[QUOTE=Angela Freda;2886144]
One would assume that her mother taught Eliza, and then her mother or her last name opened some doors as well?[/QUOTE]
Eliza has been taught by other instructors both here and abroad. I doubt very much that her education has been free.
Canticle, I read the article, and I didn’t get that impression from her at all! On the contrary, she specifically said that you can find a great horse for a bargain if you spend more time looking, or get one that is high quality but you need to spend time and money on training. From what I understood her to say, if you want something that has the quality and the training to go out and win now, you better expect to pay for it.
In my experience, it’s much easier to learn effective riding when they let you know when you get it right, which usually means they have some training. I figure it’s best if somebody knows what they’re doing, whether the rider or the horse, but sometimes you do the best you can with the opportunities you have. I try to take what I learn from the 2nd Level horse I ride in lessons to the horses who are Intro or Training Level (or have non-dressage jobs). I really appreciate the chance to practice for free in between lessons, and love spending time with any horse - I don’t feel any of it is wasted. If I were only riding greener horses, it would be harder for me to get the initial “that’s how it’s supposed to feel,” though. I’m not in a stage of my riding where it would be necessary, or even useful, to spend so much money to get a horse with training through GP.
That’s called good sportsmanship, and my parents taught me that when I was a child. Really, I’m glad that you too had that revelation, but you are wrong to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is somehow lacking that basic life lesson.
People, there is no need to get defensive because you think others are practicing some bizarre form of “reverse snobbery.” I don’t think that’s the case for the majority of posters here. I’ve read most (not all) of this thread, and I really haven’t seen anyone taking their Walkaloosa to the Olympics – they are simply saying that their Walkaloosa suits them and their goals. I don’t see how that’s offensive to those who have serious competitive goals. Why the outrage? There’s nothing wrong with having an expensive horse, just like there’s nothing wrong with having a cheap one. People have different goals.
I don’t get the whole “reverse snobbery” thing. Granted, snobbery isn’t fun regardless of who’s dishing it out, but I’m just not seeing it in this case. To me it reads like a supermodel thinking everyone hates her because she’s beautiful, when in reality, everyone hates her because she’s rude and condescending.
After my original comment. I’ve been busy, but come back to find this thread out of hand.
Cindy’s opinion has its merit’s but I’m with those who feel that indebtedness with the collateral being a critter bent on self destruction makes no sense.
However, the attacks on her personal life, her judging ethics etc. are way out of hand. As are attacks on Eliza.
Call me ErinII!!! 
[QUOTE=Sithly;2886321]
That’s called good sportsmanship, and my parents taught me that when I was a child. Really, I’m glad that you too had that revelation, but you are wrong to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is somehow lacking that basic life lesson.
People, there is no need to get defensive because you think others are practicing some bizarre form of “reverse snobbery.” I don’t think that’s the case for the majority of posters here. I’ve read most (not all) of this thread, and I really haven’t seen anyone taking their Walkaloosa to the Olympics – they are simply saying that their Walkaloosa suits them and their goals. I don’t see how that’s offensive to those who have serious competitive goals. Why the outrage? There’s nothing wrong with having an expensive horse, just like there’s nothing wrong with having a cheap one. People have different goals.
I don’t get the whole “reverse snobbery” thing. Granted, snobbery isn’t fun regardless of who’s dishing it out, but I’m just not seeing it in this case. To me it reads like a supermodel thinking everyone hates her because she’s beautiful, when in reality, everyone hates her because she’s rude and condescending.[/QUOTE]
Very, very well said, Sithly!
Interesting topic - which issue DT are you referring to? I’ll keep an eye out for it when it arrives on our shores, in about 3 months time 
As for finances, I think it is up to the individual what they choose to do with their money… I work full time (in law, so paid quite nicely) and just signed the paperwork for a loan to buy a horse truck - I’ll be paying that off for the next couple of years but the independence that comes with the truck is worth it. My horse is worth more than my car but I bred my mare, and my mum and I put the work in (I would hate to think how much we have spent on lessons - but don’t begrudge that at all). I’m now about to put one of my mares in foal with a view it being my next competition horse - have the funds to buy something made is not an option for me at present.
[QUOTE=Velvet;2885801]
If you are serious and you get those rides and more education, then you can buy those horses for $3,000, invest your time and energy into them (as well as more on additional lessons) and make them worth $30,000. Then sell them and buy a better horse. Keep moving up the ladder. If something tragic happens to a horse, start over. It all adds to your education–and I thought THAT was the point of dressage. That you are always learning and always working on things with not only one horse for the rest of your life, but with many horses spread out over time.[/QUOTE]
Some people enjoy working with as many horses as possible. Once they have trained a horse to its limit they can find it a good home and then get another horse so they can try again, perhaps getting a little higher the next time around. In the process they can become better riders. Absolutely nothing wrong with this!!!
But others prefer to keep horses for life! Instead of selling a horse that is “outgrown” they view ownership as a lifelong commitment, with potential for learning throughout the horse’s life. These people will not consider selling and moving to a better horse, because there is no better horse. I fall into this group, and I never stop learning from my horses. I never feel that I am too good for them. And I never for a moment feel that I am wasting my time with them!
So what is the point of dressage? Does it have to be one or the other? Or is it possible that both groups can be on the correct path?
I started reading all the replies and decided that so many opinions for so many personal situations.
That’s just it: personal choice for different folks.
I know where she is coming from, and while I don’t think everyone should take out a loan (too much credit abuse in our culture), those who are serious about their competition goals should consider on the outset getting the best horse they can.
I am always talking to students who bring their wonderful family horses, alternative breeds, to lessons that in competition, warmbloods are bred for the job. Just like I will never be a gymnast (too tall and clumsy), my student’s wonderful quarterhorse will never be uphill, and it becomes more important to be COMPETITIVE. That does not mean she has to give up showing. It means this is a fork in the road for a choice.
I will add that I had a student take a horse that was really not mentally or physically suited for her competition FEI goals. He did not have pure gaits or a relaxed demeanor. She worked and worked at it, and the horse was really unhappy and stressed. He had ulcers and meltdowns as she went from trainer to trainer looking for the answer she wanted. She is continually frustrated by her scores, her tests, the judges, the sport, fellow competitors. WHY??? Is that kind to the horse?
I think this is what Cindy’s article is mostly about. I don’t think she meant to say that if you take your less-than-ideal horse, knowing that it might not go “all the way” to your goals, you are wrong. Just know that if you set your sights high, you are better starting with the best possible horse you “CAN AFFORD” (she does not suggest going into debt here).
It ultimately costs more to train a horse that struggles through training than one who progresses easily. You can choose at what point you spend more. Sometimes starting out with a larger investment pays off over time.
IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT.
I have to be a realist: There is always someone who can buy a fancier or more trained horse, train more intensely than I can. I don’t expect that because I work hard at my training or make sacrifices that I will change that. I have to find satisfaction with my own choices.
[QUOTE=Donella;2885658]
First of all…to all of you who haven’t noticed…dressage is a SPORT. It is an Olympic discipline. When something is a sport…there is competition. Competition means to compete.[/QUOTE]
You know, maybe 10-15 years ago I would have agreed with you, that this is all there is to dressage. But now I realize that dressage is so much more than that! 
[QUOTE=merrygoround;2886382]
After my original comment. I’ve been busy, but come back to find this thread out of hand.
Cindy’s opinion has its merit’s but I’m with those who feel that indebtedness with the collateral being a critter bent on self destruction makes no sense.
However, the attacks on her personal life, her judging ethics etc. are way out of hand. As are attacks on Eliza.
Call me ErinII!!! :)[/QUOTE]
Call me III?? I agree that the personal attacks are uncalled for, not to mention being against the rules of this board.
It has also occurred to me that loans are a bit like horses in being something a person shouldn’t purchase unless s/he can afford them, almost regardless of the collateral used. E.g. a lot of people have gotten into serious trouble borrowing to buy houses lately, while I know a few pinhookers who’ve borrowed to buy horses and done quite well. Personally, the most debt I’ve ever been in was caused by simultaneous illnesses of my daughter and one of my horses. I revolved 6 0% credit cards during the 3 years it took me to pay it off, so there was very little in the way of financing costs (a few $50 transfer fees and a little interest on my home equity loan between credit cards). Personally, I find being in debt nerve wracking because of the risks involved, but there are very few people or businesses who don’t find it necessary in order to continue forward at some point in their lives.
Me four. I was attacked and accused of wanting to sell my horses because I disagreed with the article and merely posted my opinion earlier in this topic. It is just as wrong to attack Cindy and accuse her of the same thing for voicing her opinion whether you agree with her or not. Just because someone breeds horses that does not mean that their every motive behind every comment or post means that they are trying to push for sales. :no:
Anyway, don’t expect the mods to do anything about it. I discussed the matter with them and was told as long as it was in the context of the conversation and done respectfully they do not care. However, one would hope someone would not be so low as to stoop to personal attacks regardless but we know someone always will be low enough.
Originally Posted by Angela Freda
“One would assume that her mother taught Eliza, and then her mother or her last name opened some doors as well?”
[QUOTE=fish;2886239]
Eliza has been taught by other instructors both here and abroad. I doubt very much that her education has been free.[/QUOTE]
Did I say it was free? Oh sorry,… I just meant to point out that some riders who come from Dressage families DO have an easier time of it than Ammies schlepping through life amidst the non-horsey.
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;2886944]
Originally Posted by Angela Freda
“One would assume that her mother taught Eliza, and then her mother or her last name opened some doors as well?”
Did I say it was free? Oh sorry,… I just meant to point out that some riders who come from Dressage families DO have an easier time of it than Ammies schlepping through life amidst the non-horsey.[/QUOTE]
My guess is that in some ways they have it easier and in some ways harder. I’m sure we all have our crosses to bear, and IMO none of us should be making assumptions about the details of other peoples’ lives.
[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson;2885490]
The bottom line is that learning dressage is usually a series of horses. The usable life of any horse is about 10 years, if we’re very lucky. Most of us learning dressage seriously will train 30 or more years. Few riders are allowed the luxury of their first horse being their last horse. Many of us make concessions in our education to be able to keep the horse we love. There is nothing wrong with that either.
It is the education of the rider and the welfare of the horse that are paramount. Making the right match is more critical than the price tag. But will you go in debt? You’ve all heard the old joke: how do you make a small fortune in horses? Start with a large one![/QUOTE]
Amen, amen, amen, Sistarh!
Lay it on the line, because this is the truth. Frankly people who do not want to look at the truth can come with a million reasons NOT to face it head on. We will only do what profits us. And sometimes parting with more cash is the answer. Truth!! <arm raised in fist>
I have had my horse since he was 6 and came off the track and intend to keep him until he dies. SO my riding/learning is on hiatus until my next horse comes along, after this one dies.
If all horses have 10 useable years, what do we do with them after those 10 years are up? Send him to Europe on a platter?
First off, thanks SLC, you have humbled me.
Secondly, you are most talented at getting to the crux of the matter and articulating it to relate to real life scenarios. If you can get even ONE person to self examine why they keep inventing persistent complaints about a sport they allege to LOVE, then your efforts will have been worth it.
Along the lines of many posters (I daren’t say competitive riders, here) … here, DO NOT LOSE PERSPECTIVE. Cindy’s write up was under the header of “VIEWPOINT!” Not “recommended approaches to riding” folks! NO HER VIEWPOINT. HER OPINION.[/I] ] What SHE would personally have done differently if she had to do it all over again.
She is sharing her vast experiences in LIFE as a long term and well respected member of the dressage community. She also stated her REASON for this recommendation. She stated that you get older, your body gets older, and you can’t turn back TIME … but you can get more MONEY to move up faster with a better horse while your own body is still younger.
It appears that a lot of people here apparently MISSED that point about an aging body.
And, as a coming 43 y.o (in 3 weeks), I can CERTAINLY relate to her comments about aging and not being able to tap into the young body again (if you can’t afford your dream horse until later in your riding career). … Because if you wait until later, then you end up with this uber talented horse … and yet your body isn’t quite responding like you’d want it to. And, you might HOLD THE HORSE BACK ( this is a daily concern of MINE)…
… or what if … you finally turn 45 and can afford your dream horse and then develop a serious disease or illness - those kinds of diseases to which all humans are more prone due to age? … I personally KNOW people who have done this – finally been able to afford their dream horse, then find out months after getting it that they have cancer … heart issues … degenerating spine, etc.
Even a very healthy 40-something DAILY feels the pain of past falls and “over done its” … less flexible and less supple muscles … less energy than a 20 or 30 something …
I felt that THIS was more Cindy’s point.
And, FWIW – I think that the SNOBBERY accusation was utterly invented. I have watched Cindy teach riders on everything from a tiny aged Arab mare to a fancy WB. Both pairs received EQUAL time, love and attention from Cindy… She was only making the point in her article that if you WANT to go to the top, there are certain logical steps to take to get there. Don’t wait until you are 40+ then say, "Oh, I wish I had … "
Along that line, BTW, I think most top riders have made comments similar to Cindy’s (that a better quality horse will take you further and faster). However, if they see a rider that is perfectly content to stay within the limitations of their chosen mount, they are ALL TOO HAPPY to work with that pair.
Finally, one other reason to purchase a better quality horse … THE WORK COMES SO NATURALLY TO THEM THAT THEY ADVANCE FASTER AND IT IS EASIER ON THEIR BODIES … My Cleveland-based vet made this comment when I was there in early December. He was training in a new hire and he pointed to me and said: “See these dressage horses. This sport is one of the hardest on them of all because they are pushing the horse the hardest when his collagen and joint cartilage is starting to break down.”
A better quality horse will be further along BEFORE it’s body begins to degrade. It will therefore be more comfortable, physically, in its work than one not suited to what it is being asked to do.
Magnum
Sydnor (and others) seem to equate purchasing a better quality horse with purchasing an expensive WB? What a huge leap in logic that is! :lol:
I also question whether “advancement” is as important as we think it is. Is it really an end in itself? Obviously it works for Sydnor who is a professional trainer and bases her career around it. But does this have to be everyone’s end goal? I know it wouldn’t work for me. Sure I could keep trading up horses and “advance” faster and faster. But then what? What’s the point? I’m not dissing this path, just saying that it would be a waste of time FOR ME.
Continual “advancement” is just one reason some may practice dressage. I can see how under that scenario the horse is the tool, and you would need the “perfect” tool for the job. But let’s not have tunnel vision and assume that this is the only way.
Thanks to Kathy Johnson for the most well reasoned and sensible posts on this thread.
I think that we can all agree that if the article had been limited to aspiring professionals or other serious competitors, it would not have been so inflammatory. To get to the top ranks in equestrian sports takes a lot of wealth, whether that be your own money or clients’ money. That’s kind of a no brainer, isn’t it?
But aside from that, it is just silly to say that a more expensive horse necessarily translates into a better rider. Actually, the real truth is that the MORE horses that you ride makes you a better rider. That’s one very important reason that most professionals are better than most amateurs. They ride more horses every day and have a basis for comparison of what they are doing right or wrong, or whether one horse is having a particular problem when compared to others. You just can’t feel that when riding one horse. When you ride one horse, you learn to ride that horse, and to a certain extent, that horse trains you.
The “reverse snobbery” thing is interesting. I do frequently see some riders who have invested in well trained horses not learn to really “ride”— meaning that they can learn to give the aids and recognize a correct response, but they never learn to train the horse themselves, or how to deal with any real resistance from the horse. Often they do not learn to deal with any misbehavior on the part of the horse, and are timid riders as a result. There can be a jealousy on the part of those people who have never learned to ride a difficult horse–particularly if the horse that they spent so much money on begins to develop misbehaviors.
The riders who don’t have the money to buy a “good horse,” frequently end up riding more horses, and they are better riders because they ride more horses, not because of the value of the horses. So maybe the riders who have not ridden the expensive horses DO feel a bit superior, if they are better horsemen. The person with the better horse is jealous of the other person’s riding ability, and the other person is definitely jealous of the expensive horse!
Both views are shortsighted when it comes to competition. It takes both expensive horses AND riding ability, AND riding many horses AND dedication AND hard work AND self-discipline, AND luck to be a successful competitor. If you don’t have all the rest, then buying one expensive horse is just a waste of time (and money.) Caveat emptor.
“now can afford good horse and health problems…”
(points to self) ding ding ding!
People get old. “Old” in a competitive sport is 35, for most sports. For dressage, it’s older, of course, but to do well at the higher levels, to compete successfully, no, you never get away, totally, from the truth of it - that this is a sport - a physical sport. Mostly competitions conducted in the summer, and one simply is kidding oneself if one thinks one can do really well being over weight, out of shape, ill, etc. HOW MANY times have I been at a show where riders got sunstroke - surprisingly often, actually.
The older one gets, the more one runs risks that something…SOMETHING is going to crop up and make it very, very hard to compete. That is just one more burden that makes it even harder.
It’s just not possible for some people to understand, Magnum. You get someone that’s SO defensive about their choices/what’s happened to them, you can’t talk reason to them.
But what people don’t have, I think, is a fundamental respect for dressage. Yes, actually, I think that’s the problem. I think most people make a very superficial lip service to having respect for the sport, they THINK they respect it, but that’s all.
Unfortunately, I see it happen very often. People WANT to do really well, as much as they try to hide it or shout, 'It’s about the journey! I love my horsey!"
They get very resentful and angry as time goes on, and they wonder WHY they don’t do as well as they want. They very often have unrealistic expectations, don’t get enough lessons…think they can learn without an instructor…go from instructor to instructor without picking up a real system, just a bag of tricks that they don’t really know how to use, their training lacks continuity and focus and progress…who’s at fault? Why the judges, the other riders who can afford better horses - you name it…
No, actually, it’s not ‘just good sportsmanship’ that I described.
It’s about understanding the sport - realizing what it takes - knowing that others take a different course - that they NEED to take a different course - accepting one’s own choices - AND other people’s choices. I frankly can’t imagine anyone arguing with What Sydnor said. Maybe quibble about what words are used, or whatever, or if you absolutely MUST, go ahead and try to make it ia little more politically correct if you absolutely MUST (barf). We were talking about this thread last night and my SO said, ‘Son of a gun, I guess they CAN argue with simple reality!’
And by and large, it’s about forgetting the myths you learn here. This bulletin board is the biggest source of online information on dressage that I know of - but it’s also a huge source of MIS information, and really lousy, unproductive attitudes.
WOW
I did read the article, but not this WHOLE thread. I just don’t have the time today! :lol:
My “take” on Cindy’s article was not to “just” go into debt but rather to do your best to obtain an “appropriate” horse. If a person goes into debt to buy a horse, that is THEIR business. Have I done it? Yes. Could I “afford” it? Nope :lol: But I made it work and have never regretted it.
We work with many people who do want to be competitive but who are trying to do it on horses who are not “made” to do dressage. Yes, Dressage is good for all horses, BUT not all horses are good at Dressage. Funny how everybody wants to “do” Dressage on any kind of horse. When is the last time you heard a Working Cow Horse trainer suggest that your WB would be perfectly suitable for “his” sport? Or like another poster said, run your Clyde in the Kentucky Derby??
Do I think you shouldn’t do Dressage on “whatever horse you have”? No. I do think that starting Dressage on whatever horse you have is a great idea. Learn the basics, develop a better seat, decide if Dressage is for you. BUT, if you want to progress up the levels AND be competitive, you will PROBABLY need a more appropriate horse. For example, trying to force a “bulldog” QH to “sit” and do upper level collection is not only hard to do, but it isn’t very nice to the horse. In fact IMO it borders on cruelty.
I’ve zipped up my flame suit now, but really I think Cindy’s VIEWPOINT article was realistic.
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