[QUOTE=Hazelnut;2884878]
Get the horse that brings you joy.[/QUOTE]
I did.
For $1200.
And 16 years later he is STILL teaching me things about riding and life and myself.
Oh and he is a pretty incredible athlete that I enjoyed watching in mirrors way back when too. That is not exclusive to priceier horses.
AMEN! and celebrate having the horse that makes you HAPPY when YOU look in the arena mirrors-NOT the horse others tell you will make you happy.
[QUOTE=canticle;2884796]
I’m sorry if she regrets any of her decisions to ride/train/own certain horses, but the rest of us love our horses dearly and would not trade them for anything.[/QUOTE]
This train of thought, which started for me with her daughters response, has really started me thinking.
If Ms. Syndor is regretful for the path she took, on less super, not bred for Dressage horses and she has still reached what many of us would consider a pinnacle in Dressage,… then HOW should I feel? Suicidal? 16 years and Idonotwanttothinkabouthowmuch money later… and the best I can say is I’ve been told I have nice hands? EEks!
I worry that the sport is leaning towards accomplishments and away from the journey.
Focusing on showing and not training, gaits and not the whole package that creates the gaits or better allows the gaits.
That rather than learning from the horse you have we should be searching for a ‘better’ horse. What then? An ‘Even Better horse’? Who says our riding deserves a better horse?
Not all of us can (or want to) spend what to most amounts to ALOT of money on this. Fewer of us have the time to train for more than a handful of hours a week. We’re as serious about this as we can be, living in our own reality.
If Ms Syndor isn’t happy, even with all she has achieved, why should I even bother?
[QUOTE=Hazelnut;2884981]
AMEN! and celebrate having the horse that makes you HAPPY when YOU look in the arena mirrors-NOT the horse others tell you will make you happy.[/QUOTE]
Alas these days he is teaching me that in life, time for riding an elderly horse is hard to find if non-existant… that having an older horse at this stage of ones life is not really tha best combination (at least from my POV)… but that keeping that elderly horse in the best manner possible, regardless of it backburner-ing any riding goals I dared to have, is the right way to repay him for what he has given me over the years.
No more arena mirrors for us.
Disclaimer: I have not read the article in question, so not sure precisely what the author is stating. Just commenting below on what it takes to get a loan for a horse.
Just an FYI (and, also an FYI, I have not read this whole thread, it goes on for too freakin’ long) … when I wanted to get my first horse right out of college … and was prepared to make tremendous sacrifices to go as far as possible, I located my “dream horse” and then went to the bank to apply for said loan. They about laughed me out of the bank, explaining with no hesitation that horses were TOO HIGH RISK to be considered reasonable collateral … they would have considered a co-signer, but I was too proud to ask Mom and Dad …
In the end, I never took out the loan. The horse slipped thru my fingers and ended up going VERY HIGH in the levels (Y.R.) and for an extended period. He was still competing and teaching new kids new things at age 20! I stayed with what I could afford and as it turned out, what I could afford just wasn’t always ultimately the soundest beast on the block.
When I stayed within my budget, I bought lesser quality horses for horses #1, #2, and #3 … they were ultimately plagued with soundness issues and/or disease (#1 -chronic colic- necropsy revealed small colon ulcers, #2 a calcification in the shoulder at age 5, and #3 EPM). This took me thru 15 years of reduced accomplishments and progress.
Only recently at age 42 have I been able to afford the quality needed to have any prayer of attaining my goals – goals sidelined by becoming a nursemaid to my beloved horses and trying to fix soundness problems that always seemed to have every vet from Cleveland to OSU to Rood and Riddle just scratching their heads.
People can say what they want and will surely have opinions on this example … of course the outcome might have been different, or even the same with higher quality horses (soundness and disease). … Sadly, the outcome was NOT different … and for those who are quick to criticize … I did not progress because I put my horses well-being in front of mine. Trust me, I have the debt to prove it.
I don’t regret putting the horses FIRST one bit … but am a little embarassed to say how much money I have thrown at horses for so little advancement … but that is just my story … I stuck with only the facts, here. While I am not bitter and in fact appreciate every moment with my horses … there is a small voice inside of me that begs the question: What if I had only taken out that loan to get that first horse who ended up on magazine covers later on and was SOUND into his 20’s? We’ll never really know the answer (which is best, actually - we aren’t meant to KNOW ALL in life).
Magnum
[QUOTE=magnum;2885138]
Disclaimer: I have not read the article in question, so not sure precisely what the author is stating. Just commenting below on what it takes to get a loan for a horse.
Just an FYI (and, also an FYI, I have not read this whole thread, it goes on for too freakin’ long) … when I wanted to get my first horse right out of college … and was prepared to make tremendous sacrifices to go as far as possible, I located my “dream horse” and then went to the bank to apply for said loan. They about laughed me out of the bank, explaining with no hesitation that horses were TOO HIGH RISK to be considered reasonable collateral … they would have considered a co-signer, but I was too proud to ask Mom and Dad …
In the end, I never took out the loan. The horse slipped thru my fingers and ended up going VERY HIGH in the levels (Y.R.) and for an extended period. He was still competing and teaching new kids new things at age 20! I stayed with what I could afford and as it turned out, what I could afford just wasn’t always ultimately the soundest beast on the block.
When I stayed within my budget, I bought lesser quality horses for horses #1, #2, and #3 … they were ultimately plagued with soundness issues and/or disease (#1 -chronic colic- necropsy revealed small colon ulcers, #2 a calcification in the shoulder at age 5, and #3 EPM). This took me thru 15 years of reduced accomplishments and progress.
Only recently at age 42 have I been able to afford the quality needed to have any prayer of attaining my goals – goals sidelined by becoming a nursemaid to my beloved horses and trying to fix soundness problems that always seemed to have every vet from Cleveland to OSU to Rood and Riddle just scratching their heads.
People can say what they want and will surely have opinions on this example … of course the outcome might have been different, or even the same with higher quality horses (soundness and disease). … Sadly, the outcome was NOT different … and for those who are quick to criticize … I did not progress because I put my horses well-being in front of mine. Trust me, I have the debt to prove it.
I don’t regret putting the horses FIRST one bit … but am a little embarassed to say how much money I have thrown at horses for so little advancement … but that is just my story … I stuck with only the facts, here. While I am not bitter and in fact appreciate every moment with my horses … there is a small voice inside of me that begs the question: What if I had only taken out that loan to get that first horse who ended up on magazine covers later on and was SOUND into his 20’s? We’ll never really know the answer (which is best, actually - we aren’t meant to KNOW ALL in life).
Magnum[/QUOTE]
WOW- all I can say is- you should have asked your parents- and your story is captivating.
I am sad to hear that you have spent a lot of money since and not scored…
I believe once you have a really BAD case of what I call a ‘vet-horse’ you can become addicted- as it teaches you a behavior of consulting the vet at every corner for EVERYTHING.
Rarely are there truly healthy horses- and many times we make them unhealthy or coddle them toom much- just my 5 cents.
I would NOT take out a loan for a horse- NO! but I would buy and have bought at age 18month or 2 yrs to get a better price for an unproven horse. I think that’s the best way to get a good one- if your care is meticulous…!
[B]I believe once you have a really BAD case of what I call a ‘vet-horse’ you can become addicted- as it teaches you a behavior of consulting the vet at every corner for EVERYTHING.
Rarely are there truly healthy horses- and many times we make them unhealthy or coddle them too much- just my 5 cents.[/B]
Thank you Sabine, and what a nice post.
( … “My name is Magnum and I am a vet-aholic!” :lol::yes: )
I have since worked really hard to kick that nasty habit!
While my horses were and still are far from coddled (they don’t wear blankets and stay on full T.O. now that they are home and not at boarding stables), I agree I tried to hard to “over-engineer” their diseases/illnesses ( control freak! :lol: ) and also had to rely on boarding stables for their feed and care at that time. There was just a period of learning … I is a slow learner .
One of the hardest lessons in my life, PERIOD was this: my drive to cure the uncurable, stop the unstoppable was not always in the best interest of my horses, anyway.
BTW - KUDOS to SLC. This is some of your best posting yet! Thanks for calling a spade a spade, SLC.
Everyone enjoy your holidays!
Magnum
The central delusion still exists here that a cheap horse is somehow a better horse than an expensive horse. Mommy loves him more, or when he farts, it’s more wonderful.
I’ve had cheap horses, I’ve had expensive horses. I love them both. They both love me. And it took me a VERY long time to get rid of this same delusion most people have. It took me 3 horses and many years.
Only a few people are very clear about their horses limitations and are very smart about doing as much as they can, and stopping before things become uncomfortable, while still - achieving anything at all.
This one has sickle hocks, chances are, we aren’t going to get much past 2nd level before we start to have problems. This one has cow hocks. He’s gonna be workin’ pretty hard to do a pirouette at a canter, we may not get much further than 4th. This one is just a huge big heavy long guy, somethin’s gonna give before we get to show much as PSG. This one is a dainty little thing with very light bone and one crooked foot, cross our fingers and pray to the Gods.
No. No horse is perfect. Nope. But some are a hell of a lot more perfect than others.
It is VERY difficult to find an inexpensive horse with good enough conformation - just in the legs, let alone balance or talent for collection - that the horse is going to hold up for years of training! Ths is the central problem. The less naturally balanced a horse is, the more strain he puts on himself - for any kind of training in sport. Every step the horse takes, it puts wear and tear on his legs. If there is any flaw in those legs - it’s going to become very painfully obvious that it limits how much sport he can do.
I’ve seen it happen more times than not - in fact - though people don’t talk about it openly (they may want to sell the horse at a lower level, or not want to open themselves up to public criticism that they overdid with a horse). MOST of the horses people try to move up - become unsound. I’m not talking about the ones that compete comfortably on a maintenance program that keeps them comfortable - but about the ones that either further or harder work would cause too much discomfort, or they need to retire completely, or something in between. Some are just rotten luck, but a hell of a lot of them are horses that could NEVER have been expected to stay sound for this sort of work.
Developing impulsion and throughness for really top notch dressage - that isn’t easy on horses physically. It doesn’t happen with lazy hacks down the trail - but nor do horses stay sound if they’re mostly hacked and occasionally worked hard - they have to be in a program with sound, consistent, progressive training routine.
Sure. It’s not just the horse. The rider has to be very clever- those gallops or extended trots down the side of the road, those ‘oh what the hell’ gallops across the thick mud that pulls a shoe and injures a tendon - the ‘oh god I wish I hadn’t turned him out on that ice’ - every little decision one makes is crucial. Sometimes ‘shit happens’, but you better bloody well not be out there helping it happen!
Sabine, I know magnum well, and even SUGGESTING she is ‘vet addicted’ is absolutely absurd.
She has taken excellent care of her horses and always been very, very sensible with them. She has NEVER ‘over vetted’ or ‘under vetted’ them. She has not ‘gone looking’ for things - her horses are kept in a very natural, healthy environment, and they get excellent care - not fussy, over vetting.
She has, however, done as she said - she’s tried to be very cautious with money while still attempting to advance herself. She tried to find bargains. And it has, I believe, in her case, proven to be a very difficult road. Her situation is in fact, one I was thinking of when I wrote my posts.
People are throwing around all sorts of accusations. I’m not saying, and I don’t believe even Sydnor is saying, that everyone should despise their 2000 dollar horse or feel like crap if they don’t get a big loan and get a 50k horse - or even, if they simply don’t WANT to chart that sort of intense path, and enjoy just riding more casually.
It simply isn’t FOR everyone to get an expensive horse, show more intensely, and move up the levels - or to ride that intensely.
Most people are not going to say, ‘I am going to spend 150,000 dollars on an indoor arena and an appropriate horse for higher level goals, so I can keep the horses in work all winter, I’ll just do without the new kitchen, bathrooms, furniture and the new car for the next 10 years’. VERY FEW people are going to say that. VERY few people are going to say, 'No, I’m not going to Quarter Horse Congress, or the clinic in the next town to watch my friend, or to the movie tonight, or to the shopping outlet for the afternoon, because I have to ride". EVEN FEWER people are going to say that for 10 years, for 20 years every day, 5-6 days a week, - this is an UNUSUAL choice, to devote one’s self THAT MUCH - to any one thing.
When I was taking 5, 6 lessons a week, people told me, “GOD, I could NEVER stand that pressure, I would NEVER take more than 2 lessons a month, because I would rather trail ride, and just have fun around the barn, grooming my horse, and I don’t want someone telling me what to do all the time”.
This sort of thing isn’t for everyone. It just isn’t. But please - don’t try to find things to look down your nose about at these people. Don’t try to say, “I’m better than her because I love horsey more, because I don’t show as much or work that hard”, because that’s BULL.
But yes, there comes a point where people with the means do make choices to devote a great deal of resources to what they want to achieve. And I believe that get a horse that MATCHES one’s goals and aspirations and makes it possible within a lifetime, is the right thing to do. And I’m someone who understands how frivolous this can be - I’ve seen poverty and homelessness and some of the saddest situations in the world - and I still believe - people makes their choices.
For most people, that Right Horse isn’t going to mean buying an expensive horse at all. A domestic breed, trained to 2nd or 3rd level, especially a little older one, can be a real bargain, and allow the rider to learn a great deal about dressage, improving his posture and aids, and riding well at the lower levels - which is all most people want to do anyway.
It’s very strange. Riders tend to be far, far more sensible in show jumpers, eventing or even driving - many more people seem to buy older, trained horses that are serviceably sound, learn a lot and do very well for their means, show at appropriate levels, and do very well and be VERY happy with it.
Does anyone here - come on, pipe up - ANYONE - do you REALLY think those better horses are easy to ride?
I was watching a video of Hubertus Schmidt work Furst Fabio last night, he said, ‘This is the best mover I ever had’.
This horse was ALL OVER THE PLACE. He was just like a loose cannon. Hubertus was using every BIT of his very considerable skill to develop that horse. EVEN HE - one of the best trainers in the world, was having to really concentrate and at times be quite brave in letting go and trusting himself.
And below that, I have seen person after person after person, humbled by the wise old schoolmaster - even with the trainer there shouting, ‘No, no no, don’t do that!’ it is MURDER, people, to get on one of these brilliant horses and learn to be as sensitive, as reactive, as well trained as those horses. I’ve seen PLENTY of people get on that wise old schoolmaster and not even be able to post a 20 m trot circle after months!
You think it’s EASY - to get on a really nice horse (trained or young and talented, whatever kind of nice you want), and just sit there and grin while the ribbons roll in - you’re DELUDED, people! That’s crazy thinking!
Maybe when jumping is added it just makes people want to surivive, and they choose those older, trained horses - or maybe there are more trainers in those other sports, out there saying, ‘look, this just isn’t going to work the way you’re going about it - you’re going to be disappointed and angry in the end’. What is it, really, truthfully, about dressage? I think alot of it is lack of trainers - pure and simple, to keep people abreast of reality.
But for some very strange reason that I’ve never been able to figure out, the bulk of dressage riders seem to chart for themselves the most unimaginably unsuccessful way to reach their goals and stick like grim death to that path despite how obviously unhappy they are - and then come and complain bitterly at shows and bulletin boards, how much showing, judges and successful riders - suck.
Simply put, quite a few people don’t want That Horse. Instead of spending money on a practical, sensible purchase, they buy cheap horse after cheap horse (or at times just one and stagnate), thinking they’re going to get rich quick reselling them (or discover an Olympian in someone’s back yard) and learn dressage by some sort of - I don’t know - magic osmosis, without getting sufficient guidance. They fail. They fall in legions.
And in fact, they spend far, far MORE money going about this path than they EVER would getting one horse, a sensible, appropriate horse, working along with lessons, and they would be FAR more successful! And - they would be far less bitter and angry in the long run!
Buying horse after horse (or even just one and stagnating) with soundness problems and no training, for 20 years - while the rider knows nothing of dressage and struggles to grasp the basic concepts on an untrained, unwilling unsound horse with a scattering of expensive clinics here and there with various very disjointed approaches from widely different trainers…no. These people do not make progress. And BOY are they pissed!
They’re ESPECIALLY pissed when they see someone buy a little bit more horse and find some success! That just toasts 'em!
Sydnor was addressing riders who have ambitious goals to move up, and need the appropriate horse and she gave them permission to think about a practical, sensible path to reach their goals - like she wished she had.
I think what we really need to talk about here right now, is not all of Ms. Sydnor’s failings - but something a HELL of a lot closer to home - WHY in the name of heaven does the more average rider, with more limited goals - seem to so frequently craft SUCH a very unrealistic way of meeting those goals! I think the VERY emotional reaction to Sydnor’s article is just one more way to avoid this rather unpleasant reality.
>>>>>Only a few people are very clear about their horses limitations and are very smart about doing as much as they can, and stopping before things become uncomfortable, while still - achieving anything at all.<<<<<
Uh oh… the “L” word…
Seriously I do think the “L” word is the crux of the matter. To generalize, horses with fewer limitations TEND to be more expensive, and horses with more limitations TEND to be less expensive.
Thus it follows that if a rider has high dressage aspirations, it follows that he or she may - may - have to pay more to get a horse that has as few limitations (conformation, temperament, talent, soundness, age, whathaveyou) as possible to align with the rider’s goals.
“Limitations” does not mean “bad horse”, however. Just that there may be things that make it harder for a particular horse to excel in dressage competition, and easier for another particular horse to excel in dressage competition.
I guess it’s all about knowing what you want earlier rather than later, and selecting your horse based on your goals. That’s the reality, right?
SLC, that was an excellent and accurate post. Because I agree with and understand everything written, I find it so difficult to understand why others can’t see the truth. There are many subjects, this being one of them, that it is wasted time trying to get a minority opinion (like ours) across to the majority. There are many, many others that feel this way, even readers of this board, but they are wise and stay readers, not posters.
Coming from the jumping disciplines, I do understand why riders are more sensible about the mounts they select. A rider won’t get far with a horse that stops at fences, runs out, pulls a rail, rushes, etc. You’ll get whistled out of the ring or eliminated.
[QUOTE=slc2;2885194]
Does anyone here - come on, pipe up - ANYONE - do you REALLY think those better horses are easy to ride?[/QUOTE]
Maybe they aren’t really better then??? 
My horse IS easy to ride. THAT is what makes him SUPERIOR. :mad: Everyone who has ever ridden him comments on what a pleasure he is. People who felt it was beneath them to ride the little horse suddenly saw the light once they got on him. Seriously, I’ve lost track of the compliments.
What irks me about Ms. Sydnor’s article is the suggestion that I might have made a mistake? She knows nothing about me, yet she suggests that I might be wasting my time with my “unsuitable” little treasure. So her solution is to buy HER type of horse, which would be inferior for me, definitely more expensive, most likely less sound, arguably harder to ride and less of a pleasure to be around. Just so I can collect some $1 ribbons which I never wanted in the first place. :mad: Talk about wasted time!!!
slc wrote: “do you REALLY think those better horses are easy to ride?”
Well, my thought in the matter is "yes, they are provided…
…provided that the training has been correct!!!
This does not mean that a hot horse will suddenly start plodding along, nor that they suddenly will not feel as if you are sitting on a keg of dynamite. But, that energy is controled, contained, channeled.
Two big mistakes that I see in the developement. First of all, the contact is not correctly established in the horse before collection is begun; Second, the riders are not correctly balanced within the motion. When you take one, or both of these together, you are cruisin’ for a bruisen.
And by the way, I do not believe that the “better” horse must by necessity be a warmblood. When I say “better,” I mean a better conformation to do the job at hand.
D you have to be SO DEFENSIVE about what you’ve chosen to do that you have to attack ANYONE who even DISCUSSES something even SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT?
Good lord, Canticle!
No - actually, being ‘easy to ride’ is NOT the pinnacle of competitive achievement! It is the epitome of being a family horse, a beloved pet, a teacher and kind companion!
A ferarri isn’t easy to drive - a formula 1 racing car isn’t easy to drive! It takes immense skill and experience. The car that IS easy to drive probably isn’t going to win the damned race!
I’ve had the sweetheart horse who was easy to ride, who was so forgiving - that horse is a teacher, a one in a million beloved companion, and never to be forgotten, and I will love him and remember him til the day I die. Longe him before you ride? Ha! Worry that he might be a little HOT that day? Never! Just take those reins on the buckle and off you go down the trail…or go in the ring and do dressage if you want.
NOTHING will change that! But that horse ISN’T going to win in big competition! EVER! All that sweet, quiet nature that made him perfect for what we wished for - went against him in competition.
He simply could not do it. A horse cannot make a miracle happen - he couldn’t make his conformation change and make it easy for him to do that work!
Fit as a fiddle, he was still exhausted after an FEI test - and we said - enough! He’s done more than anyone could EVER expect - we love him for trying so hard, but it is ENOUGH ALREADY!
OF COURSE I don’t care! What he did for me was the job he was chosen to do, the job we so loved him for, that we so hoped we would find he was able to do - and which he never once let us down or wasn’t a perfect gentleman.
But for heaven’s sake, I also know what he ISN’T - that doesn’t make him any less to me because he was JUST what I needed at that time - he was ‘perfect’!
But I am at least realistic about what other types of horses there are out there and what it takes to do each job!
The jockey Bill Shoemaker also probably loved and valued the horse he first learned to gallop on - but he didn’t ride him the friggin’ Kentucky Derby - and he didn’t get pissed off at the horse or rider that won! And he didn’t sit there and pretend the horse was something he wasn’t, or that the Kentucky Derby winner didn’t have his own sort of value and worth! You have to have some sort of sense of that.
Without realistic expectations or understanding of these issues - you have nothing. You will never be at peace or satisfied with what you do, or accept gracefully what anyone else does - no matter what you do - you will always be looking at other people and feeling angry and disappointed and defensive about your choices. And that to me is an incredible shame.
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;2885060]
This train of thought, which started for me with her daughters response, has really started me thinking.
If Ms. Syndor is regretful for the path she took, on less super, not bred for Dressage horses and she has still reached what many of us would consider a pinnacle in Dressage,… then HOW should I feel? Suicidal? 16 years and Idonotwanttothinkabouthowmuch money later… and the best I can say is I’ve been told I have nice hands? EEks!
I worry that the sport is leaning towards accomplishments and away from the journey.
Focusing on showing and not training, gaits and not the whole package that creates the gaits or better allows the gaits.
That rather than learning from the horse you have we should be searching for a ‘better’ horse. What then? An ‘Even Better horse’? Who says our riding deserves a better horse?
Not all of us can (or want to) spend what to most amounts to ALOT of money on this. Fewer of us have the time to train for more than a handful of hours a week. We’re as serious about this as we can be, living in our own reality.
If Ms Syndor isn’t happy, even with all she has achieved, why should I even bother?[/QUOTE]
I think that perhaps what the 2 Ms. Syndors are saying is that we learn from riding ALL different kinds of horses-- including the really good ones, and it was just as much a mistake to nurture that “reverse snobbism” that comes from taking less talented horses up the levels as it is to ride only the highest quality horse flesh in the interests of “winning.” Please note that what Cindy says she discovered was that riding higher quality horses with naturally excellent gaits made her a “better rider.” Having been blessed with a truly gifted horse at one point in my life, I believe I understand what she means. Just as riding a correctly trained schoolmaster is invaluable for learning how to administer correct aids to any horse, so also, the experience of riding horses with exceptionally good gaits helps enormously not only to learn how to sit them, but also to learn what they feel like, and from this, how to help less talented horses use themselves better. I vividly remember, for example, learning from my youngster with the natural, almost irrepressible medium trot, how finally to succeed at coaxing good lengthenings from my less gifted older horse. Her natural rhythm helped my sense of rhythm, her natural activity from behind helped me recognize what I needed to help my older horses improve their balance. Her balance improved mine. In short, although she couldn’t teach me the various movements, she was like a natural born schoolmaster as far as teaching me how to ask for and not interfere with quality gaits was concerned. When I consider what I learned from her, I often wonder how truly “limited” various horses I thought simply incapable of lengthening really were-- i.e., were they really incapable, or was the problem really that I didn’t have enough experience with riding lengthenings to know how to ask for them?
There is a saying: “what nature (or good breeding) gives, you don’t have to train.” IMO, what this ends up meaning is that these naturally gifted and therefore more expensive horses have very important roles to play in training us. This is not, IOW, just about being serious about competing, but in recognizing the very real intrinsic value of the justifiably expensive sport horses being bred these days. Breeding is, after all, an art, just as training and riding are, with good breeders contributing enormously to what riders and trainers can accomplish not just in competition, but in striving for the exhilaration of excellence wherever we venture with our horses.
I would like to point out, too, that Cindy is not saying “you need to spend five figures to get a quality horse, and if you don’t have the money, go borrow it.” If I read her correctly, what she’s saying is that we should not be so conscious of our financial limitations that we only look at lesser quality stock without even exploring what “the best we can afford” might be. What I think she’s advising against is the all too common phenomenon in which people buy too cheap, too quickly-- which can be (as many others have pointed out), a very “penny wise, pound foolish” approach both to horse shopping and to trying to improve ourselves as riders. She wants us to explore our many very real options, whether they are shopping longer and harder for the right horse at the right price, buying younger, cutting back on other expenses, and/or investigating financing (which many people do) in order to acquire the best horse possible for our own situations.
I do, BTW, think Cindy is probably very happy with her journey-- because not only does she keep on learning, but now she is also in the enviable position of continuing that journey with her beautiful daughter, who’s further expanding her view of dressage and the limitless opportunities for improvement it affords. It truly is not about what we achieve, but about continuing to make progress from wherever we have been before.
Go into debt for a horse???
Of course, at any price. Is there any other way? The purchase price of the horse is simply the down payment. It costs as much to keep a good horse as a bad horse. The price is relative; $150 might be a lot for a child and a first pony, $1500 might be a lot for a college student, $15,000 might be a lot for someone supporting a family. But, no matter what, the purchase price is a drop in the bucket compared to keeping and training the horse.
It is like buying a car. You can buy a $500 clunker and get collision insurance, or you can buy a $25,000 sedan and buy comprehensive insurance. Either one might break down at a moment’s notice, and either one might go forever.
It all depends on the goals of the owner. Do you want to travel in style? Do you want to travel safely, or both? Do you want to compete, do you want to learn or both?
Everyone on this board is a serious rider who wants to move up the levels, whether they show or not. It’s the nature of dressage. We can’t generalize what will work best for most riders. I’ve seen expensive horses break down, and I’ve seen many a rider overmounted on expensive horses. I’ve seen cheap horses break down, and I’ve seen many a rider over their heads trying to train green horses.
The bottom line is that learning dressage is usually a series of horses. The usable life of any horse is about 10 years, if we’re very lucky. Most of us learning dressage seriously will train 30 or more years. Few riders are allowed the luxury of their first horse being their last horse. Many of us make concessions in our education to be able to keep the horse we love. There is nothing wrong with that either.
The price of the horses goes up as riders advance in skills and can handle more athleticism. There is a definite first horse every new rider should buy. You can’t put a price on safety. There is a very special second horse most intermediates should buy–and that is where I see most riders making the most expensive mistakes. The horse on which we are going to place our Grand Prix dreams should normally be the third or fourth horse.
It is the education of the rider and the welfare of the horse that are paramount. Making the right match is more critical than the price tag. But will you go in debt? You’ve all heard the old joke: how do you make a small fortune in horses? Start with a large one!
you will always be looking at other people and feeling angry and disappointed and defensive about your choices.
I am getting a different vibe from this thread. I don’t think people are angry and disappointed about their choices so much as they are angry and disappointed at the direction dressage has taken - away from training, rider skill, and hard work, and more towards horse talent and ‘buying your way’.
For decades we’ve heard dressage is about training, and any horse can do it, work hard and ride well and you’ll make it. But not any more, and now as people have to come to terms with the fact that it really is not just about training and riding well, but equally as much about the horse and money, this realization can be pretty discouraging. It can be even more discouraging when people act as if it’s a waste of time to ride anything but one of the expensive horses, when you know you can’t (now or ever) afford one of them. This may not have been exactly what the author meant, but I can see how people are reading it this way.
Perhaps it would be nice and easier if everyone could just buy talented trained horses from the start (except then we’d hear a new outcry, because with a level playing field it would come full circle back to training and riding skill, which would be a good thing, but a lot of the people trying to ‘buy their way’ wouldn’t be happy about it.)
However, don’t discount what you can learn from riding a lesser horse. After all, if you can master the skill to be successful on a $1000 horse, imagine how well prepared you will be if you ever do get the $50000 horse, and unlike many of the examples of people who bought expensive horses and then ruined them or had to turn them over to a pro, you will actually be able to ride yours.:yes:
[QUOTE=slc2;2885397]
D you have to be SO DEFENSIVE about what you’ve chosen to do that you have to attack ANYONE who even DISCUSSES something even SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT?
Good lord, Canticle!
No - actually, being ‘easy to ride’ is NOT the pinnacle of competitive achievement! It is the epitome of being a family horse, a beloved pet, a teacher and kind companion!
A ferarri isn’t easy to drive - a formula 1 racing car isn’t easy to drive! It takes immense skill and experience. The car that IS easy to drive probably isn’t going to win the damned race.[/QUOTE]
Why are you so obsessed with competition??? That’s your thing, and I’m glad you’re having fun with it, but let’s keep it in perspective please. Don’t denigrate “easy to ride” because it is not YOUR pinnacle! You have no idea what qualities other people are striving for. For most people “easy to ride” is VERY important and it doesn’t make you a better rider just because you played the martyr and chose difficult.
And OF COURSE people should choose their own goals, I’m all for that! But when it is published in a NATIONAL magazine that those on a different path are making mistakes or wasting time, then it becomes a bigger issue. Is DT taking an official stance on the issue? Like I said, they will be alienating most of their subscribers if they tell them to change their goals. :no:
I wonder how much the borrowing to buy expensive horses (20-50,000 and above) is actually encouraged to PROP up the faltering horse market?
Sure there are those that can afford to take a loan for that amount and pay it off. There are those that will struggle and may have to miss payments on other things or not take lessons, or provide a lesser amount of training for the horse. There are people who will default as well and the bank ends up with the horse and sells it for little or nothing to get something out of the deal.
I do wonder how many people are led down the primrose path into debt by being told that “you can’t win unless you have a higher caliber horse” or they are talked into it by being told, that the horse will increase in value, etc."
Perhaps to prop up an industry that couldn’t keep it’s momentum if people didn’t finance horses, go into debt for training, showing and lessons as the horse industry is taking major hits right now due to the general economy.
I don’t care if people buy boats, jetskis, horses, or what have you…as long as they can afford to pay for it. However, in the matter of a horse…if a job is lost, the payments still have to be made, the board/training/vet care, etc. paid and most banks just see a horse as an “asset” to be sold and don’t care who it goes to or where, as long as they are paid something. I don’t think I would want to subject a horse to that situation.
There are no guarantees that any of us will be employed always…would you risk your horse being repossessed and sold at auction to just “anyone” with the money because you lost your job and couldn’t afford the payments? I couldnt’ do that to one of mine. and it does happen, I’ve worked for attorneys who handled bank repo’s and you’d be surprised as some of the caliber of horses that are repo’d and run through the nearest, closest, fastest sale barn for whatever the bank can get for them. As they do not want to invest any money in upkeep in an asset that costs them money every single day and returns nothing if no one is riding said pony or showing it (which costs the bank even more money). Occasionally you do have a bank officer that understands but even they have limits as to how long they can keep a horse on the “payroll” before running it through a sale.
Not a chance I would want to take with my horse.
your point has been responded to many times, very adequately.
We hear over and over ‘dressage means training’ because the word ‘dresser’ in French means to train or prepare. But who is so naive as to imagine that this is more than a popular slogan to get people involved? Or to SUGGEST - that perhaps, in the original spirit of the art, that there are more important things - even at a competition - than…winning? And that everyone can find a way in which to value competition, whether they get a blue ribbon or not?
Improving horse and rider in dressage is about training - practicing, taking lessons, working hard.
Winning, in competition, in TOUGH competition, against the best riders, it requires more than just making accurate circles, obedient transitions at the letter - a neat salute, proper attire. When everyone is well trained - to win requires more than just good training.
It always has. This is not something that has changed.
When I was showing in dressage, I rode several very, very limited horses. I did not have unrealistic expectations. I did not expect to beat the horses that were stronger, more athletic or more able to do the work. I expected to better - MYSELF…AS A RiDER. I did not care if I won or not. I cared if I bettered my last score, if I was A BETTER RIDER.
How is it that people have gotten such a sense of entitlement that they feel now competition should be taylored to them, so they can get a ribbon each time they go to a show? Or do we need to have an ‘everyone is a winner’ division where everyone gets a blue ribbon, like the Special Olympics (that even the Special Olympics participants didn’t like - as my autistic friend told me, “I don’t want a baby Special Olympics, I want a real Special Olympics, with a real first, second and third place”).
[QUOTE=Atlantis;2885516]
I am getting a different vibe from this thread. I don’t think people are angry and disappointed about their choices so much as they are angry and disappointed at the direction dressage has taken - away from training, rider skill, and hard work, and more towards horse talent and ‘buying your way’.
For decades we’ve heard dressage is about training, and any horse can do it, work hard and ride well and you’ll make it. But not any more, and now as people have to come to terms with the fact that it really is not just about training and riding well, but equally as much about the horse and money, this realization can be pretty discouraging. It can be even more discouraging when people act as if it’s a waste of time to ride anything but one of the expensive horses, when you know you can’t (now or ever) afford one of them. This may not have been exactly what the author meant, but I can see how people are reading it this way.
Perhaps it would be nice and easier if everyone could just buy talented trained horses from the start (except then we’d hear a new outcry, because with a level playing field it would come full circle back to training and riding skill, which would be a good thing, but a lot of the people trying to ‘buy their way’ wouldn’t be happy about it.)
However, don’t discount what you can learn from riding a lesser horse. After all, if you can master the skill to be successful on a $1000 horse, imagine how well prepared you will be if you ever do get the $50000 horse, and unlike many of the examples of people who bought expensive horses and then ruined them or had to turn them over to a pro, you will actually be able to ride yours.:yes:[/QUOTE]
Thank you!
