Go into debt for a horse???

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2883775]
No one said that slc…I just pointed out that even a collateralized loan does not necessarily get you off the hook if you default. Go back and reread for comprehension this time and lay off the Nyquil.

Debt/loan whatever you want to call it…it takes resources to pay it whether you have it collateralized by other assets or not. So you have 100 k in the bank which very few people really have…and I wonder why if you have that much you would not just outright buy the horse…anyway…you buy a horse for 50,000, you are out of 50,000 no matter how you twist it and you have an obligation to pay back every penny even if your collateral is not worth what you owe on it.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. If you are carrying a car payment and a mortgage, are you going to tell people you are debt-free? Good luck with that!

a little clarification

I’m really sorry that so many of you are upset by the short article my mom wrote. It was definitely not intended to insult anyone or their horse. I wanted to make a brief response in her defense. The title of this column is, “What I wish I’d known but didn’t…” (Or something similar, sorry I don’t have a DT nearby!) When DT asked her to write something for that column, she asked me what I thought she should write about, and I suggested this topic. The reason being that she spent most of her life riding horses that were really not well suited to UPPER LEVEL, COMPETITIVE dressage. She was long listed for the USET on an OTTB and an appenidx QH, both of whom were not really well suited for FEI dressage due to conformation, gaits, and previous training. Since then she’s ridden and trained many more horses of the same ilk up through the levels. On the one hand, she always thought it was very impressive that she could take an OTTB (or something similar, no offense to OTTBs!!) that had poor conformation and tight, short gaits, and train it to do a competent, confident job through 4th level, PSG, GP, whatever it was that the horse finally got to. And that IS impressive, and it IS worthwhile. But as I grew up and eventually decided to go into this sport professionally, I decided that I wanted to do it a bit differently. I looked at her years spent on these types of horses and thought, isn’t is just as impressive and worthwhile to do this on a horse that was made for the job? So after my wonderful, 14.3 hand, terrible moving, (but incredibly kind) QH maxed out at PSG and we wanted to look for another horse for me, I knew I wanted to take the time to find a REALLY GOOD horse. It took two years to find him and we had to buy something very young and green so we could afford it. Then when I started doing this professionally, I began trying to take the best possible horses in training. Since I was young and no one wanted to give me their nice, trained, horses, that mean working for a good breeder and starting babies under saddle in order to be able to ride some really good quality horses. Over the years I have been able to keep the ride on some of these super horses and slowly move them up the levels. My mom has also begun to ride better and better quality horses (mostly at my insistance), and it has really been an eye opener for her. To be perfectly honest, I think she used to enjoy riding the difficult, poorly built horses because she thought it made her seem like an even better rider than the rider on the beautiful moving, well built horse. But it doesn’t. And now she is finally riding some really super horses for the first time in her life, and thinking, “Why didn’t I do this sooner?” It’s still an incredibly challenging thing to train one of these super movers to the FEI levels. And it really does make you a BETTER rider to be able to ride these kind of horses well. At least it has for myself and my mom. We both still LOVE all types of horses. I still own my 25 year old QH and cherish him, and she still owns and loves the last OTTB she trained to GP (now 28.) She doesn’t feel that the time she spent with all of those previous horses was wasted time, but she does now feel like that time could have been spent on better quality horses. The feeling that she used to have was somehow reverse snobbery, in a way. Like she was better for having done the training on a very limited horse than Trainer X was for having done it on Mr. Fancy Schmancy WB. And that’s just stupid, and now she realizes it. In a way she has come down off her high horse (terrible pun, especially since most of them weren’t very high!!) and realized that all of these years of trying to make stiff, tight, short moving horses into “ballet dancers” was perhaps a little mislead. You only get one shot at life, and at some point you have to decide how you are going to spend those precious hours.

So much for the short response! I hope this clarifies things a little. The point of this column in DT is to keep people from making the same “mistakes” that these writers have made in the past. She knew in writing this article that it was going to be a touchy subject, and perhaps she should have written it in a different way. (I did not read it before it was written on this thread. I personally would have voted to remove the take out a loan line, but that’s Mom for you.) For those of you who know my mom, she is very direct/blunt, and sometimes it doesn’t come across too well in print. For those of you who are insulted, please do not feel that way. Love your horses, keep trying to become better riders, and enjoy the journey on whatever horse you’re riding.

.

debt
–noun 1. something that is owed or that one is bound to pay to or perform for another: a debt of $50.
2. a liability or obligation to pay or render something: My debt to her for advice is not to be discharged easily.
3. the condition of being under such an obligation: His gambling losses put him deeply in debt.

loan1

–noun 1. the act of lending; a grant of the temporary use of something: the loan of a book.
2. something lent or furnished on condition of being returned, esp. a sum of money lent at interest: a $1000 loan at 10 percent interest.
3. loanword.

You receive a loan and now you are indebted to pay it.

in·debt·ed

–adjective 1. committed or obligated to repay a monetary loan: He was indebted to his friend for a large sum.
2. obligated for favors or kindness received: He was indebted to her for nursing him through pneumonia.

I only know two people who took out loans to buy horses.

Neither person had any hope of ever getting to 2nd level. Neither one ever competed in shows nor did they want to compete.

Neither of them defaulted on their loans.

In both cases, the horses proved too hot for their owners to ride.

Ironically, in both cases the horses developed soundness issues within two years.

In both cases, the people are paying interest and principal on loans for horses that they no longer own.

Neither of them rides any more. They will be unable to buy another horse until they pay off the loan on the horse that they got rid of.

Now which one did not waste time because they bought the best horse that they could afford?

Which one became a better rider because they bought a better horse?

Maybe these are just isolated incidents. But I think not. They are just examples of why it is not such great advice to get a loan to buy the best horse that you can afford.:no:

Oh now this discussion is getting absolutely ridiculous!

“Getting a loan” for any amount and paying interest on that loan is “DEBT”. Debt IS what it IS. You cannot just change the entire meaning a word to make you feel better about it…

Goodness, no wonder we are in such a mess!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debt

[QUOTE=ElizaS;2883798]
I’m really sorry that so many of you are upset by the short article my mom wrote. It was definitely not intended to insult anyone or their horse. I wanted to make a brief response in her defense. The title of this column is, “What I wish I’d known but didn’t…” (Or something similar, sorry I don’t have a DT nearby!) When DT asked her to write something for that column, she asked me what I thought she should write about, and I suggested this topic. The reason being that she spent most of her life riding horses that were really not well suited to UPPER LEVEL, COMPETITIVE dressage. She was long listed for the USET on an OTTB and an appenidx QH, both of whom were not really well suited for FEI dressage due to conformation, gaits, and previous training. Since then she’s ridden and trained many more horses of the same ilk up through the levels. On the one hand, she always thought it was very impressive that she could take an OTTB (or something similar, no offense to OTTBs!!) that had poor conformation and tight, short gaits, and train it to do a competent, confident job through 4th level, PSG, GP, whatever it was that the horse finally got to. And that IS impressive, and it IS worthwhile. But as I grew up and eventually decided to go into this sport professionally, I decided that I wanted to do it a bit differently. I looked at her years spent on these types of horses and thought, isn’t is just as impressive and worthwhile to do this on a horse that was made for the job? So after my wonderful, 14.3 hand, terrible moving, (but incredibly kind) QH maxed out at PSG and we wanted to look for another horse for me, I knew I wanted to take the time to find a REALLY GOOD horse. It took two years to find him and we had to buy something very young and green so we could afford it. Then when I started doing this professionally, I began trying to take the best possible horses in training. Since I was young and no one wanted to give me their nice, trained, horses, that mean working for a good breeder and starting babies under saddle in order to be able to ride some really good quality horses. Over the years I have been able to keep the ride on some of these super horses and slowly move them up the levels. My mom has also begun to ride better and better quality horses (mostly at my insistance), and it has really been an eye opener for her. To be perfectly honest, I think she used to enjoy riding the difficult, poorly built horses because she thought it made her seem like an even better rider than the rider on the beautiful moving, well built horse. But it doesn’t. And now she is finally riding some really super horses for the first time in her life, and thinking, “Why didn’t I do this sooner?” It’s still an incredibly challenging thing to train one of these super movers to the FEI levels. And it really does make you a BETTER rider to be able to ride these kind of horses well. At least it has for myself and my mom. We both still LOVE all types of horses. I still own my 25 year old QH and cherish him, and she still owns and loves the last OTTB she trained to GP (now 28.) She doesn’t feel that the time she spent with all of those previous horses was wasted time, but she does now feel like that time could have been spent on better quality horses. The feeling that she used to have was somehow reverse snobbery, in a way. Like she was better for having done the training on a very limited horse than Trainer X was for having done it on Mr. Fancy Schmancy WB. And that’s just stupid, and now she realizes it. In a way she has come down off her high horse (terrible pun, especially since most of them weren’t very high!!) and realized that all of these years of trying to make stiff, tight, short moving horses into “ballet dancers” was perhaps a little mislead. You only get one shot at life, and at some point you have to decide how you are going to spend those precious hours.

So much for the short response! I hope this clarifies things a little. The point of this column in DT is to keep people from making the same “mistakes” that these writers have made in the past. She knew in writing this article that it was going to be a touchy subject, and perhaps she should have written it in a different way. (I did not read it before it was written on this thread. I personally would have voted to remove the take out a loan line, but that’s Mom for you.) For those of you who know my mom, she is very direct/blunt, and sometimes it doesn’t come across too well in print. For those of you who are insulted, please do not feel that way. Love your horses, keep trying to become better riders, and enjoy the journey on whatever horse you’re riding.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this very informative post. How lovely that you mother wanted the OTTBs and other breeds to not be the underdogs so to speak for so long.

Why the assumption that any horse that cost less than $20K and up is “stiff and short moving?”

Of course, if we had the money, most of us would opt for the fanciest mover/best temperament, etc. we could manage, which usually, but not always, means a WB. But when one’s budget is under $10K that doesn’t usually include the uber fancy movers.

But anything less is a waste of our time?

I would be absolutely THRILLED if I were able to get my horse, who is NOT a “short stiff mover” to PSG, even if he isn’t a WB.

I appreciate the explanation, and Eliza’s note that, given the choice, she would not have included the “get a loan” comment, but I still think that most of us KNOW that if we aspire to the highest levels, you do need the sort of horse Mrs. Sydnor recommends. BUT… not all of us expect to reach FEI levels, and not all of us have the money or will go into debt to get that super horse. If the comment about “I can only afford $5,000” had not been treated so dismissively, and the article had, as Eliza sets forth, simply meant, “get the best you can if you aspire to the highest levels”… no one would have been upset.

Thank you, Eliza, for the clarification and insight. That was an incredibly thoughtful and well-written response, and very much appreciated. :yes:

Sydnor never said you can’t find a nice horse to have fun on for less money, or that you can’t have a lot of fun.

But she’s entirely being realistic when she says really competitive horses aren’t cheap. I just spent 3 years looking for a very special horse, and gave up ever finding anything in my price range. I spent all that time and had some real expert people beating the bushes for me, I looked at hundreds and hundreds of horses; it is just not all that easy to find a really super competitive horse that is not expensive. They have only gotten more expensive. They have not gotten cheaper.

No, Sydnor is not trying to preserve the top end of the market, as one of you accused her of. She is not some conniving operator like that.

Expensive horses aren’t selling as quickly as they used to, but the prices aren’t coming down.

Ever.

Unfortunately, and I know everyone here is going to scream bloody murder, but riding better horses DOES make one a better rider. I have learned from not riding such talented horses - they DO cause a rider to ride badly in certain ways. And lesser movers simply don’t challenge the rider to develop a more supple, athletic seat and position.

Less able horses CANNOT maintain the collection needed for the upper levels and stay sound. Either they do the upper level work in a sort of fake ‘working’ gait, not collection at all (this is VERY common in fact) or they become unsound and are retired or dropped down.

Sure, one gets that basic experience on almost any type of horse, but when it comes to some really more ambitious higher level goals, the trouble does start.

I agree that most people could do what they want to do on a cheaper horse. I was the POSTER CHILD for doing as much as you can on a cheap horse. I did that nearly all my life. I rode free horses, 800 dollar horses, I-can’t-stand-this-one-here-you-ride-him horses. That was ALL I rode for a very long time.

Horses without natural balance and ability DO cause the RIDER to struggle constantly to artificially create that balance - he gets up on a more naturally talented horse, and he drives it completely insane, he has to completely change how he rides, and it isn’t easy; many people can’t make that transition after they ride that way for so long, I have seen plenty of people not able to change. years and years of habits are not easy to kill off.

Less able, less balanced horses, horses with less natural impulsion, horses that roll the rider all over the saddle - they cause riders to create lifelong - BAD HABITS.

Someone who’s never had to make this transition just isn’t going to understand what this means.

Yes, there is a difference. I recall when Klimke came here in '86 I think and told one of our riders, ‘This is just not an appropriate horse for this job’ she burst into tears and was freaking out at a clinic, she just couldn’t believe it, so unfair, so CRUEL, so MEAN, so UNTRUE! It was a LOVELY horse, right? What was the bastard trying to do! What horrible evil philosophy does such a cruel unthinking mean old man have!!!

Well, no. It was not the right horse. Not for what she wanted to do. She just couldn’t accept it. And she wound up VERY angry and very unhappy after that meeting. And she was telling the world about it.

And there was only one problem.

Klimke was right.

Years ago a friend of mine had one of those lovely, agreebable, kind horses who was just a sweetheart and would do anything for you - the horse was a very nicely built horse, quiet, obedient, nicely bred, moved nicely, plenty nice enough for 99% of people.

But he was just not a top class horse.

A very astute trainer I knew was watching this gal compete at a local show, and of course, this gal beat everyone at that regional type show. Trained it herself, that rider did. We were all as proud as punch of her. Fairy tale come true, right?

I watched the sweet old horse go around and the trainer said, ‘There’s only one problem with that type of horse’. I watched dreamily as the rider went around performing upper level movements in the test…dreaming I had that sort of horse…and the trainer said, ‘Only problem is, that sort of horse makes you ride like a god damned butcher’.

I turned around and STARED at this genteel woman who I had never heard talk that way. HOW HORRIBLE a thing to say.

“But, but he’s LOVELY…” I said.

The trainer just smiled. “You’ll learn - you have to learn to think for yourself.”

Lacking balance, he was hard on himself. Every step put twice as much wear on him. He gave as much as he could, you could see how hard he tried. He was never over worked or exhausted. She was as kind as a mother to him. And oh how he tried. And how she tried. Before anything bad happened, he was dropped down.

Over many years I cliniced and showed now and again with the rider, and as she worked so hard over time to move up the levels, and got each new horse (no, she didn’t break them down and sell them to the knacker, if that’s your next accusation), I watched how she chose horses and how it went. She was very forthright and would tell anyone the process she was going through.

She got horses that were more and more reactive and sensitive, and had more and more natural balance, their gaits were more and more balanced. She seemed to be going thru a process, largely on her own but with some guidance, of totally remaking herself as a rider.

The horses stayed sound.

She began to win at other shows. Not just our regional shows.

We didn’t see so much of her locally.

We started reading about her in the magazines, instead of the local county paper.

And to my complete amazement, 10 years later, when I see her ride, she is unrecognizable. She has a finesse, an elegance, ,and a body control and a posture and position that was never there before. Watching her ride, says my SO, ‘is like watching waves break on a beach’ - smooth - elegant - classical dressage at its best.

She has given everything to do this. Money that could have been spent on other things - vacations, new cars, furniture - went to this. No, they didn’t go into debt or have dramatic problems. But they did make decisions. Mainly, “This is what we want to do with our lives”.

No, she probably will never compete in the Olympics or the world championships.

And she as well as her family all worked hard and gave up other things to help her achieve what she has done. And she worked very hard.

And what a wonderful way to spend a life, in the pursuit of excellence.

Thank You ELIZA!!! Best wishes to both of you!

Yes, thanks, Eliza.

In retrospect, the article would not have been offensive if she had written the whole thing in the first person, i.e., I wish I had done this, I wish I had done that.

She probably didn’t even realize how the article would sound when she was phrasing it as general advice applicable to everyone.

Her advice is right on the money for someone in her, and in your situation. But for the rest of us, maybe not so much! :winkgrin: :lol:

Eliza, thank you for your post.

Thank goodness this topic is de-heating and now, presumably, we can all settle down. :slight_smile:

For the record, I did read the article as simply advice to get the best we can afford, as I tried to explain in my posts.

This has been a fun thread! I hope we all enjoy and appreciate our individual horses, and that we will continue to progress in our own ways toward our own goals!!

[QUOTE=Sandy M;2883860]
Why the assumption that any horse that cost less than $20K and up is “stiff and short moving?”

Of course, if we had the money, most of us would opt for the fanciest mover/best temperament, etc. we could manage, which usually, but not always, means a WB. But when one’s budget is under $10K that doesn’t usually include the uber fancy movers. [/QUOTE]
Sorry, I do have to disagree with you on the bolded statement. People have favorite breeds/types of horses, and for me it is irrespective of budget. In my travels I have found the fanciest movers/best temperaments to be TWHs, ASBs, Morgans. WBs are great horses, but they are not better. They are just a different type which some people prefer.

Can we please stop with the myth that one type of horse is better than the other? :frowning:

newsflash to canticle: we are on the dressage board, talking about dressage horses.

[QUOTE=canticle;2883930]
Sorry, I do have to disagree with you on the bolded statement. People have favorite breeds/types of horses, and for me it is irrespective of budget. In my travels I have found the fanciest movers/best temperaments to be TWHs, ASBs, Morgans. WBs are great horses, but they are not better. They are just a different type which some people prefer.

Can we please stop with the myth that one type of horse is better than the other? :([/QUOTE]

Preaching to the choir. I’m an Appy person down to the bone. And agree that there are wonderfully moving horses in all breeds. But generally speaking, and in the internationally competitive dressage world, that still means a WB.

Now, just for the exception that proves the rule: I don’t know that he’d be competitive today (though he did have an excellent passage and piaffe), but let’s remember that Gwen Stockebrande’s international horse and Pan American medallist horse, Bao, was a TWH/Morgan. BUT… you don’t see that sort of thing nowadays. Still - should someone have told Gwen she was wasting her time…??? (and when she competed in Europe, they called him an “American Saddle horse” (not Saddlebred), because they feared the European judges would have problems with the idea of a Tennessee Walker/Morgan Grand prix dressage horse.)

Now which one did not waste time because they bought the best horse that they could afford?

Unfortunately, although your friends bought “the best horse they could afford”, it was not the best horse for them. As you said, both temperaments were too hot for their riders and should probably have never been purchased.

Too many people have ended up in that situation. Some have been misled by trainers, but more do not bother to sweep the stars from their eyes.

:slight_smile: If I’m not mistaken, she was even married to Karl at one time. :slight_smile:

Maybe she is tired of run of the mill horses when she teaches a clinic. :):):):):):slight_smile:

Just a theory, nothing more, nothing less. I still do not see what the hub-bub is about. Sometimes you want things, sometimes you don’t. How any one spends their money is totally not my business. “:)”

Whether or not she was married to Karl has nothing to do with how good her advice is. I get so sick of hearing how so and so was so and so’s husband. She worked just as hard as anyone else.

slc - the rider you just told the full story on above - what’s her name please?