Go into debt for a horse???

[Donella]

First of all…to all of you who haven’t noticed…dressage is a SPORT. It is an Olympic discipline. When something is a sport…there is competition. Competition means to compete. Horses are half of the picture…a real big half of it. I think if you can grasp this…then you can maybe get over the “we don’t like the emphasis they are taking off of the rider” thing.

No…they aren’t taking the emphasis off the rider. The emphasis is on BOTH the horse and rider, so just like the ammy who can’t ride her GP schoolmaster she bought, the person who is an excellent rider with an incapable horse is also not going to be successful in competition. WHAT IS SOOOOO HARD to grasp about this!?

This post is all about what to do if you want to advance in the sport. Ie BOTH horse and rider need to be at the same place. If you dont wanna advance in that way, in the sport, then thats fine. But don’t be delusional in regards to the fact that it is a sport and it is competative and you do need a capable partner.

Actually , I think one can pretty much tell where each poster on here is in terms of their riding because anyone who is truly ambitious in competition will have figured out by now that not any horse can collect ie be successful in this sport and the ones that can sure as hell are not cheap.

SLC…excellent posts. I can tell you are in touch with reality and have probably gotten alot farther because of it.

[slc2]

A few years ago, I would have said all the same things as Angel and Canticle.

And I was mired in all those same thinking patterns for quite some time.

When I got rid of all that, I was a lot happier, I had appreciation for what a whole HECK of a lot more people out there were doing, I never felt jealous or unhappy or defeated at after a show, if I didn’t like what someone was doing, it was what I was doing that I didn’t like, not someone else. If things were not going as I liked - I looked at ME - What should I be doing different, not the rest of the world, not someone else. I didn’t blame the judges, how the sport is organized, other people - just ME. And if something needed to change, it would be me. I don’t score well? I don’t bitch about the judges, I work harder. And guess what - it’s always worked! Even with the crappiest horse in the world, wonders of wonders.

All of a sudden, I could appreciate just as well the rider on the ancient quarter horse just barely posting the trot, JUST as well as I could be comfortable with that wealthy gal on the super warmblood wining the FEI class - I could appreciate the effort of both, and both types of horses, and not saying some fake ‘bless her heart’, but feeling it - really feeling that and being HAPPY about it.

I could love that old sweetheart horse of mine MORE (if that is even friggin possible) - as well as understand a tiny bit of what it takes to climb that competition ladder and make some very, very different choices and take a very different direction. Most of all, I was happy with my choices and what I had. And I was NOT unhappy about what the rest of the world was doing, either.

I don’t think ANYONE on this thread is honestly, really as far as this issue of getting a horse that matches the goal, ‘unhappy with how the sport of dressage is developing’, I think the indignant and hysterical freak out about the mention of the word ‘loan’ in the article, is a complete fake out.

I think ‘how the sport of dressage is developing’ at the Tournament of Winners or the national championships, even in the business of qualifying for 3rd level, or any of that - I think none of that has a whole heck of a lot to do with what affects them directly, and why they’re so unhappy. they are unhappy because they look at people winning and it makes them - jealous. Pissed. I think it galls people’s hides that they go to shows and they don’t win as much as they want - I think quite a few people don’t even VENTURE to shows, some NEVER did, the excuse always being, ‘it’s all about money, it’s so unfair, I can’t afford the winning horse’. And THIS - THIS is not a new problem. This has a lot to do with the psychology of competition, and how extremely difficult most (women, yes, women) find it to understand competition. And it totally distorts how people look at the issues Sydnor discussed, how they look at the sport, how they view others in the sport.

[see_u_at_x]

Atlantis, very well said. You hit the nail on the proverbial head. :yes:

[slc2]

“successful on a $1000 horse, imagine how well prepared you will be if you ever do get the $50000 horse”

this is right where Atlantis did NOT hit the nail on the head. And this was part of the point of the article - that every one ignored.

[Kathy_Johnson]

First of all…to all of you who haven’t noticed…dressage is a SPORT.

For some. But dressage is not a sport at the Spanish Riding School, nor at the Cadre Noir, nor at millions of backyards across the world. If people’s goals are to advance at shows, then buying up to a fancier horse makes lots of sense. But, it’s a sweeping generalization to assume that everyone wants to do dressage strictly for sport (if we define sport as horse showing). For many, dressage is an art, a hobby, a tradition, and a way of life that may or may not include competition. If dressage is indeed going the way of a commercialized, strictly competitive sport, then I can certainly understand why people might be up at arms when it is suggested the only way to advance in dressage is to buy a better horse.

[Reynard_Ridge]

What I find rather disturbing about this thread is the sense that there is only one way to do things.

Personally, I would never go into debt to purchase a horse. The things that interest me about dressage are all about harmony between horse and rider. I do not aspire to ride at the upper levels, nor will I ever compete at the national level.

This is all true for me. This does not preclude my being able to believe that for some riders, riders who have different goals and aspirations than I do, perhaps taking out a loan to purchase a suitable competition horse is a reasonable expectation. And I don’t think the fact that there are people with high level, national goals who want to take out a loan to buy the best horse that they can belittles my position at all.

I can truck around on my $700 Pony all happyhappyjoyjoy, dreaming dreamy dreams of harmony and lightness, knowing that it would be the height of delusion to think I could ever get to Devon on My Little Pony. But I can strive for, say, second level locally and be happy with that.

And sure, there are lots and lots of FOs (Friends of slc) stories out there of heartache and lost opportunity, money badly spent and people who end up overmounted and miserable, but hell, there are also lots of stories of people who ante up for a nice horse and do well with it. N’s-of-one, each and every story.

To sum it up: no matter how much paprika you sprinkle or how much Quicksilver you slather on, the world just ain’t black and white.

[sm1]

you still have to put in the best test to win. Money can give you can advantage (if you want to go into debt for that advantage, it’s fine with me).

An expensive horse isn’t going to guarantee you’ll end up winning unless you’re competing against professionals and competing as a serious sport. For most dressage people however, dressage is a hobby or an art (after all, most who compete at shows are not dressage professionals)… and a well ridden average horse can and does win over the expensive model poorly ridden.

[Velvet]

I haven’t read every reply, but I still wanted to say something to the original post. I think that the people saying you should invest in your education as a dressage rider FIRST are absolutely correct. Find the way to ride already trained horses. If this means being a slave for someone, do it! That is if you’re serious about the sport. If you aren’t that serious, then you shouldn’t be worried about spending a fortune because that would be foolish.

If you are serious and you get those rides and more education, then you can buy those horses for $3,000, invest your time and energy into them (as well as more on additional lessons) and make them worth $30,000. Then sell them and buy a better horse. Keep moving up the ladder. If something tragic happens to a horse, start over. It all adds to your education–and I thought THAT was the point of dressage. That you are always learning and always working on things with not only one horse for the rest of your life, but with many horses spread out over time.

I think going indebt when you are a beginner and you don’t have the funds is rather silly. If people really want to do it, I say let them. But I don’t suggest it to people, EVER. I would always advise them to stay within their budget because I’ve learned that you can never tell what will happen tomorrow. I think the person who wrote that you need to go indebt for a horse is not looking at the big picture, taking all people and situations into consideration, nor are they able to. So think outside the box, and take a reality check before you make such decisions.

JMO

[ToN_Farm]

Perhaps it would be nice and easier if everyone could just buy talented trained horses from the start (except then we’d hear a new outcry, because with a level playing field it would come full circle back to training and riding skill, which would be a good thing

That’s mostly what I see in the show ring today in my area. Nearly all of the horses competing at PSG and above (even most in the lower levels) are attractive horses with very good or better gaits. The winner will likely be the horse with the best training ridden by the rider with the most skill. So yeah…a good thing…and it’s happening!

I’ve got some more bad news for some of you. That is, that 50k doesn’t really buy much of a horse anymore. Surprise, Surprise. Therefore, no matter how much you spend and what quality you buy, there will always be people out there that can buy something even nicer and ride it even better.

FYI, the high price at recent PSI auction was over 700k Euro. This is the kind of price you buy for the International horses, not 50k.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson;2885746]
For some. But dressage is not a sport at the Spanish Riding School, nor at the Cadre Noir, nor at millions of backyards across the world. If people’s goals are to advance at shows, then buying up to a fancier horse makes lots of sense. But, it’s a sweeping generalization to assume that everyone wants to do dressage strictly for sport (if we define sport as horse showing). For many, dressage is an art, a hobby, a tradition, and a way of life that may or may not include competition. If dressage is indeed going the way of a commercialized, strictly competitive sport, then I can certainly understand why people might be up at arms when it is suggested the only way to advance in dressage is to buy a better horse.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for wonderful post.
Bodybuilding and cycling are sports as well. Yet, there are plenty of people enjoying those sports on daily bases and keeping themselves healthy and entertained by doing that.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;2885825]
I’ve got some more bad news for some of you. That is, that 50k doesn’t really buy much of a horse anymore. Surprise, Surprise. Therefore, no matter how much you spend and what quality you buy, there will always be people out there that can buy something even nicer and ride it even better.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and that’s another reason NOT to get in to the debt b/c of the $50K horse. I do know people who spend more than $50K on their dream horse and still didn’t get what they were hoping to get. No need to “keep up with the Joneses”

[Forego]

I came a little late to this trainwreck,and I have not read all the pages,but I was so shocked to see all the personal attacks on Cindy.
Cindy was my trainer for many years,she trains riders of many levels on many different breeds of horses.
She works hard to make your horse the best they can be,whatever their breed,I should know,my horses are Tbs.
It was never suggested in all my years there that I look for another horse,Cindy just made my horses the best they could be,and I am so grateful for all that she taught me.
Sometimes before you attack someones ethics on the internet,maybe you should learn a little more about them.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I’ve been watching this thread pop up on the forums page and have resisted giving my two cents worth…but, I just can’t help myself…I don’t want to rain on your parade but every time I see your post I think, “EEEEEKKKKK!!!”

Speaking from decades in the horse business, I know how tempting it is to buy a horse you can’t really afford. I suppose anyone who has been around horse showing for any length of time has been there. This is what I’ve learned… it feels so much better to have a horse you can afford to enjoy. It’s easier, if you own the horse right, to go to shows and enter the classes you want to enter, pay the inevitable vet bills, purchase the supplements (and, God forbid, Regumate!) and pay the farrier…not to mention training and board bills. It’s not that much fun to pay all of those expenses, plus interest and principle on a loan…oohhh…and don’t forget full mortality insurance.

It might be interesting to invest in a fabulous younger horse, bring it along for a year or two, sell it for a profit and eventually get yourself the horse of your dreams. Instant gratification is always fun at the moment but, in the long run, it’s probably not such a good idea.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=Forego;2885937]

Sometimes before you attack someones ethics on the internet,maybe you should learn a little more about them.[/QUOTE]

What…like the fact that most of the NICE horses she trains/rides belong not to her but a breeder that basically runs a puppy mill for horses…
The sires are good and they produce some great stock but in the end I do not see HER going into debt because the type of horses she wants others to buy (and sell their souls to the bank for) she herself doesn’t own.
I think one is CRAZY to go into debt when you do not have to. This to me is a bad choice and one I would stay away from.

It is usually “trainers” who impart such advice because they make their living off the debt of others.

[fish]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;2885872]
Thank you for wonderful post.
Bodybuilding and cycling are sports as well. Yet, there are plenty of people enjoying those sports on daily bases and keeping themselves healthy and entertained by doing that.[/QUOTE]

Quite so–but I also don’t hear them complaining because the relatively inexpensive equipment, etc., they use for such purposes would not cut the mustard if they did try to go competitive. My guess is that Lance Armstrong and co., don’t ride cheap bicycles-- and I doubt very much that they’d be better cyclists if they did.

P.S. I think people are taking what Cindy said about borrowing to buy a horse very much out of context. I know I’ve seen people buy cheap horses, saying, e.g., that a green, incorrect inverted animal is “all I can afford,” only to turn around and borrow $20,000 to purchase a new car the next week, and take a vacation in Hawaii the week after that. If learning dressage really were a priority for such a person, s/he would, as Cindy suggests, “buy a cheaper car”-- or maybe skip a few vacations. If a person can “afford” to borrow to pay for the car, why not a better horse? My own experience has been that if one wants a good, sound, healthy, attractive horse to ride, we all end up paying one way or another-- and more often than not, several ways at once, the “free” horses often being the most expensive ones in the long run, while also being the least rideable. Indeed, buying any horse is a gamble, and “one should never pay more for a horse than s/he can afford to lose,” but what a person can “afford” does depend an awful lot on how s/he decides to arrange priorities.

P.P.S. What the beeswax did Honey Locust Farm (which produces “some great stock”) ever do to anyone to merit the label “puppy mill”!!! And yes, Eliza works for Honey Locust so she can ride and compete some of that “great stock” without having to go into debt. If anyone thinks training young WB’s is an easy way to get out of paying $ for a fancy horse, I invite you to try it sometime. First of all, acquiring the necessary qualifications is not exactly inexpensive, and, secondly, I’ve seen a lot of people come close to losing their lives from injuries sustained doing that job. As I’ve said before, if people want to ride nice horses, they are going to pay one way or another.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

[QUOTE=fish;2886082]
Quite so–but I also don’t hear them complaining because the relatively inexpensive equipment, etc., they use for such purposes would not cut the mustard if they did try to go competitive. My guess is that Lance Armstrong and co., don’t ride cheap bicycles-- and I doubt very much that they’d be better cyclists if they did.[/QUOTE]

My guess is that they got to be good cyclists by riding those cheap bicycles…and when they got to be really good, they had bicycle mfgs climbing over each other to get them to ride their expensive bikes so other (lesser) bike riders would have to have one of those expensive bikes, too.

[fish]

[QUOTE=ShowjumpersUSA;2886103]
My guess is that they got to be good cyclists by riding those cheap bicycles…and when they got to be really good, they had bicycle mfgs climbing over each other to get them to ride their expensive bikes so other (lesser) bike riders would have to have one of those expensive bikes, too.[/QUOTE]

I have a friend who’s into cycling-- just for fun, she does 100 mile rides to benefit causes, etc. Her bikes and the bikes of those she rides with are (a) expensive, and (b) custom fitted so they don’t end up crippling their riders instead of getting them fit.

I’ve hear similar things from runners, etc., about shoes.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

[QUOTE=fish;2886127]
I have a friend who’s into cycling-- just for fun, she does 100 mile rides to benefit causes, etc. Her bikes and the bikes of those she rides with are (a) expensive, and (b) custom fitted so they don’t end up crippling their riders instead of getting them fit.

I’ve hear similar things from runners, etc., about shoes.[/QUOTE]

What I meant was when one gets to the professional level (Lance Armstrong), they don’t have to buy their own. We non-professionals look on thinking we need one of those! In the horse business, and other professional sports where equipment is needed, if the pros had to buy their own, we would have fewer pros.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=fish;2886082]
First of all, acquiring the necessary qualifications is not exactly inexpensive,[/QUOTE] One would assume that her mother taught Eliza, and then her mother or her last name opened some doors as well?

[angel]

Well, for TonF and others, I can remember other breeds whose prices were run up to ridiculous amounts. That happened just before the market in those breeds when crashing to the floor. So many horses were being produced, and the hype about them got bigger, and bigger…until there were no more buyers left who had not already bought. For that matter, there is a lot of training being sold out there that is really just quick fixes and not solid starts. Frankly, I am sick to death of hearing someone talk about a “schoolmaster” which is only working second level.