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Go into debt for a horse???

Dressage
#301

[QUOTE=canticle;2889828]
Ahh yes, but it goes both ways, doesn’t it? :lol: Apparently the other side isn’t very happy or secure. Otherwise we wouldn’t see them freaking out whenever an “unsuitable” horse is doing dressage! :smiley:

I also have to wonder how secure Ms. Sydnor feels as horse-trainer/riding instructor. I’ve found the best trainers KNOW their place and do NOT play horse dealer![/QUOTE]

Ahh, quite the contrary. I doubt anyone is trying to scare people away from Dressage. Serious Dressage people love the sport and try their darndest to bring people in. A “good” trainer doesn’t lie to their students or “tell them what they want to hear” while taking their money. A good trainer is honest with their students and if the horse can’t do the job the trainer tells the student that.

#302

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;2889833]
Sorry, but I’ll respectfully disagree with you. If you want to “learn” Dressage, even if you never plan to compete, you need to be mounted on a horse (to “almost” quote Ms. Sydnor) with the conformation to move the way the books say. And WBs tend to have this capability. It is form to function. It is purpose bred. And yes, there are horses out there who aren’t Warmbloods who do well, but they are rare.

Ms. Sydnor’s article is clearly geared toward the competitive rider, as I understand it. She does point out that even if competition isn’t your thing, riding a better horse makes you a better rider. Sorry, but this is the truth. I grew up riding many kinds of horses. And I was lucky to have some very good ones, “for what they were”. I was a good enough rider to be able to “posture” a horse and get decent scores. Then I sat on my first Warmblood. It really wasn’t even a very good one, but oh, the difference. I’ll never forget that feeling. So I sucked it up, realized that the horses I was breeding were nice horses, but not “appropriate” for what I wanted to do. I did exactly what Ms. Sydnor recomends. I found an appropriate horse, borrowed the money and bought him.

I am very surprised at the rancor this “viewpoint” has stirred up. If you want to do cutting, get a stock horse. If you want to do endurance, get an Arab. If you want to win the K Derby, get a TB. If you want to do 5 gaited, get a TWH and so on and so forth. Why would Dressage be any different???

My disclaimer: I’m not saying that all WBs are WONDERFUL and that all non-WBs are “not appropriate”. I’m talking generally, here. One should always buy the best horse that is within their financial and physical capabilities. But it is hardly a crime to borrow money to buy a horse :lol:[/QUOTE]
I’m glad you have found your favorite type of horse! Isn’t it a wonderful feeling! But I firmly stand by the belief that the only thing WBs are better for is competition. The appeal of dressage was supposed to be that it was training for all breeds, but now you can’t even do it at home unless you have a certain type of horse? :confused: Dressage is hundreds of years old, so how did horses in the past manage to do it before the modern WB type existed?

Anyway, not everyone likes or prefers WBs for whatever reason. :yes: I’ve ridden many well-trained and expensive WBs, and while they are beautiful horses they just aren’t my cup of tea. But I have found a breed that does fit my needs better. Does this mean I can’t learn dressage? Or that my horse can’t learn it either?

It is very distasteful when someone suggests that I switch breeds, much less get a new horse. I’ve made it clear that I don’t want to go to the Olympics, that I own my horses for life, that I’m in this for fun. I don’t think I’m that unusual. I know this is hard to believe, but I ride dressage, and I would NOT be happier with a WB! :winkgrin:

#303

Patty, well said and agreed 100%.

We are also fortunate that there are the Canticles of the world who love the purity of dressage for the physical development that it can offer ALL types of horses.

I value it for the same reason and have used this approach to improved physical development on every breed from ASBs, to Arabs to draft crosses to QH’s and also before I got WB’s … mostly I rode TB’s.

No one’s arguing with you Canticle. Stay with the horse that works for you and GO HAVE A BALL WITH YOUR HORSE. That is what it is ALL about, according to your own design.

We each have a design in mind for what we want to get back from our efforts, and other investments. For those of us wanting to go a ways up the levels (I’ve waited over 15 years to have this opportunity primarily because I DID NOT TAKE OUT THAT LOAN if you read my previous post … ), and do reasonably well, we are likely to select a horse most suited to the sport and least likely to develop a painful unsoundness because of it.

Personally, I think that anyone with aggressive goals is responsible for selecting the most physically suitable partner for the intended job -[I] regardless of the discipline! [/I] … A poor selection can otherwise break a horse down very quickly.

Magnum

#304

Perhaps some of us view it as different because we were brought up to believe that dressage training benefited every horse. I also got involved in dressage at a time (early 1980’s) when WB’s did not dominate the sport in the US…we had several very nice TB’s like Keen, Jonathan Swift, Gulliver and other breeds or crossbreds like Seldom Seen, Moga, and Bao doing respectably well for the times. I never even heard anyone say that they were an “off” breed for dressage until the WB’s became very popular in a decade later.

Certainly some types of horses struggle with dressage work but I have found over the years that the vast majority can do very decent lower level work with little stress on them physically…and certainly it is not cruel to ask them to as it has been suggested in this topic. It helps make them better athletes and more pleasant riding horses.

I do not feel that a person showing a QH (amateur) is any less serious that that person showing a fancy WB but we all work within our own limitations and likes/dislikes. Not everyone can afford a WB or wants to go into debt, so they work with another breed and are fulfilled. To many the journey is not about being competitive or winning but rather about the training and partnership with the horse.

I certainly agree that any purpose bred horse will more likely be capable of doing that for which it was bred such as a WB but can you imagine if someone had purposely bred TB’s or a certain TB cross or mix for talent for dressage back in the 1980’s to today? Certainly some people have specialized in that within some registered breeds like morgans but by and large, they have not and it’s been hit or miss with non WB breeds for dressage ability. I do think we have a number non WB’s that are capable of FEI level dressage (perhaps not competitively at national levels but capable) but I don’t think too many end up in the hands that will take them there today any more than most WB’s ever go to that level…and it is even less likely that will happen due to the thinking of folks like Cindy…that bothering to consider a non WB to ride/train is a waste of time these days of high specialization. So it perpetuates the thinking that only WB’s are really suitable for dressage at the higher levels as less and less people even consider riding a non WB. It is unfortunate as I think the diversity of breeds competing is fun to see…and I enjoy looking at the All Breed awards every year and am considering trying for one myself in the next few years with my horse in his breed.

#305

I will also go a step further in saying that to expect a horse that has a very hard time with collection to do FEI work is not very kind. Upper level dressage is HARD for a horse that is suited to it…ie has the right conformation, attitude ect. Most horses that were not bred to do this kind of work will struggle with it…it really isn’t some big German conspiracy. Canter pirouettes and Piaffe ect are as difficult for a horse to perform as GP jumping. If anyone I know took a horse not suited to a jumping career and had the philosophy that any breed can do it he/she would be looked down apon, and for good reason.

Most horses are not capable of sustained collection ie competative upper level dressage. Most WB’s are not even capable of it, but the horses that are suited and capable are USUALLY ie Baroque breeds or WB’s and you have better beleive you are going to pay for it…and you should.

I think alot of this stems from the idea that any horse can do FEI level work with the right training. This is so far from the truth it isn’t even funny!

#306

While I appreciate the fact that the majority of riders don’t have national or (God forbid) international aspirations, why do we condemn the folks that do?

Nobody, includiing Cindy, has ever said that you shouldn’t train your xyz bred in dressage and enjoy the heck out of it. All that some of us are saying is that IF you’re serious about competitive dressage and want to move up through the levels in an expedient fashion, it will behoove you to have a horse that is up to the challenge. That’s it… nothing more, and nothing less.

So please, just leave it at that because that’s all it was meant to be…

Merry Christmas!

#307

[QUOTE=Donella;2890298]
I will also go a step further in saying that to expect a horse that has a very hard time with collection to do FEI work is not very kind. Upper level dressage is HARD for a horse that is suited to it…ie has the right conformation, attitude ect. [/QUOTE]

While I’ve not muddled through every single post, I have to say I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the average horse can do the FEI movements well. Folks just seem to be saying (and I agree with them) that dressage can be a wonderful way to bond with and improve your horse and your riding, regardless of whether you’re able to pursue the upper levels or not. And if bonding with your horse/improving yourself and your horse is what you’re after, it makes little sense to go into debt to buy an expensive horse. (You will likely go into debt to KEEP a horse :wink: Why START OUT in the hole if you don’t have to?)

On the other hand, those that do have upper level aspirations ABSOLUTELY should be looking for uphill horses with strong backs and hind ends, higher set necks, steady natural rhythm, clean legs with correct angulation, expressive gaits, etc. And if you’ve got to go into debt to get the horse that you need for your FEI aspirations, then that’s your call to make.

But there are quite a lot of us who are thrilled to top out at Second Level (or Third, or First, or whatever the horse permits) and intersperse our dressage training with jumping, trail riding, foxhunting, polo, whatever. My TB has topped out at Second Level, and I’m perfectly happy with that. Her daughter (half Hanoverian) looks to be better conformed for dressage, so maybe she’ll go farther, which would be great. Of course, she also has jumped out of her field several times, so maybe I’ll just buy myself a big flowery hat and watch someone else show her in the jumpers. (She’s 2, so I don’t ride her yet… So only time will tell.) But the point is that I (and many of the other posters) just enjoy the journey. We’re hobbyists, not professionals. Riding for us is about love of the horse, not love of the sport. And because it’s about the love of the horse, yes, we get a little touchy when it’s insinuated (or sometimes outright stated) that our horses are unsuitable or inferior. Most of us would not trade our ‘unsuitable’ horses for ten international Grand Prix horses. Our focus is just different.

The problem that a lot of the folks on the other side of the argument are pointing out is that it’s not fair to ask a horse that isn’t conformed for FEI work to do FEI work. (Or Third Level work, or whatever the limitations of a particular horse dictate.) I wholeheartedly agree. And I readily admit that some people get way overzealous with their questionably conformed horses. And I completely agree that those people should stop and buy horses that are conformed for upper level dressage instead. And I certainly understand that horses that are conformed for upper level dressage are usually expensive. So none of those points are issues of contention, in my opinion.

I just don’t think that the average horse person should go into debt to buy a horse. I don’t think anyone should go into debt to buy a horse if they can help it. If Ms. Sydnor had qualified her advice… “If you have upper level aspirations, you need to spend the money on an upper level horse”… I would have no bone to pick. But not only did she not qualify her advice, she actually said that even those of us who don’t have big competitive goals shouldn’t hesitate to take out a ‘horse loan.’ I just don’t think that’s good advice.

#308

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2890056]
I certainly agree that any purpose bred horse will more likely be capable of doing that for which it was bred such as a WB but can you imagine if someone had purposely bred TB’s or a certain TB cross or mix for talent for dressage back in the 1980’s to today?[/QUOTE]

They have. They call them “warmbloods.” :lol: :lol: :lol:

#309

I haven’t waded through all of the posts but I don’t see where people condemned others with national and international aspirations for spending lots of money on horses/campaigning them. Obviously, if you plan to campaign at that level, you must spend alot of money.

I read Cindy’s article last night for the first time. It seems to me that she did not say that you should ride your xyz breed horse and enjoy the heck out of it, but rather that riding your xyz breed horse is a waste of time if you want to learn dressage at any level and become a better rider.

She did then go on to say that since “people think nothing of” buying a $20-30K car with a car loan, that people should just take out a personal loan (not same as car loan) and spend $30-80K on a horse. I found the ease at which she thinks throwing copious amounts of money at one’s hobby is the solution to make good/happy dressage riders to be a bit…odd. Yes, many people have taken out loans for nice horses and they’ve been successful and happy competitors. But many people have also taken out loans and bought horses that are lower level stars that can’t collect their gaits or can’t stay sound or sane with increased work. These owners tend to push their horses because of their perceived financial investment FAR more than I’ve ever seen people pushing xyz breeds and often resort to joint injections/meds/special shoes more quickly to keep their investments going. They don’t want to sell them because they don’t want to lose money. If only dressage was as easy as spending money…:wink:

J.

#310

Couldn’t agree more. I would never in a million years finance a horse. We are just now finally paying off debt from my old horses vet bills. It is bad enough to have to take on debt from unexpected vet bills/lamenesses I cannot fathom being in the hole just from the purchase of a horse.

I could see taking on debt for rider education if one has very serious goals since that is an EDUCATION that no one can take away from you and does not wane due to age, temperment or soundness issues.

In the U.S today we all want nice things and to have the best of everything. We can’t ALL have those things. There will always be someone with a nicer and more competitive horse regardless of how much you spend IMO.

#311

Ironic

I thought the funniest part was that the article was introduced as “Ride the best quality horse you CAN AFFORD”.

ummm - if you can only afford $4000 - then you should buy the best $4000 horse out there for the job you want to do.

Going into debt is not buying the best you can afford, it’s buying the best you can FINANCE.

#312

Very nicely put. :yes:

#313

First off, I haven’t read all 16 pages of this thread so if this has been said before sorry.

Someone (ODG?) said that learning dressage takes a lifetime or maybe it was two lifetimes. How many of us have that much time left? I read the article and agree with the author. I’m not at all surprised that she has gotten so much criticism from the bulletin boards. I’m dismayed that it has gotten personal though. I applaud her for telling it like it really is - learn the most you can in the limited time you have.

I started on a “off breed” showed for several years and won at local and regional levels. But, I also knew that even though I really loved him, dressage was hard for him because he was not bred for it and that it was unfair to ask him to continue. After months of painful discussions with my trainer I knew the best thing for both of us was to sell him - it was the best decision for both horse and rider. I bought the best horse I could afford (I didn’t take out a loan but did get substantial help from my DH), a young imported WB. I’ve learned an incredible amount from him in a a short time. He is more balanced so I am too - he’s very sensitive, so I’ve become more so with my aids. I have become a better rider because of him. The work is much easier and natural for him.

I like competing - it’s fun to go with my friends and I get feedback on how my training is progressing. I don’t think this means that I’m “less” of a dressage enthusiast than the others on this board - my goal is to learn and after al, isn’t dressage training about the horse AND rider? I made a conscious decision to advance as much as I can in this lifetime and realized that the best way to do it is with a horse that is bred for the sport.

Not everyone has the same goals - fine - but don’t criticize those that do want to improve. There are no shortcuts, but you can make the journey easier.

#314

[QUOTE=Come Shine;2899140]
I thought the funniest part was that the article was introduced as “Ride the best quality horse you CAN AFFORD”.

ummm - if you can only afford $4000 - then you should buy the best $4000 horse out there for the job you want to do.

Going into debt is not buying the best you can afford, it’s buying the best you can FINANCE.[/QUOTE]
Excuse me, but debt is, like anything else, something some people can afford while others can’t. Anyone familiar with finances knows very well that for tax and other reasons, it is sometimes better/more economical to buy things over time than to pay cash for them. There are, for example, many people who have more than enough assets to be able to buy and maintain expensive horses but have their $ tied up in investments, etc., likely to make enough money to make financing a horse more economical than pulling out the cash to pay for the animal outright.

For reasons like this, I think you you’re grossly misreading Cindy’s little article. Yes, indeed, she does mean “buy the best you can afford”-- whether that means taking the time and trouble to acquire the best $4000 horse you can if that is, indeed, your personal limit, or borrowing if you can afford to do that. As others have said, there are a lot of roads to that “best horse we can afford.” Some of us spend years looking. Some buy young and/or breed-- which, as others have said, also amounts to another way of paying over time. Still others go into partnerships of various kinds. The possibilities are limited only by the imagination. IMO, all Cindy is doing is recommending that people who want to be the best riders they can also take some trouble to buy the best horse for themselves they can instead of settling for the first animal that comes along in their price range.

Admittedly, I may be projecting a bit, having recently been involved with 3 people shopping for horses, all of whom leapt into acquiring the first cheap horses they looked at. Luckily, 1 was a rescue whose organization took him back when he proved unsuitable, another failed to vet, and the 3rd eventually proved resalable, but in all 3 cases, a great deal of time, money and/or trouble could have been saved if the purchasers had tried from the outset to buy the BEST horse they could afford instead of the first one that seemed attractively “affordable.”

#315

[QUOTE=ponytails;2900612]
First off, I haven’t read all 16 pages of this thread so if this has been said before sorry.

Someone (ODG?) said that learning dressage takes a lifetime or maybe it was two lifetimes. How many of us have that much time left? I read the article and agree with the author. I’m not at all surprised that she has gotten so much criticism from the bulletin boards. I’m dismayed that it has gotten personal though. I applaud her for telling it like it really is - learn the most you can in the limited time you have.

I started on a “off breed” showed for several years and won at local and regional levels. But, I also knew that even though I really loved him, dressage was hard for him because he was not bred for it and that it was unfair to ask him to continue. After months of painful discussions with my trainer I knew the best thing for both of us was to sell him - it was the best decision for both horse and rider. I bought the best horse I could afford (I didn’t take out a loan but did get substantial help from my DH), a young imported WB. I’ve learned an incredible amount from him in a a short time. He is more balanced so I am too - he’s very sensitive, so I’ve become more so with my aids. I have become a better rider because of him. The work is much easier and natural for him.

I like competing - it’s fun to go with my friends and I get feedback on how my training is progressing. I don’t think this means that I’m “less” of a dressage enthusiast than the others on this board - my goal is to learn and after al, isn’t dressage training about the horse AND rider? I made a conscious decision to advance as much as I can in this lifetime and realized that the best way to do it is with a horse that is bred for the sport.

Not everyone has the same goals - fine - but don’t criticize those that do want to improve. There are no shortcuts, but you can make the journey easier.[/QUOTE]
Just what is an “off-breed”? :winkgrin: You chose to purchase a young WB because it was best for you and your situation (notice I’m not saying best period!). What bothers me is the assumption that this route is automatically the quickest/easiest/best way to learn dressage. One could argue that you should have purchased a Lip or Andi if you were REALLY serious about choosing a horse with hundreds of years of dressage breeding behind it! :smiley: BUT instead what you did was purchase the horse that spoke to you! You got the horse YOU wanted, and that is no different than what the rest of us did! :slight_smile: The way you feel about your guy and the way he makes you feel – I get that from my guy too! :yes: We’re both out there having fun and loving our horses, but then someone like Cindy comes along and suggests that one of us might be wasting our time? That’s why I am so baffled by her “advice.”

I’m also wondering where all those abused “off-breed” dressage horses are being hidden! :lol:

#316

Ask Suzie!!!

It’s easy, just call Suzie Orman… she will tell you if you can afford it!! :lol: Most likely, she will tell you that you’re DENIED!!! :lol:

Seriously, I have not read through all 16 pages of this thread, but if I didn’t have a car payment (I have to have reliable transportation), a mortgage (have to live somewhere), student loans (didn’t have anyone to pay for college), and a current horse that takes lots of $$$ to keep going, then I maybe I would take out a loan for my dream horse.

Wait! I have my dream horse now!! He’s my cheap “dressage star” that I purchased as a yearling, but we didn’t quite make it because he had serious stifle and hock problems… now I am in it for 70k+, but I don’t care because he’s wonderful and I wouldn’t know what to do without him! Bottom line is, would it have made a difference if I had taken out a loan to purchase a really expensive youngster or would I be in it for over 100k+ with principal plus loan interest? Maybe or maybe not! It’s a gamble! :uhoh:

I like what someone at the beginning of this thread said: “never finance a hobby.” That’s really good advice!!! :yes:

#317

[QUOTE=canticle;2900897]
Just what is an “off-breed”? :winkgrin: You chose to purchase a young WB because it was best for you and your situation (notice I’m not saying best period!). What bothers me is the assumption that this route is automatically the quickest/easiest/best way to learn dressage. One could argue that you should have purchased a Lip or Andi if you were REALLY serious about choosing a horse with hundreds of years of dressage breeding behind it! :smiley: BUT instead what you did was purchase the horse that spoke to you! You got the horse YOU wanted, and that is no different than what the rest of us did! :slight_smile: The way you feel about your guy and the way he makes you feel – I get that from my guy too! :yes: We’re both out there having fun and loving our horses, but then someone like Cindy comes along and suggests that one of us might be wasting our time? That’s why I am so baffled by her “advice.”

I’m also wondering where all those abused “off-breed” dressage horses are being hidden! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Ditto, I guess I am wasting my time on a Saddlebred! Never mind he trained up from training level to Grand Prix in less than 5 years, is light, responsive, ammy friendly, comfortable gaits, anyone can ride him, beautiful, and I can guarantee you I did not have to take out a loan to buy him.

#318

[QUOTE=fish;2900644]

Admittedly, I may be projecting a bit, having recently been involved with 3 people shopping for horses, all of whom leapt into acquiring the first cheap horses they looked at. Luckily, 1 was a rescue whose organization took him back when he proved unsuitable, another failed to vet, and the 3rd eventually proved resalable, but in all 3 cases, a great deal of time, money and/or trouble could have been saved if the purchasers had tried from the outset to buy the BEST horse they could afford instead of the first one that seemed attractively “affordable.”[/QUOTE]

This could be another thread entirely. How to give advice to people buying a horse period. It did not matter one bit what the budget was for the horse, the people wanted something “CHEAP”. Somehow I can never get over being cheap when buying a horse. Eventually you will pay as much for a cheap horse as the expensive, or even just adequate horse.

Please people, when you get over the sticker price you will thank yourself if you buy a horse a quality. It does not have to be high $$$$$; but it may cost more than a bargain basement lame excuse for a horse. If you have the choice for stretching your budget to say 5k instead of buying a thousand dollar horse you may even be saving money in the long run. Is this way too much to do? I’m sure many people face this every day shopping for a horse.

The problem with the article to begin with is that it addressed higher $$$ tags. The average backyard rider who dabbles in dressage at local shows probably never needs a horse that costs more than $5,000.00. People do not want you to buy a twenty thousand, forty thousand WB to compete, that is ridiculous. But, they do want you to THINK harder about the nearly lame five hundred dollar horse that you think might get sound eventually. :slight_smile:

Buy the BEST you can afford. Sometimes affording it might stretch your pocketbook, but in the end will be far more rewarding. <JMHO>

#319

I certainly agree that any purpose bred horse will more likely be capable of doing that for which it was bred

:yes:

Reiterating myself here… as we’ve come back around to my point again…

Do not confuse PURPOSE BRED with expensive or purebred.

There are the rare individuals in just about every breed who are phenoms. Then there are horses bred for sport, who excel at sport. Some are expensive, some are not. Some are WB, some are not.

Why do people think that purpose bred has to equal expensive or has to equal a particular type/strain/line?

#320

[QUOTE=canticle;2900897]
The way you feel about your guy and the way he makes you feel – I get that from my guy too! :yes: We’re both out there having fun and loving our horses, but then someone like Cindy comes along and suggests that one of us might be wasting our time? That’s why I am so baffled by her “advice.”[/QUOTE]

Canticle, could you please point out the page # and paragraph (within the article in question) where Cindy stated that you are “wasting your time?”

Magnum

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