Go into debt for a horse???

[Sandy_M]

Here’s a post and a response to it from TOB that I think covers all the bases and express pretty much how I feel on this matter:

Quote:
In these times of rising costs just to keep horses, it is too bad that USDF can’t promote dressage that is affordable for its membership. It is too bad it can’t promote the training of all types of riding horses.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

This is where I have a problem with the article. I don’t disagree with most of what it says, but it’s the overall philosophy behind it that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I accept that her advice is great advice for people with high competition aspirations. However, she specifically stated in her article that she wasn’t only talking about competition, so therein lies the rub.

I don’t want to eliminate the competition/Olympic sport side of dressage (although there are some problems with how it is currently influencing the sport) - it has an important place. However, to make dressage ALL ABOUT top competitions/fancy $$$$ horses/getting to GP - I have a problem with. Not that that is what Cindy is trying to do, but the emphasis (and the emphasis of that entire DT issue, and of the USDF/GLobal Dressage Forum/etc.) is focused on that WAY too much.

What I mean is that I see a BIG lack of addressing: making dressage affordable to more people, so it’s not an “exclusive” sport of the rich; and dressage for the “average” horse and “average” rider (which is really what dressage is fundamentally about - improving the horse’s athletic ability regardless of his “natural gaits”, i.e. correct training of all horses, period.) And improving the quality of riding in general, furthering classical dressage principles - exactly like Klimke said:
Quote:
Now we breed only Rembrants and Gigilos, if we can -and therefore we have developed the sport. The riding has not become better.
(Thanks for that quote dressageRN .)

That is what I have a problem with. While top competition definitely has a place in dressage, it shouldn’t be what dressage is all about. And reading that whole DT issue (and many of their articles, not just Cindy’s), that’s exactly the impression that I came away with.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And I would add, again, that it is the thought that one cannot become a good rider UNLESS one has that expensive horse… whether one wants to compete or not… also leaves a bad taste in MY mouth.

[Suzier]

[QUOTE=Happy Feet;2929854]
I also don’t think that just switching to a Warmblood will help, on the contrary I think it is the training that is much more important than the breed. People should buy horses trained further than themselfs if able. [/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I’m sure it is not the only way to become a great rider, but it certainly helps. I do think that having access to a highly-trained, correct schoolmaster – whether owned, leased, or ridden in lessons – would be really beneficial to most riders (including myself!) regardless of their goals. Learning what correct feels like would make you a better rider, and then you could go apply that in the show ring, or on your WB, or on the training-level-love-of-your-life. It’s all good. But, from reading what other people here have written, it doesn’t sound like that was the tone of the article. I’d like to hope that it was what the author meant, though!!

I kind of feel stuck in the middle here. While I aspire to be at the same capability level of a “dressage elite” rider, I will not be aiming to win any international competitions – probably ever. I’d love to see more focus on adult ammys who want to be able to learn to train at the FEI levels and show for fun but not, like, WIN anything or represent the US on anything or anything like that. Because I’m not willing to do training level my whole life and will make some sacrifices and buy, when I finally can, a horse best suited to dressage (and am willing to sell and buy a different one if needed), but I’m also not going to be taking out any loans I have no hope of repaying or quitting my day job. Because I know I’m not that good, but I’d like to be better. If that makes any sense.

[siegi_b]

… and here I thought I was all over this bs…

Quote by canticle “I think people can decide for themselves what breed of horse to ride and who to train with. It’s bad form to try to convert people who are happy where they are.”

Don’t you realize that you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth? If people can decide for themselves what breed to ride and who to train with, shouldn’t they be able to “ward off” those converting types? And if people can make all those decisions, then why are they unable to read an article in a magazine without feeling the need to follow it to the letter?

Why do you folks have to go on a whine and complain about an article that was written for an audience that is obviously different from you? Why don’t you go find another discipline that you dabble in and then complain when a person successful in this discipline writes an article about how it should be done when it’s not the way you’re doing it? Or isn’t there a convenient forum where you can drone on and on and on?

We’ve heard your opinons on the subject matter, canticle and Sandy M, and more than once. Repeating them does not change our opinon and I assume that you wouldn’t ever try to convert us happy folks.

[Happy_Feet]

[QUOTE=Suzier;2930210]

I kind of feel stuck in the middle here. While I aspire to be at the same capability level of a “dressage elite” rider, I will not be aiming to win any international competitions – probably ever. I’d love to see more focus on adult ammys who want to be able to learn to train at the FEI levels and show for fun but not, like, WIN anything or represent the US on anything or anything like that. Because I’m not willing to do training level my whole life and will make some sacrifices and buy, when I finally can, a horse best suited to dressage (and am willing to sell and buy a different one if needed), but I’m also not going to be taking out any loans I have no hope of repaying or quitting my day job. Because I know I’m not that good, but I’d like to be better. If that makes any sense.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think getting a “better quality” horse (whether meaning in training or breeding) has to be just for those who want to represent the US.
Back to my original point, The monthly bills are the same no matter what you have in barn, hay, grain, shavings, etc, etc all cost the same. Have fun with the nicest horse you can get - Coming home happy everyday with something new you have accomplished - PRICELESS!

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2930237]
… Why do you folks have to go on a whine and complain about an article that was written for an audience that is obviously different from you? Why don’t you go find another discipline that you dabble in and then complain when a person successful in this discipline writes an article about how it should be done when it’s not the way you’re doing it? Or isn’t there a convenient forum where you can drone on and on and on?[/QUOTE]

So…do you just “bleep” over the part when the article indicated that what she said applied to EVERYONE, including non-competitive people, and NOT just the uber-competitive, Olympic track people?

I’ve shown H/J to 4’6", and done five bar competitions to 5’2"; I’ve evented through prelim and done some intermediate level Combined Tests; I’ve trail ridden extensively, for pleasure and competitively; I’ve shown dressage successfuly through 2nd level, and had the opportunity to ride some nice WB and non-WB trained to FEI levels. So if I find an article in the primary dressage magazine in this country that is condescending and oblivious to the real life situations of the vast majority of AA dressage competitors, I am ignorant of reality and I should just GO AWAY? Well… that’s not an ELITEST attitude in the least, is it? I think the problem is as the person I cited above says: It is becoming ALL about the uber-horses and Olympic competition - yet the vast majority of USDF members are AAs that don’t live in that rarified world. Such advice is not helpful in the least. And frankly, if it were intended for the people aiming for the top - I think they already KNOW what is necessary.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2930237]
… and here I thought I was all over this bs…

Quote by canticle “I think people can decide for themselves what breed of horse to ride and who to train with. It’s bad form to try to convert people who are happy where they are.”

Don’t you realize that you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth? If people can decide for themselves what breed to ride and who to train with, shouldn’t they be able to “ward off” those converting types? And if people can make all those decisions, then why are they unable to read an article in a magazine without feeling the need to follow it to the letter?[/QUOTE]
Don’t worry, I don’t think anyone’s minds will be changed by Sydnor and her evangelical sermon. If anything, she has only made people firmer in the convictions they already have. My point was that it is poor form to CONSTANTLY proselytize to those of different faiths. Do you go around handing out bibles to people who are on their way to mosque? I should sure hope not! That would be EXTREMELY rude! So why is it ok to tell people that their horse is all wrong, they are wasting their time, not doing real dressage, etc. Are Jews not really praying?

Why do you folks have to go on a whine and complain about an article that was written for an audience that is obviously different from you? Why don’t you go find another discipline that you dabble in and then complain when a person successful in this discipline writes an article about how it should be done when it’s not the way you’re doing it? Or isn’t there a convenient forum where you can drone on and on and on?

Sydnor implies that her audience is ANY dressage rider, even non-competitors. She thinks we would be better riders if we switched to her type of horse (and I’m sure she has some for sale). Her opinion about “how it should be done” is not a universal truth, but rather her viewpoint from her very limited experiences, with her personal biases very much included. Perhaps she should have written a more autobiographical piece instead making myopic normative statements.

We’ve heard your opinons on the subject matter, canticle and Sandy M, and more than once. Repeating them does not change our opinon and I assume that you wouldn’t ever try to convert us happy folks.

My opinion is simply to live and let live. There are many ways to do dressage, so do it the way that makes you happy!! But please stop being so condescending to those of different faiths. :no:

[egontoast]

Don’t worry, I don’t think anyone’s minds will be changed by Sydnor and her evangelical sermon. If anything, she has only made people firmer in the convictions they already have. My point was that it is poor form to CONSTANTLY proselytize to those of different faiths. Do you go around handing out bibles to people who are on their way to mosque? I should sure hope not! That would be EXTREMELY rude! So why is it ok to tell people that their horse is all wrong, they are wasting their time, not doing real dressage, etc. Are Jews not really praying

:eek:

It has to be said

Where’s The Fruitbat?

[Sithly]

[QUOTE=egontoast;2930766]
:eek:

It has to be said

Where’s The Fruitbat?[/QUOTE]

No kidding. I’d like to officially kick Canticle off my side. She’s making my side look bad.

[siegi_b]

Sandy M - what is wrong with ONE person advocating buying the best horse you can afford in order to be competitive in your chosen discipline??" Why is it elitist? When Merrill Lynch says to buy XXYYZZ stock on margin (meaning you really can’t afford to buy it), do you rant and rave about their elitist attitude? There are plenty of experts in all kinds of fields that will advise you to do XYZ, and people either ignore it, take some part of it and do it, or buy it hook, line and sinker. What’s the problem? You DO have a choice, you know?

I just don’t understand why Cindy’s article is hitting so close to home with a couple of you folks…

[lizathenag]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2930906]
I just don’t understand why Cindy’s article is hitting so close to home with a couple of you folks…[/QUOTE]

I think it is that what comes across is that to succeed you need to spend money on a better horse. Sort of takes the rider out of the equation.

[camohn]

Everyone has priorites. My hubby and I both love horses and have em. The priorites are different though. He wants to buy cheap horses and a new sports car every 3 years. Spending more money on the car is his thing. I have a 1997 Explorer I will drive til it dies and am in fact making payments on the latest horse (9 payments to go!). Normally I personally don’t in fact buy horses I can’t afford. But this is different. My much beloved stallion died last year. He only had one colt in his last foal crop and he was not bred by me. If I wanted his last son back I had to buy him back.

[lexhex]

yeikes!

What is up with the religious fervor?!:eek:

Ms Snydor is not saying anyone’s horse is BAD and she is not making personal attacks on anyone.

I understand that some people may have differing opinions but it seems like some folks want to go lynching! Lets get a little more perspective folks!

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Perhaps some will remember the words attributed to Marie-Antoinette when she was told that the people have no bread.

“Then let them eat cake!” said Marie. These words were an example of how out of touch the French aristocracy was with the plight of the average French citizen.

I believe that a statement that the average rider who cannot afford a $20k- $50k horse will always be inferior to someone who can afford one shows the same callous attitude.

“Let them get a loan!” she said.

[dkcbr]

I can’t believe this thread got disinterred.

I believe that a statement that the average rider who cannot afford a $20k- $50k horse will always be inferior to someone who can afford one shows the same callous attitude.

I didn’t see that written anywhere. If I had, I would have laffed.

[in_the_zone]

I’d never willingly put myself in debt over the purchase price of a horse. Vet bills, however, are another matter entirely!

[fish]

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;2935618]
Perhaps some will remember the words attributed to Marie-Antoinette when she was told that the people have no bread.

“Then let them eat cake!” said Marie. These words were an example of how out of touch the French aristocracy was with the plight of the average French citizen.

I believe that a statement that the average rider who cannot afford a $20k- $50k horse will always be inferior to someone who can afford one shows the same callous attitude.

“Let them get a loan!” she said.[/QUOTE]

That’s NOT what she said. What she was saying was, I believe, more along the lines of suggesting that those who borrow substantial amounts of $ to buy expensive cars might consider purchasing a less expensive car and a more expensive horse.

Some of us DO things very much along those lines. I drive a 1991 Honda and ride $40,000 horses. I’ve found ways to avoid going into debt for either, but have had to borrow to cover vets bills (2 colic surgeries and an antibody resistant infection), a truck capable of pulling my trailer, and expenses related to an illness in the family. Some people thought I was nuts for going ahead with the 2nd colic surgery, but we all look at life from our own unique perspectives and do what we feel we must relative to our own experiences and values.

I’ve known Cindy for years and don’t think she’s “out of touch” at all. As Eliza suggests, Cindy herself spent a lot of years riding and competing on very inexpensive horses when she probably could have afforded and purchased a lot better if she had fully recognized the value of doing so. She knows very well from her own experience that what people think/say they can or cannot afford is often as much an expression of priorities as it is financial limitations.

E.g. – for even clearer examples of how subjective what one “can afford” can be-- I once rode horses for a family who came back from a vacation to Hawaii punctuated by an art-shopping trip in Boston and told me that they “couldn’t afford” to reset their horses’ shoes that month. I’ve also worked for people who said they “couldn’t afford” to pay more than $3500 for a horse, and then took out a $20,000+ loan to buy a new car they considered a necessity. I think it’s people like this who Cindy is asking to reconsider their options and priorities a little.

[canticle]

But what if someone doesn’t WANT to spend $40,000 on a horse? It’s a personal choice, and Cindy has no business trying to get people to change their priorities.

For me, switching to a strange horse that costs more than a car would be a definite step DOWN. Someone else might be very attached to their old car and think nothing of trading in horses every few years.

Why should we put any more stock in Sydnor’s opinions? What makes her priorities superior? And what does any of this have anything to do with DRESSAGE?

[Bogey2]

But what if someone doesn’t WANT to spend $40,000 on a horse? It’s a personal choice, and Cindy has no business trying to get people to change their priorities.

good lord…Ms. Sydnor is a well respected trainer who wrote an article…do you think that you personally are being pressured to change your priorities and buy a 40,000. horse? If so, you should be careful what you read…you may end up with a sportscar and a McMansion too!:lol:

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2930906]
Sandy M - what is wrong with ONE person advocating buying the best horse you can afford in order to be competitive in your chosen discipline??" Why is it elitist? When Merrill Lynch says to buy XXYYZZ stock on margin (meaning you really can’t afford to buy it), do you rant and rave about their elitist attitude? There are plenty of experts in all kinds of fields that will advise you to do XYZ, and people either ignore it, take some part of it and do it, or buy it hook, line and sinker. What’s the problem? You DO have a choice, you know?

I just don’t understand why Cindy’s article is hitting so close to home with a couple of you folks…[/QUOTE]

Do you not think that if someone could AFFORD a $20K to $50K horse, they would have already purchased it??? It is, indeed, elitest to recommend to someone who has said, “I can only afford $5K and this is the best horse I could get for that price,” that they GO INTO DEBT to purchase a luxury, and a very fragile luxury at that. It is elitest to maintain that the ONLY way one can become a good rider is to have a “good,” i.e., EXPENSIVE horse and to dismiss efforts with anything less than that expensive horse as WASTED. Indeed, buying stock on margin is a risky business and not one recommend to a buyer who CANNOT AFFORD THE LOSS. If one cannot afford that fancy horse, going into debt to buy it is not a good idea and attitude projected is - yes - elitest. So out of touch with the average amateur rider - unless, as I have said before, you think someone like Mary Alice Malone or Karen Offield is the “average” amateur in dressage these days.

Again, no one disputes the idea that if you want to compete at the highest level, you need the horsepower to do so. But the article was not directed to ONLY people with that ambition. It was addressed even to those who do not compete. Do I care, personally, that my horse did not cost $20K - $50K? No. Will the article change my mind - cause me to rush out and get out a loan for that $20K to $50 horse? No. But it DOES upset me that this is the mindset of people with influence in our sport: That if you don’t have the money to get an expensive horse, you are wasting your time in dressage.

[Bogey2]

That if you don’t have the money to get an expensive horse, you are wasting your time in dressage.

maybe I need to go read the article again…she said you were wasting your time?
Once in a while really talented people have to take out that loan to work towards the goal of making it to the top…I respect that.
I don’t think I am wasting my time with my average priced horses…and I think Ms. Sydnor would agree if she met me and my horses. :yes: