reasons that the rider didn’t do what he asked. Her being stupid is just one of the many possibilities. And if her stupidity is, in fact, the main cause of the problem, then announcing that does no good. It tells her nothing about how to change things up.

Should she have known how to produce in her horse what it sounds like he wanted? Given the venue, I’ll assume so. But whether or not she could execute that is a separate question.

FWIW, I also believe your remarks about GM being quick with the praise and others’ reports about him rewarding the person who tries and misses.

But the whole thing about “frustration” and “being kind” really shouldn’t enter into it. How the teacher feels is immaterial. And dollars-to-donuts, GM knows this and would agree.

Again, I can’t see why you guys defend this in any form. If the student here were a horse and not a person, and GM stepped that far beyond the limits of “normal horse training pedagogy” to do what most of us consider damaging or below the belt unfair, I’d like to think you’d feel differently.[/QUOTE]

I think there are two schools of thought on this.

Some people believe GM belittled the rider either out of pure meanness or possibly frustration with her repeated mistakes. Those are the ones who are on here talking about abuse/damaging/inappropriate behavior.

Then there are those of us who are pretty sure that GM employed this tactic, deliberately and without emotion, to provoke the rider, and get her to make a change. Which was successful, by the way, and is a commonly known approach employed by this very accomplished trainer.

To follow your horse training suggestion …(and to repeat my earlier comment,) GM called the rider a “dumbbell” to get the rider’s attention… the way a good rider would use a stick to reinforce the driving aids to a horse that was ignoring the leg.

There are people who call any use of the stick, “whipping a horse,” and consider it abuse, period, end of story. They don’t care that the horse was balking, they don’t care that it wasn’t a hard spanking or that it didn’t leave a mark. To that crowd, hitting a horse with a stick is whipping and it’s abuse. Period. Just like the posters on here who think the use of any term like “dumbbell” is nasty and inappropriate.

Then there are those of us who consider the judicious use of the stick to be a reasonable reinforcement of the driving aids, and who understand and accept it as part of a training process. The goal is to create a horse that is light to the leg and goes forward promptly. We do not consider the use of the stick to be abusive, and therefore don’t have any problem “defending” it as an aid. Just like the posters on here (myself included) who think the use of a mild insult like “dumbbell” was a reasonable way to get that rider back on track.

[SueL]

I’ll point out that he is very quick with praise when you get it right. There are more excellents than dumbbells in the video stream.

He wants the horse straight, on the aids and ahead of the leg. BFD, those concepts have been around since Xenophen.

He’s a teacher, not a cheerleader.

Sue

[blackcat95]

It’s funny how you all keep talking about “the children” and their self esteem… have you asked them what they think?

I’m a teenager and I hope to be a good rider one day. At this point, I would not want to clinic with GM. Audit- yes, but clinic- no. Not because of name calling, or self-esteem, or hand-holding, but because I’m not good enough. I don’t have (and probably never will) have the caliber of horse that is needed for that kind of clinic. The horse I’m riding now doesn’t do lead changes, can’t jump over 2’6, and is short strided, but he’s good for what I’m doing now. And that’s fine.

Both of my trainers have yelled at me before, big time. I’ve been asked to leave the ring because I was making stupid mistakes and could not get it together. Always my fault, not the horse. I’ve cried in lessons. But I’ve always gotten through it. That’s what being a rider is all about- if you want to get better, you’ve got to work for it.

Those “children” riders are at the top of our sport, and if they can’t do what the trainer (any trainer) is asking, then they either need to figure it out or leave. You can’t be half-assed about riding horses. You just won’t get better.

The whole point of a clinic is to learn and get better. If you aren’t going to take the advice of the clinician and follow directions, then what’s the point of going to the clinic in the first place?

[SnicklefritzG]

If he asks someone to do something repeatedly and they don’t do it then he’s entitled to feel frustrated. HOWEVER, I don’t think that calling someone “dumb” or “stupid” is acceptable. In fact, I think it is completely unprofessional. If he wants to express his frustration, fine. He should do it in a more constructive way as in “I’ve asked you to do this X times. If you can’t complete the exercise, you need to go back to basics.” There’s a difference between telling someone something like that and insulting their intelligence.

Being tough is acceptable. Being insulting and rude isn’t.

[bizbachfan]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;5339680]
If he asks someone to do something repeatedly and they don’t do it then he’s entitled to feel frustrated. HOWEVER, I don’t think that calling someone “dumb” or “stupid” is acceptable. In fact, I think it is completely unprofessional. If he wants to express his frustration, fine. He should do it in a more constructive way as in “I’ve asked you to do this X times. If you can’t complete the exercise, you need to go back to basics.” There’s a difference between telling someone something like that and insulting their intelligence.

Being tough is acceptable. Being insulting and rude isn’t.[/QUOTE]

but it’s not GM to “edit” himself and any one who did any research into riding with him would know that. What is worse dumbell or soup sandwich:)?? he just says what he thinks at the moment and that will never change so don’t clinic with him if that bothers you.

[Wanderluster]

I threw my rider in the West Coast clinic at the last minute because of a cancellation. This rider had moved up to showing in the 3’ 6" equitation for 6 months prior to the clinic.
She was a well regarded rider in a small circuit and I thought it was appropriate to introduce her to the standards expected at the upper levels. She was ready for the challenge of being perfect or die while trying.
George is always HIMSELF… and if you aren’t there to learn then both parties will be dissappointed.
We heard both praise and admonishment. OK, seems fair when trying to improve. Since when are clinicians expected to stroke every student ? Frankly I feel that a lot of reserve and diplomacy is drawn from the use of gentle critisim… knucklehead, dodo head, birdbrain etc. old school riders heard much worse and didn’t allow it to warp them emotionally.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=bizbachfan;5339687]
but it’s not GM to “edit” himself and any one who did any research into riding with him would know that. What is worse dumbell or soup sandwich:)?? he just says what he thinks at the moment and that will never change so don’t clinic with him if that bothers you.[/QUOTE]

GM obviously doesn’t edit himself, otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist. :lol:

There’s a big difference between calling someone “dumbell” vs “soup sandwich”. I could laugh at the latter. It’s funny and creates a good visual impression of the problem (I assume a floppy rider with weak position). If my trainer called me that, I’d find it amusing. However, “dumbell” is mean. It doesn’t tell you anything about what the problem is or how to fix it. That’s one of the inherent problems with the way he criticizes people. I’m willing to wager if people were good enough to get into the horsemastership clinic that they aren’t stupid.

[bizbachfan]

[QUOTE=JSwan;5337696]
Allow me to quote a master:

Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land and maybe we can find some self confidence for you – you jack wagon! Tissue?

R. Lee Ermy

I’d give my right arm to participate in a George Morris clinic. :yes:[/QUOTE]

:):):lol:

agree hilarious but I wouldn’t let GM get on my crazy horse, she might HURT him;)

[bizbachfan]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;5339696]
GM obviously doesn’t edit himself, otherwise this thread wouldn’t exist. :lol:

There’s a big difference between calling someone “dumbell” vs “soup sandwich”. I could laugh at the latter. It’s funny and creates a good visual impression of the problem (I assume a floppy rider with weak position). If my trainer called me that, I’d find it amusing. However, “dumbell” is mean. It doesn’t tell you anything about what the problem is or how to fix it. That’s one of the inherent problems with the way he criticizes people. I’m willing to wager if people were good enough to get into the horsemastership clinic that they aren’t stupid.[/QUOTE]

In the end the ones he criticizes harshly often become his “targets” to improve and they appreciate him, maybe not so PC but in the end desired results achieved. I know clinic I saw last year the ones he pushed the hardest were not in the least offended and worked hard to earn his respect and did so and got final praise from him.

[bizbachfan]

P.S. personally I would rather be called dumbell, means I didn’t listen or follow his instruction most likely, Soup Sandwich means I ride like crap not good

[findlymine]

My 2 cents worth!!!

If you are going to clinic with someone like GM expect some rough remarks. He does not care what you have won in the past if he sees something your doing wrong he will say it!!! I have been around many profressional athletes that were highly sought of in college and they just get chewed out by professonal coaches. People at the top of there game such as these kids are don’t need to be catered too they need to be admonished if they do something wrong and praised if they do something right. At the top of any level if someone caters to a person they won’t be at the top of their game for long and gm’s record speaks for itself!!!

[JenEM]

@LaBonnieBon;5339276

Here is one for you guys… Copied from a different post on here.

TWF wrote:
The 2 1/2 week Jury Trial was heard in Federal Court In Trenton,New Jersey presided by the most Senior Judge of the Court…the Honorable Anne E. Thompson presiding. : October 2003 Action Number 00-6258 (AET) :
The Unanimous jury verdict found George Morris, Hunterdon,Inc and Chris Kappler NEGLIGENT in the DEATH of Grande Saber.

Well, presuming that by “action number” they meant docket, the only thing by that number in any jurisdiction that’s coming up on FindLaw is a banking case from 2001. Additionally, nothing is coming up at all searching Hunterdon, Kappler, or George Morris as parties, so I’m not sure how much weight I’d put on that.

Maybe it’s working at the messy intersection of politics and live television, but I hear far worse than “dumbbell” exchanged on a daily basis. Doesn’t make it right, but if it’s going to send you into a crying fit, maybe you should rethink your choice of professions. Same thing with riding with GM–you know what you’re getting going in, and if you don’t want to or can’t deal with it, don’t ride with him.

[SnicklefritzG]

I’d like to know if he ever called Jackie-O “dumb”

[sptraining]

Ends justify means, right?

[c_est_moi]

At the beginning of 6th grade my teacher had everyone name their hero. I didn’t know very much about horses at the time, but I knew enough to know that George Morris was the be-all-and-end-all of trainers, and for that, I respected him like no other. Geez, I must have read A Very Young Rider a thousand times—I sooo wanted to be Debbie! So naturally, I proudly told the entire class that George Morris was my hero, and for some stupid reason I was smug that none of them would have any idea who on earth he was.

Well, as Murphy’s Law would have it, the daughter of Grande Saber’s owner happened to be in that class (I had no idea, and seriously what are the chances?!). She approached me after class to inform me that George Morris was responsible for neglecting, and ultimately killing her beloved horse. The good part of this story was that I eventually became friends with this girl, and I spent many lovely afternoons at her family’s farm playing with Grande Saber’s babies. The sad part is that I witnessed how horribly the death of Saber affected her family. It was like a cherished family member had died—even years after he perished. Naturally, my opinion of George Morris was tarnished by the pain his neglect inflicted on my friend and her family. But for a long time I still respected him as a talented trainer, although perhaps not a great horseman (if it is possible to distinguish the two).

I have to say that now that I am older I have almost no respect for any teacher of any kind who belittles or taunts his/her students (and yup that includes George Morris). It took me a very long time to realize that no matter how talented or knowledgeable the trainerI will NEVER learn very much from someone who lacks common courtesy. Forget all of the “thin vs. thick skin argument”–in a very fundamental way, it’s distracting to have a trainer make snippy/rude remarks when you’re trying to learn. I’d rather have MY focus be on MY riding instead of someone else’s rudeness.

George Morris is professional, and frankly he should be able to provide criticism/feedback in a professional manner. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter if “you can take it” from him because he shouldn’t be doling “it” out to begin with! I feel a little sorry for anyone who thinks that they NEED someone to be rude to them in order to learn. Personally I will not pay anyone to be disrespectful/rude to me—there are simply too many people in this world who will disrespect me for free!