Go into debt for a horse???

[GreekDressageQueen]

Well, I finally received the issue with this “controversial” article in it. Although I agree that one should buy the best horse they possibly can, I do disagree with her statement that one should drive a cheaper car and spend more money on the horse. I guess if you are a pro and riding is part of your livelihood then that makes sense, but for most amateurs - that’s a bit much IMO.

Personally, I think most people end up with a sub-standard horse compared to their skill/potential level because they get tired of looking for “just the right one” and settle for something that will work now as opposed to looking down the road to your needs and goals. I think if she stressed that aspect of planning long-term ownership a bit more as opposed to comparing $ - then I think it would make more sense appeal to a larger crowd.

I do own a horse that is worth more than my car, but I came by him cheap - I bred him myself out of my imported mare. I think it is harder to buy babies and bring them along, but ultimately it is cheaper and more rewarding in the long run. Too bad she didn’t bother mentioning this as an option.

[CatOnLap]

and G-DQ, I agree with Cindy’s statement. And I am not wealthy, I do not compete. If one knows how to train, bringing a baby along may be cheaper. But if one is learning the art of dressage, or learning how to train, starting with a schooled horse is a good idea. If one hopes to learn to ride the big gaits, one must ride a horse with them. They are not generally cheap. Mine was priced at more than the expensive german sports car I had previously lusted over. And is still worth more than any other vehicle I have owned.

My goals were to be as good as I could be, not necessarily in competition. For that, I went into deep debt for training and the horse and the facility. But I am not so foollish as to blindly take someone’s advice if it does not suit me. Collateral did not matter and my payments would have been easily made even if the horse died the moment I got him. It was a risk.

For me, dressage is not a “sport” so much as an art. I do not paint a painting to enter it in a juried art show. The pleasure for me is in the creation of the art and in the creation of a horse who is pleased with himself when he dances with me.

I have not regretted the debt, now long paid off. One cannot live without taking risks. My risks suited me.

[Wingman]

All my horses were under the $1,500.00 mark ( including my stallion which I bred) and even so far as $250.00 for my half arab GP horse so it can be done, just not as easy as it was before.

[Arcadien]

One of the best pieces of advice I ever heard -

Only go into debt for your 1st car, education, home & unavoidable medical expenses. And even then, only go into “reasonable” debt (i.e., 1st car shouldn’t be the Benz, buy a house you can afford, etc.), and pay it off as soon as you can.

For everything else, plan & save for it. Most people used to live this way automatically, before credit became so easily & readily available. Methinks our collective happiness suffers a bit more each degree deeper in debt we go!

I didn’t follow this strategy initially & suffered many years of anguish digging out from debt, ending up paying twice for things I couldn’t even remember having.

Now, I grin every day knowing I own my car, my trailer, my horses & in 5 years will even own my house!

Yes there are things I want, new horses included, but I have an account set up for each wish list and a spreadsheet showing just when I’ll be able to go shopping. I’ve learned the pleasure of waiting until I can afford things. Sometimes it is hard to wait but it is SO much more fun to look at my account growing than to wince over a high bill or argue with a spouse over money.

If you follow this strategy, it will add immeasurable peace, contentment & self respect to your life. It can even save marriages, or make it possible to live single & still achieve your dreams alone.

Follow this strategy and soon you feel you can conquer the world! For no one owns a piece of you, and your dreams depend on no one’s generosity but your own!

Happy holidays, all,

Arcadien

[CatOnLap]

Yes I agree, only go in debt for what you can reasonably afford and for good reasons like education…even dressage education if that is your passion.

[Atigirl]

Maybe the article should have put in there something about going into debt to buy a horse you can actually ride! Just because you buy a GP horse doesn’t make you a GP rider. I have seen too many times at my barn people getting frustrated at the lower levels and thinking if they just buy the “wow” horse all their problems will be solved. Very sad to be making payments on something that the trainer is still riding.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=slc2;2888550]
Unfortunately, I see it happen very often. People WANT to do really well, as much as they try to hide it or shout, 'It’s about the journey! I love my horsey!"

They get very resentful and angry as time goes on, and they wonder WHY they don’t do as well as they want. They very often have unrealistic expectations, don’t get enough lessons…think they can learn without an instructor…go from instructor to instructor without picking up a real system, just a bag of tricks that they don’t really know how to use, their training lacks continuity and focus and progress…who’s at fault? Why the judges, the other riders who can afford better horses - you name it…[/QUOTE]
slc2 you keep telling us how unhappy and resentful we are, but meanwhile we are the ones who are so very happy with ourselves and with our horses! One has to wonder why you continue to project your unhappiness onto others? Please go give your horse a hug. I think it would be good for both of you.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;2888567]
We work with many people who do want to be competitive but who are trying to do it on horses who are not “made” to do dressage. Yes, Dressage is good for all horses, BUT not all horses are good at Dressage. Funny how everybody wants to “do” Dressage on any kind of horse. When is the last time you heard a Working Cow Horse trainer suggest that your WB would be perfectly suitable for “his” sport? Or like another poster said, run your Clyde in the Kentucky Derby??

Do I think you shouldn’t do Dressage on “whatever horse you have”? No. I do think that starting Dressage on whatever horse you have is a great idea. Learn the basics, develop a better seat, decide if Dressage is for you. BUT, if you want to progress up the levels AND be competitive, you will PROBABLY need a more appropriate horse. For example, trying to force a “bulldog” QH to “sit” and do upper level collection is not only hard to do, but it isn’t very nice to the horse. In fact IMO it borders on cruelty.

I’ve zipped up my flame suit now, but really I think Cindy’s VIEWPOINT article was realistic.[/QUOTE]
The only thing WBs are more suited for is the competitive Dressage, and Ms. Sydnor failed to state that her opinion piece was directed only to competitive riders with Olympic aspirations. Thus we are left to assume that her comments were intended for ALL dressage riders, in which case her advice was grossly misinformed.

[Pony_Fixer]

[QUOTE=Arcadien;2888668]
Only go into debt for your 1st car, education, home & unavoidable medical expenses. And even then, only go into “reasonable” debt.

Arcadien[/QUOTE]

Well, the only problem with that statement is that “reasonable debt” is not always feasible for your education. And sometimes the end product career will not necessarily balance this out. My case in point was the almost $100K debt for college, grad school, and vet school. My parents did not help me, and about 25% of my education was scholarship. Does a vet make enough to pay all that off in a reasonable time frame? Nope, try $700/month for 30 years. Luckily I sold some property in NoVA before the real estate slow down and paid it all off, but most people in my position are not that lucky.

This is not the same as buying a horse on credit, for sure, but I did that too :lol: (also paid off now as well, thankyouverymuch!)

[Wingman]

@slc2;2888550

They get very resentful and angry as time goes on, and they wonder WHY they don’t do as well as they want. They very often have unrealistic expectations, don’t get enough lessons…think they can learn without an instructor…go from instructor to instructor without picking up a real system, just a bag of tricks that they don’t really know how to use, their training lacks continuity and focus and progress…who’s at fault? Why the judges, the other riders who can afford better horses - you name it…

I don’t know. Just because you didn’t make it doesn’t mean others may not be stronger with better ability to do well with a less expensive horse. I only had 3 lessons during the time I rode my GP horse and I started out with an unbroke 2 year old and went all the way.

I was VERY HAPPY even when the judges marked him down because of his breeding, that is the judges problem not mine.

[Helen_of_NC]

I’ve read the DT column a couple times now, and I’ve waded through all these pages of posts (although it’s taken a couple of days, in spurts). Like a lot of things printed in Dressage Today–and most other publications I read, for that matter, horse-related or not–I tend to focus on those things that are relevant to me. The rest of it? Well, I’ll still read with some interest, while realizing that I’m probably not the intended demographic. That latter response was what I experienced from Ms. Sydnor’s piece. I think I’m beyond worrying about wasting my time, as I’m pushing 50 (dear God that looks quite stark in print), and I’m entering my second re-riding phase.

I was blessed as a child to be able to learn from Jane Marshall Dillon at Junior Equitation School in Virginia, who instilled in each and every one of her riders to put the horse first, always. Most everyone in her lesson program showed on school horses, and we had an absolute blast rooting for one another at shows both at the farm, and out and about. When my parents divorced, the lessons at JES ended, but I managed to save babysitting money, work at another farm, and found a young App/TB that no one else wanted–he was deemed “mean and ornery” by the farmer who owned him–for $500 on a cold November night. He was an absolute sweetheart, and we bonded immediately. He was the perfect partner for me at the time, and I can’t tell you how many times I poured out my heart to him, and buried my tear-stained face in his neck. It broke my heart to have to sell him when I left for college, but there was no choice in the matter; there wasn’t money for both.

I didn’t get back to riding again until my son, at age nine (this was back in '90), came home from summer camp begging for riding lessons. Something about the smell of the barn we visited brought everything back to me. I started taking lessons, too.

We found Jewel a year later; she was the perfect first horse for my son, then she became my hand-me-down horse, and we did very well on the local hunter-jumper circuit. I still have her at 21. And I have her daughter, Stella, as well, whom I’ve raised from a baby–and she’s very much like her mother in so many ways–the most essential of which is her temperament.

I honestly love to watch good riders on great horses–no matter their discipline. It absolutely gives me goosebumps to watch my dressage trainer ride her FEI horse… but I’m equally thrilled to see my other trainer, a wonderful horseman, ride his foundation-bred QH through his all-round ranch horse paces. He’s also the one I’ve entrusted Stella to in helping her rehab from a pasture-related stifle injury, as she needs to work predominantly in straight lines, and the trails are perfect for that. Since I travel so much for work, he gives me the peace of mind of working her consistently for me when I can’t. He starts a number of young horses for quite a few dressage trainers locally, including my own; he’s recognized as a valuable asset in the local horse community.

I can honestly say I’ve never regretted any moment spent with any of the three horses that have graced my life; I only regret that I don’t have more time to do so with my current two. We’re hoping to return to dressage training soon, but I honestly don’t have any lofty goals other than to improve my own riding skills, and strengthen and work Stella in a consistent, disciplined manner–hence the interest in pursuing dressage.

Again, though, do I fit the “demographic” of the average dressage rider, or DT reader, or COTH dressage forum poster? Perhaps not, but it doesn’t matter to me one hoot. I’ll continue to read DT, and the enormously long, long list of books my dressage trainer’s recommended as “essential reading,” and I’ll probably continue to read more than post on this forum, as I’ve learned so much from doing so, as a complement to actual saddle time. Am I envious, or jealous of those with the more expensive horses? Heck no, I’m happy for them, as I am for anyone blessed to have these incredible creatures in their lives. And I’ll take mine, thanks… and cherish every single moment I have with them, both on and off their backs.

[maresnest]

[QUOTE=Helen of NC;2889123]
I’ve read the DT column a couple times now, and I’ve waded through all these pages of posts (although it’s taken a couple of days, in spurts). Like a lot of things printed in Dressage Today–and most other publications I read, for that matter, horse-related or not–I tend to focus on those things that are relevant to me. The rest of it? Well, I’ll still read with some interest, while realizing that I’m probably not the intended demographic. That latter response was what I experienced from Ms. Sydnor’s piece. I think I’m beyond worrying about wasting my time, as I’m pushing 50 (dear God that looks quite stark in print), and I’m entering my second re-riding phase.

I was blessed as a child to be able to learn from Jane Marshall Dillon at Junior Equitation School in Virginia, who instilled in each and every one of her riders to put the horse first, always. Most everyone in her lesson program showed on school horses, and we had an absolute blast rooting for one another at shows both at the farm, and out and about. When my parents divorced, the lessons at JES ended, but I managed to save babysitting money, work at another farm, and found a young App/TB that no one else wanted–he was deemed “mean and ornery” by the farmer who owned him–for $500 on a cold November night. He was an absolute sweetheart, and we bonded immediately. He was the perfect partner for me at the time, and I can’t tell you how many times I poured out my heart to him, and buried my tear-stained face in his neck. It broke my heart to have to sell him when I left for college, but there was no choice in the matter; there wasn’t money for both.

I didn’t get back to riding again until my son, at age nine (this was back in '90), came home from summer camp begging for riding lessons. Something about the smell of the barn we visited brought everything back to me. I started taking lessons, too.

We found Jewel a year later; she was the perfect first horse for my son, then she became my hand-me-down horse, and we did very well on the local hunter-jumper circuit. I still have her at 21. And I have her daughter, Stella, as well, whom I’ve raised from a baby–and she’s very much like her mother in so many ways–the most essential of which is her temperament.

I honestly love to watch good riders on great horses–no matter their discipline. It absolutely gives me goosebumps to watch my dressage trainer ride her FEI horse… but I’m equally thrilled to see my other trainer, a wonderful horseman, ride his foundation-bred QH through his all-round ranch horse paces. He’s also the one I’ve entrusted Stella to in helping her rehab from a pasture-related stifle injury, as she needs to work predominantly in straight lines, and the trails are perfect for that. Since I travel so much for work, he gives me the peace of mind of working her consistently for me when I can’t. He starts a number of young horses for quite a few dressage trainers locally, including my own; he’s recognized as a valuable asset in the local horse community.

I can honestly say I’ve never regretted any moment spent with any of the three horses that have graced my life; I only regret that I don’t have more time to do so with my current two. We’re hoping to return to dressage training soon, but I honestly don’t have any lofty goals other than to improve my own riding skills, and strengthen and work Stella in a consistent, disciplined manner–hence the interest in pursuing dressage.

Again, though, do I fit the “demographic” of the average dressage rider, or DT reader, or COTH dressage forum poster? Perhaps not, but it doesn’t matter to me one hoot. I’ll continue to read DT, and the enormously long, long list of books my dressage trainer’s recommended as “essential reading,” and I’ll probably continue to read more than post on this forum, as I’ve learned so much from doing so, as a complement to actual saddle time. Am I envious, or jealous of those with the more expensive horses? Heck no, I’m happy for them, as I am for anyone blessed to have these incredible creatures in their lives. And I’ll take mine, thanks… and cherish every single moment I have with them, both on and off their backs.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for expressing this so eloquently, Helen!

[Rusty_Stirrup]

For a really good laugh read the article to your husband.

[slc2]

Na…I don’t think anyone can really be happy with what they’ve done, or accept that others need to take a different path, and be supportive of them, if an article like this incites them to such a frenzy.

[maresnest]

[QUOTE=Rusty Stirrup;2889658]
For a really good laugh read the article to your husband.[/QUOTE]

LOL!

[Chief2]

I am an infrequent reader here, but totally understand both sides of the equation. The hobbyist horse owner in me would be horrified at the prices of some of these horses, but the highly-trained professional musician in me has been there and done that.

To briefly equate this to my world, there are plenty of musical instruments out there, but if you want entrance into the top levels in the playing world, you’d better ante up for the best in terms of materials, workmanship and quality or you won’t be playing in those worlds. How do you think we get those Steinways, Bosendorfers, Powell flutes or the rare Strads and Guarnarius stringed instruments??? Unless someone who loves us is willing to pass one our way, we take out personal loans at high rates of interest to obtain the best. And then, considering how little musicians make on a day to day basis, we take a looong time to pay it all back. I own two of the above. They cost an ever lovin’ fortune! Once you have played the best, well, you may have to play something second rate if something goes wrong with your own instrument, and it might get the job done, but not with the absolute finesse that the best will deliver for a fraction of the effort. And you never, ever forget the feelings and the sounds generated by the truly top-notch instruments. It stays in you forever, whether you are on or off the instrument. Which then spoils the second-rate instruments for you forever.

It is the same with the top-level horses. People go into debt for all sorts of things, and if this is their choice, for whatever reason, so be it.

[Sithly]

“Na…I don’t think anyone can really be happy with what they’ve done, or accept that others need to take a different path, and be supportive of them, if an article like this incites them to such a frenzy,” she says after many pages of passionate frothing, complete with liberal use of CAPS and italics.

Y’know, sometimes she is spot on.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=slc2;2889756]
Na…I don’t think anyone can really be happy with what they’ve done, or accept that others need to take a different path, and be supportive of them, if an article like this incites them to such a frenzy.[/QUOTE]
Ahh yes, but it goes both ways, doesn’t it? :lol: Apparently the other side isn’t very happy or secure. Otherwise we wouldn’t see them freaking out whenever an “unsuitable” horse is doing dressage!

I also have to wonder how secure Ms. Sydnor feels as horse-trainer/riding instructor. I’ve found the best trainers KNOW their place and do NOT play horse dealer!

[Helen_of_NC]

[QUOTE=slc2;2889756]
Na…I don’t think anyone can really be happy with what they’ve done, or accept that others need to take a different path, and be supportive of them, if an article like this incites them to such a frenzy.[/QUOTE]

The written word is meant to incite. Whether one agrees with a particular piece of writing is less important than if it meets the test of writing well: to stimulate introspection and thoughtful discussion. Ms. Sydnor has more than succeeded in my book; and for that, she certainly has my respect.

Perhaps I’m just in the Christmas spirit, or the heady vapours of roasting turkey have overwhelmed me, but I feel the words shared within this lengthy thread have been far more thoughtful than frenzied.

And as far as reading the article to husbands? All I can say on that subject is thank God for separate checking accounts.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=canticle;2888771]
The only thing WBs are more suited for is the competitive Dressage, and Ms. Sydnor failed to state that her opinion piece was directed only to competitive riders with Olympic aspirations. Thus we are left to assume that her comments were intended for ALL dressage riders, in which case her advice was grossly misinformed.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I’ll respectfully disagree with you. If you want to “learn” Dressage, even if you never plan to compete, you need to be mounted on a horse (to “almost” quote Ms. Sydnor) with the conformation to move the way the books say. And WBs tend to have this capability. It is form to function. It is purpose bred. And yes, there are horses out there who aren’t Warmbloods who do well, but they are rare.

Ms. Sydnor’s article is clearly geared toward the competitive rider, as I understand it. She does point out that even if competition isn’t your thing, riding a better horse makes you a better rider. Sorry, but this is the truth. I grew up riding many kinds of horses. And I was lucky to have some very good ones, “for what they were”. I was a good enough rider to be able to “posture” a horse and get decent scores. Then I sat on my first Warmblood. It really wasn’t even a very good one, but oh, the difference. I’ll never forget that feeling. So I sucked it up, realized that the horses I was breeding were nice horses, but not “appropriate” for what I wanted to do. I did exactly what Ms. Sydnor recomends. I found an appropriate horse, borrowed the money and bought him.

I am very surprised at the rancor this “viewpoint” has stirred up. If you want to do cutting, get a stock horse. If you want to do endurance, get an Arab. If you want to win the K Derby, get a TB. If you want to do 5 gaited, get a TWH and so on and so forth. Why would Dressage be any different???

My disclaimer: I’m not saying that all WBs are WONDERFUL and that all non-WBs are “not appropriate”. I’m talking generally, here. One should always buy the best horse that is within their financial and physical capabilities. But it is hardly a crime to borrow money to buy a horse :lol: