Go into debt for a horse???

[slc2]

The one with the sweet pleasant horse? I’m not giving her name in public. She exists and the story is real, if you don’t believe it, there’s nothing futher I’m going to do about that.

Furthermore, I’ve watched the same thing happen to many people over the years. It’s not exactly an unusual situation - it’s very common.

As for the rider in the Klimke clinic, no, I’m not givin her name. It happened. But that same situation has also happened - many, many many times. Neither of those stories are unusual.

YOU ALL choose to concentrate on the people you see that buy costly horses and have trouble riding them because that’s what makes YOU feel better you are better than them, and because you like to see people fail, and feel clever and smug.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@slc2;2884073

The one with the sweet pleasant horse? I’m not giving her name in public. She exists and the story is real, if you don’t believe it, there’s nothing futher I’m going to do about that.

Furthermore, I’ve watched the same thing happen to many people over the years. It’s not exactly an unusual situation - it’s very common.

As for the rider in the Klimke clinic, no, I’m not givin her name. It happened. But that same situation has also happened - many, many many times. Neither of those stories are unusual.

YOU ALL choose to concentrate on the people you see that buy costly horses and have trouble riding them because that’s what makes YOU feel better you are better than them, and because you like to see people fail, and feel clever and smug.

Who ME? I don’t think so. It makes me feel very, very badly for them, and I don’t like to see naive people repeatedly given advice that results in their frustration and unhappiness. I like to see people, particularly my friends, do well. I love a heartwarming success story as much as anyone. I’ve helped quite a few people buy appropriate, affordable horses and have been really happy for them when it worked out.

When people I know are overmounted, I frequently get the ride. So I suppose I should encourage them to buy inappropriate horses for my own benefit. But I would rather be a “wet blanket” than take advantage of people’s delusional dreams. Maybe I am in the minority, but I hope not.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=class;2883938]
newsflash to canticle: we are on the dressage board, talking about dressage horses.[/QUOTE]
Thank you!!! And I am just as welcome here with my $3000 horse as you are with your $30,000 horse. I am certainly NOT living with regrets, as I have made no mistakes by choosing the horse I did. I cherish my memories. Don’t you?

[class]

actually, the horse i am riding right now cost $500. what do i win? i must be better than everyone else because my horse was the cheapest and i love him the most.

[slc2]

You haven’t been smug about it, EC, but you sure have concentrated on that aspect of it - the failure side.

Remember, in the past here, when I even advised a CAUTIOUS approach or a stepwise approach to moving up, I got hooted down with catcalls and insults, and was ordered to ‘let the rider follow her dreams’. You guys sure are hypocritical!

And I think as usual, the threads you all get the most furious about are the ones that strike too close to your own emotions - anything that strikes a little too close to home - whooeey, look out.

I on the other hand have seen people do very well with these choices.

EVEN when they struggle - even very publicly, for a time.

People DO have to struggle to move up especially with that talented horse - but BOY there sure is someone out there rubbing their hands together and gloating any time someone has a problem, isn’t there? Bunch of little female vultures, is what you all turn into.

It depends on the person and how determined they are, and how well they choose the horse and what sort of help they are willing to accept, and how mentally (and physically) flexible they are.

No, the tiny little 86 lb woman isn’t going to do well on the 1600 lb tank that gallops into the double bridle like a world class house on fire, but she might do very well on a light, sensitive, very talented young warmblood who has been carefully and lightly schooled.

I knew a lady who did that - delightful danish gal - got herself a lovely smaller schoolmaster and did very well. And OH YES, the vultures were out there gloating any time she screwed up. No matter, those people are the losers. She had fun, and she, at least, was out there TRYING, instead of just whispering on the sidelines.

No, the person who won’t take lessons, won’t change how he rides, and thinks he knows it all, isn’t going to do well on ANY nice horse he buys.

But for DAMNED sure - the person who spends more money on pants, saddles, bridles, and riding jackets, is not going to do as well as the one who spends that same amount of money on horses and lessons.

[Cowgirl]

Oh for god’s sake don’t shoot the messenger! LOL!

A friend of mine and I were discussing this the other day. I think this particular topic is very closely linked to the USEF proposal for qualifying up the levels that alot of people are upset about too. My opinion is that what this is all about, and what people are upset about, is the reality that this is about the evolution of dressage in the US.

Yes “Dressage is about Training”…this is how dressage was sold in the US and how it became popular. Yes, dressage will improve every horse, BUT not every horse will be competitive or easy in the dressage training. A fact of life is that the purpose bred horses will have an easier time learning the exercises and moving up the levels. And the rider will have an easier time as well because some elements of the training scale might be innate in purpose bred horses. That is WHY the breeding of horses for dressage has evolved over decades. We are a far cry now from the military remounts and the dressage tests of yore. The horses have become built better and the tests more difficult. Europe is far ahead of us in this respect, way beyond “dressage is just about training and every horse can do it.” It is about dancing too, harmony, lightness and ease–and the horses of whatever breed who are more suitable to do the movements are going to have an easier time exhibiting the dance aspect of the sport. And they are going to be easier to train.

Sure you can have an individual of a breed who has more heart than physical capabilities who is going to try to do it for you, even though it’s hard. If you can recognize that heart quality while shopping, then yes, you might not have to spend much for a prospect who is going to be easier to train. And for an amateur training their first horse, the ease in training is important. And I think all that the article stated was to buy the horse whose going to have the easiest job of the training–it makes it all easier and more pleasant all around.

Anyone who has been showing knows that the riders who have horses who have innate qualities that are required in the tests are going to have an easier time getting the scores. If your horse has innate tick tock rhythm and you don’t have to train it, then you can focus on other things. It is not easy to ride a dressage test well, even at the most basic level. You have to ride perfect figures, prepare your horse, balance your horse, think of many different things AND remember the test AND deal with your horse’s reactions to a strange environment. If some of the things are a gimme–good rhythm, natural uphill balance, elastic paces that are easier to shape, it will all be easier. So I think that was the message and many people focused on the small thing in the article, which was the “how will I get that kind of horse” part. She suggested financing, but there are many roads to Rome. You can also buy a foal fairly inexpensively and pay to raise it over time; you can buy a spectacular individual from a non traditional breed if you have a very very good eye; you can lease, etc. Or you can choose to ignore this advice, continue on with a horse not entirely built for the sport and see what you can make of it. That’s your decision to make. All it was was advice.

The fact of the matter is that the bar has raised for dressage in the US and we are now being asked to meet it. Deal with it, and move on.

[maresnest]

[QUOTE=JRG;2877316]
I was dismayed at the article. I think it sends the wrong message, the message I got was…you need to buy your way though the levels.[/QUOTE]

I was dismayed, too! It’s one thing to try to buy horses that can easily do their jobs (I agree with that point), but it’s quite another to tell people that taking out a loan to buy a horse is a reasonable thing to do.

@SerenaGinger;2877289

The best advice I got from a very successful business person was, “Never finance a hobby.”

AMEN!!

[Lambie_Boat]

I remember a similar firestorm in reaction to an article written by Leslie Webb encouraging the practice of ‘trading up’ and allowing your ex-mount to help train a rider just starting out. Anyone else remember that?

Thank you Eliza. Thank your mother too. I’m sure she must have known her article would have some knickers in a twist. Many people have been raised as children to believe they can be President if they work hard enough. Many women read and believe in The Secret.

But as my dear husband says, you don’t take a Pekingese dog out coon hunting, so why the outrage? Not every baller is Michael Jordon.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Cowgirl;2884156]
Oh for god’s sake don’t shoot the messenger! LOL!

A friend of mine and I were discussing this the other day. I think this particular topic is very closely linked to the USEF proposal for qualifying up the levels that alot of people are upset about too. My opinion is that what this is all about, and what people are upset about, is the reality that this is about the evolution of dressage in the US.

Yes “Dressage is about Training”…this is how dressage was sold in the US and how it became popular. Yes, dressage will improve every horse, BUT not every horse will be competitive or easy in the dressage training. A fact of life is that the purpose bred horses will have an easier time learning the exercises and moving up the levels. And the rider will have an easier time as well because some elements of the training scale might be innate in purpose bred horses. That is WHY the breeding of horses for dressage has evolved over decades. We are a far cry now from the military remounts and the dressage tests of yore. The horses have become built better and the tests more difficult. Europe is far ahead of us in this respect, way beyond “dressage is just about training and every horse can do it.” It is about dancing too, harmony, lightness and ease–and the horses of whatever breed who are more suitable to do the movements are going to have an easier time exhibiting the dance aspect of the sport. And they are going to be easier to train.

Sure you can have an individual of a breed who has more heart than physical capabilities who is going to try to do it for you, even though it’s hard. If you can recognize that heart quality while shopping, then yes, you might not have to spend much for a prospect who is going to be easier to train. And for an amateur training their first horse, the ease in training is important. And I think all that the article stated was to buy the horse whose going to have the easiest job of the training–it makes it all easier and more pleasant all around.

Anyone who has been showing knows that the riders who have horses who have innate qualities that are required in the tests are going to have an easier time getting the scores. If your horse has innate tick tock rhythm and you don’t have to train it, then you can focus on other things. It is not easy to ride a dressage test well, even at the most basic level. You have to ride perfect figures, prepare your horse, balance your horse, think of many different things AND remember the test AND deal with your horse’s reactions to a strange environment. If some of the things are a gimme–good rhythm, natural uphill balance, elastic paces that are easier to shape, it will all be easier. So I think that was the message and many people focused on the small thing in the article, which was the “how will I get that kind of horse” part. She suggested financing, but there are many roads to Rome. You can also buy a foal fairly inexpensively and pay to raise it over time; you can buy a spectacular individual from a non traditional breed if you have a very very good eye; you can lease, etc. Or you can choose to ignore this advice, continue on with a horse not entirely built for the sport and see what you can make of it. That’s your decision to make. All it was was advice.

The fact of the matter is that the bar has raised for dressage in the US and we are now being asked to meet it. Deal with it, and move on.[/QUOTE]

YES - BUT… All this addresses the person who is a determined young rider, accomplished pro, or dedicated amateur WITH some money. If all the Ammies who ride horses that are “unsuitable” in one degree or another stopped “doing dressage”, YOU WOULD HAVE NO SHOWS. The comment in the article about $5K horses did not address the idea of buying a baby (what I did) from a non-traditional breed (ditto), but still suitable for dressage. It said look forever (but some people already have a horse and have to make do) for that one in a million that will have FEI potential but costs only $5K now, or finance the big horse/big gaits. Had she addressed the editorial to those YRs, pros and wealthy ammies, no one would disagree. But basically - though apparently from Eliza’s posting it was unintentional - it comes across as “if you don’t want to spend the money on the appropriate expensive horse, forget about dressage.” It says (again apparently unintentionally) that if you are an ammy, happy to strive to reach MAYBE 2nd or 3rd level, on whatever horse you happen to have, you are wasting your time.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=feisomeday;2884252]
But as my dear husband says, you don’t take a Pekingese dog out coon hunting, so why the outrage? Not every baller is Michael Jordon.[/QUOTE]
What about dog obedience, or even agility? Myriads of breeds (and mutts too) succeed at agility. If the Australian Shepherd people came along one day and tried to sell us the line that THEIR breed was the ONE TRUE agility breed, you can bet that people would be outraged! You can promote your breed without arguing that it is the best breed. Some people prefer smaller dogs, different temperaments, different coat type, etc.

Back to dressage: rated showing is only a tiny sliver of the dressage world. I wonder how many people who ride dressage really have FEI aspirations? The ultra-competitive type is such a small minority, so let’s step out of our bubbles and look at the big picture. Most people ride dressage to improve their horse’s obedience, training, balance, way of going. The moment you tell people to get a new or “better” pet, you have completely turned them off to dressage! The horse is the CONSTANT; dressage is just a means to an end!

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=dkcbr;2883591]
Better natural gaits (a.k.a. purpose-bred horses) are more likely to train up more easily into correct, supple, elastic, upper level dressage horses.

Train the best horse you can afford for your goals.

Getting a loan to buy a horse that has the natural ability to be more easily trained to upper level dressage is an option. The loan is one option, among others.

Really, it’s so simple and so not an outrage.[/QUOTE]

But if you are an avg ammie, you can not train that horse yourself no matter how much more easily trained he is. Thus it will cost you time and money to train it. Heck most upperlevel riders need to have an educated pair of eyes on the ground just to school the upper level movements lest they end up schooling error ridden movements, over and over.

Someone earlier posted a porposed budget for this situation and priced the board at $6k for a year
HA!
Avg board around here is that. Board at a BNT barn is double that if not more.
That is without training rides and lessons that the avg ammie WILL need to learn to ride that bigger moving horse.

[Donella]

YOU ALL choose to concentrate on the people you see that buy costly horses and have trouble riding them because that’s what makes YOU feel better you are better than them, and because you like to see people fail, and feel clever and smug.

I am starting to really notice that theme on this board too.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how much it hurts feelings, the most talented animals in the sport were bred for the sport and they are the cream fo the crop and these animals are priced accordingly. If you have MAJORLY competative goals…ie Nationals/International then you will need to outfit yourself accordingly.

If this is your goal you have two options. Refuse to accept reality and boohoo about it or figure out a way to get with the program. I like to run…I like to run long distance runs. I will never be the best runner in the world because I am not derived from the appropriate genetics (note how even in human sports…certain races totally and compeltely dominate many althetic persuits). If I want to win or do well in the tevis cup…then I had better get out there and find that top arab. If I want to win in Schutzhund training…I will get with reality and buy a top GSD from pure working lines where every dog in the pedigree is a Schtz 3. If I want to win the Kentucky derby…yeah, you probably guessed I am not going to buy just your random percheron or TWH…I am going to buy a very specifically bred TB to give me the best chances. If I want to win WC jumping finals…mmm…I am not going to go buy a qh,…or even some WB’s ie something with Lauries Crusador or some other strictly dressage stallion up close. Come on guys…this CANNOT be that difficult to understand.

The world isnt always fair or about “having a good time”…competition is competition. The best team wins. You can be the best rider you want…but that is only half of the team!

And you can do this for under 20 k…just depends how. If you are very ambitious and a good rider you could buy a 12 k yearling, put 8 k into upkeep and training and you will have a horse that is going solid WTC that you can develope. That is the best chance. If you cant develope that horse yourself from WTC then national goals are probably not realistic.

[egontoast]

Never finance a hobby? Why not? Life is short. Try to enjoy it.

I’d rather be in debt and living the life I want to live than pinching pennies and waiting ,waiting, waiting until I’m too old to enjoy my ‘hobby’. If not for my ‘hobby’ I would not have a farm. Farm is paid for but there’s a mortgage for the arena so I guess I’m financing a hobby. Tsk Tsk

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;2884254]
YES - If all the Ammies who ride horses that are “unsuitable” in one degree or another stopped “doing dressage”, YOU WOULD HAVE NO SHOWS.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention no one to market your saddles to.
Or your breeches.
Or your clinics, lessons and videotapes and books.
Not to mention magazines.
And saddle pads.
And gloves.
And jackets.
And whips.
Or those Warmblood horses for that matter!

I think you get the idea.
While ALL of us would probably love to wave a magic wand and spend at least a day in the boots of any BNT/BNR… MOST of the financial base for horse sports are those of us who are in the ammie ranks for the foreseeable future and spend all kinds of money on all manner of stuff designed to make us better riders and support the businesses/aspirations of the BNT/BNRs.

I get that Ms Sydnor maybe could have expressed her regret for not riding more suitable horses from day 1 in this “What I Wish I had known” article perhaps, as someone suggested by writing in first person.
But then She is who she is BECAUSE she rode those other, less suitable, stiff, tight,… horses isn’t she?
So maybe they were not so much a waste of her time after all?
shrug

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=egontoast;2884505]
Never finance a hobby? Why not? Life is short. Try to enjoy it.

I’d rather be in debt and living the life I want to live than pinching pennies and waiting ,waiting, waiting until I’m too old to enjoy my ‘hobby’. If not for my ‘hobby’ I would not have a farm. Farm is paid for but there’s a mortgage for the arena so I guess I’m financing a hobby. Tsk Tsk :)[/QUOTE]

Alas I did that until I got married. Now I think my ‘partner’ might object!

[Cowgirl]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;2884254]
YES - BUT… All this addresses the person who is a determined young rider, accomplished pro, or dedicated amateur WITH some money. If all the Ammies who ride horses that are “unsuitable” in one degree or another stopped “doing dressage”, YOU WOULD HAVE NO SHOWS. The comment in the article about $5K horses did not address the idea of buying a baby (what I did) from a non-traditional breed (ditto), but still suitable for dressage. It said look forever (but some people already have a horse and have to make do) for that one in a million that will have FEI potential but costs only $5K now, or finance the big horse/big gaits. Had she addressed the editorial to those YRs, pros and wealthy ammies, no one would disagree. But basically - though apparently from Eliza’s posting it was unintentional - it comes across as “if you don’t want to spend the money on the appropriate expensive horse, forget about dressage.” It says (again apparently unintentionally) that if you are an ammy, happy to strive to reach MAYBE 2nd or 3rd level, on whatever horse you happen to have, you are wasting your time.[/QUOTE]

See, I disagree. I didn’t get that tone from the article. I got more of the tone of “If I had to do it all over again, I’d make it easier on myself and borrow the money to get a horse that would make this whole journey easier, more pleasant and get me quicker to learning the fine points of the sport.” I mean she’s right: if you have a horse that is so naturally built downhill and earthbound, you’ll spend MOST of your riding time trying to get it off the forehand and more elastic, and will never have time to get to the finer points of dressage riding–the cake part. You’ll spend a gazillion dollars trying to get to second level. Moreover, if you push that horse to do more than it really is built to do, you’ll put more wear and tear on it than you would on a horse that was born to do the job. To me, I get it. And I did it with my second horse by purchasing a weanling. I have a friend who is doing it through catch rides. Another friend who is breeding her own. Just because the author did not list out all the options does not mean that they aren’t there. She’s not insisting you get a loan–that’s probably just the easiest and quickest way to go about it though.

Let’s face it, this sport IS expensive. My board for my two horses and all the things they require every month is more than my mortgage. From that perspective, it is already elitist and each and every one of you belongs to a very privileged class. Even those that keep their horses at home and on pasture, and do it on a shoestring, are SO privileged. It’s just the way it is.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=Cowgirl;2884708]
See, I disagree. I didn’t get that tone from the article. I got more of the tone of “If I had to do it all over again, I’d make it easier on myself and borrow the money to get a horse that would make this whole journey easier, more pleasant and get me quicker to learning the fine points of the sport.” I mean she’s right: if you have a horse that is so naturally built downhill and earthbound, you’ll spend MOST of your riding time trying to get it off the forehand and more elastic, and will never have time to get to the finer points of dressage riding–the cake part. You’ll spend a gazillion dollars trying to get to second level. Moreover, if you push that horse to do more than it really is built to do, you’ll put more wear and tear on it than you would on a horse that was born to do the job. To me, I get it. And I did it with my second horse by purchasing a weanling. I have a friend who is doing it through catch rides. Another friend who is breeding her own. Just because the author did not list out all the options does not mean that they aren’t there. She’s not insisting you get a loan–that’s probably just the easiest and quickest way to go about it though.[/QUOTE]
The tone I detected was that Ms. Sydnor felt the rest of us are on the verge of making a huge mistake and desperately need her advice. I’m sorry if she regrets any of her decisions to ride/train/own certain horses, but the rest of us love our horses dearly and would not trade them for anything. It is not a question of taking out a loan to buy a “better” horse. There is no better horse out there for me.

Perhaps Ms. Sydnor should stick to giving training advice which would actually be useful instead of trying to keep us from making the mistakes she thinks she made. I’ve made mistakes in life but none of them have been related to horse purchases, thank goodness! I’ll say it again, one cannot help but think that Ms. Sydnor is trying to drum up business by warning the dressage community en masse about the dangers of “unsuitable” horses (unsuitable for what?). I’ll take a wild guess and suggest that perhaps she has some “suitable” horses she’d like to try to sell us??? :yes:

[CatOnLap]

@cowgirl

Let’s face it, this sport IS expensive. My board for my two horses and all the things they require every month is more than my mortgage. From that perspective, it is already elitist and each and every one of you belongs to a very privileged class. Even those that keep their horses at home and on pasture, and do it on a shoestring, are SO privileged. It’s just the way it is.

It is fortunate, therefore that for many, competition is not a main goal, but the discipline and relationship with the horse becomes the ultimate joy. Because being competitive at dressage requires a great deal of money, but learning to ride and train and dance with your horse- any horse- does not. and can be done on a shoestring.

I would put forth that the learning can be done on most sound sane horses and the relationship can be completely immaterial to the athletic ability,breeding or cost of the horse.

Notwithstanding, if you can balance the payments on an expensive form of the hobby, why not? You will learn faster and better on a better horse with better training.

[Hazelnut]

Saved $$$$. Bought horse bred for dressage…He’s teaching me to ride with CORE. I love to watch him move. :yes: Love to see him in the arena mirrors and always think, Oh my God, that’s your horse!!! Gaits, very nice, but not too big for AA. LOVE having a very nice moving horse, great equine companion. He brings me joy. Worth every-single-penny.:yes:

I wanted to buy the best horse I could afford, I did, and I’m glad…but I did not go into debt. I could not do that…

I would spend my savings again, cause he’s a jewel!

Get the horse that brings you joy.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=Hazelnut;2884878]
Get the horse that brings you joy.[/QUOTE]
YES! :yes:

This is the only important thing!