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Go into debt for a horse???

Dressage
#421

[QUOTE=Bogey2;2936280]
maybe I need to go read the article again…she said you were wasting your time?
Once in a while really talented people have to take out that loan to work towards the goal of making it to the top…I respect that.
I don’t think I am wasting my time with my average priced horses…and I think Ms. Sydnor would agree if she met me and my horses. :yes:[/QUOTE]

That’s part of the problem with the column. It may have been poorly edited, something added, something left out. But while I think no one would disagree that to reach high levels, you need the appropriate horse (which usually means $$$$$), and while Ms. Sydnor herself - both from references in the article and from personal comments by others here who know/know of her - she has no problem working with/fairly judging “non-fancy” horses, she did say that putting the effort into such horses was “wasting time.” That comment was part of the title of the article. Also the statement that her comments applied to ALL riders, including those who do not even show, not just those with FEI ambitions.

#422

[QUOTE=canticle;2936147]
But what if someone doesn’t WANT to spend $40,000 on a horse? It’s a personal choice, and Cindy has no business trying to get people to change their priorities.

For me, switching to a strange horse that costs more than a car would be a definite step DOWN. Someone else might be very attached to their old car and think nothing of trading in horses every few years.

Why should we put any more stock in Sydnor’s opinions? What makes her priorities superior? And what does any of this have anything to do with DRESSAGE? :confused:[/QUOTE]

No one has suggested that Cindy’s opinions or priorities are “superior.” What I am suggesting is that we all stand to learn from each others’ experiences if we take the trouble to try and understand the other person’s point of view before attacking it-- a courtesy I think many have failed to extend to Cindy. She’s trying to share something she believes she’s learned from her own experience. I fail to understand why she (let alone the magazine) is being so violently attacked for her attempt to do so.

If someone doesn’t want to spend $40,000 for a horse, it is, indeed, a personal choice. When someone does make such a decision, however, I think we should be as willing to hear the reasoning behind it (even if it involves taking out a loan) with as much respect as we would any other.

As for what this has to do with DRESSAGE-- that would take a book I don’t have the time to write. Suffice it to say that I’ve been to very few clinics lately in which the quality of horses being bred recently has not been discussed as having tremendous impact on equestrian sports.

#423

I have no problem respecting people who have different priorities and made different personal choices. But I do have problem when someone claims that they are magickally a better rider because of their breed preference. I also do not like being told I am wasting my time, especially from someone I would have gone to for training advice. The respect needs to flow both ways.

As for what this has to do with DRESSAGE-- that would take a book I don’t have the time to write. Suffice it to say that I’ve been to very few clinics lately in which the quality of horses being bred recently has not been discussed as having tremendous impact on equestrian sports.

Good quality or bad quality? Positive or negative impact?

Sydnor could have avoided the questions and controversy if she had simply limited her statements to those whose primary goal is to compete successfully at the highest levels.

#424

[quote=fish;2936307
If someone doesn’t want to spend $40,000 for a horse, it is, indeed, a personal choice. When someone does make such a decision, however, I think we should be as willing to hear the reasoning behind it (even if it involves taking out a loan) with as much respect as we would any other.

[/quote]

According to the US Census Bureau in 2005:
The median household income was roughly $46,000.
The median annual earnings for someone in the labor force age 25 or older were $32,000.
The median household per capita income, the amount of money households are able to allocate to each of their members, was $24,000.

I suggest that this is not a real “choice” at all for most people. Let them eat cake, I say!

#425

But I do have problem when someone claims that they are magickally a better rider because of their breed preference.

I think I’m losing track of this thread. Who said this? :confused:

#426

According to the US Census Bureau in 2005:
The median household income was roughly $46,000.
The median annual earnings for someone in the labor force age 25 or older were $32,000.
The median household per capita income, the amount of money households are able to allocate to each of their members, was $24,000.

I suggest that this is not a real “choice” at all for most people. Let them eat cake, I say!

I’m not sure I understand the point behind your post. Hopefully, the vast majority of the population represented by the medians is not aiming for upper level dressage. :confused:

#427

[QUOTE=dkcbr;2936370]
I think I’m losing track of this thread. Who said this? :confused:[/QUOTE]

SLC. :lol::lol::lol:

#428

[QUOTE=dkcbr;2936379]
I’m not sure I understand the point behind your post. Hopefully, the vast majority of the population represented by the medians is not aiming for upper level dressage. :confused:[/QUOTE]

BUT THE ARTICLE DID NOT LIMIT ITS ADVICE TO THOSE WHO ARE “AIMING FOR UPPER LEVEL DRESSAGE.” It said that ANYONE - even non-showing, non-competitive people - could not be “good” riders unless they invested in that minimum five-figure horse.

#429

Thank you, Sandy. My point exactly.

#430

Your kidding right? I’m sorry but I can think of several very serious amateur riders with big goals and dreams that simply CANNOT afford to purchase a 40k+ horse yet they work harder than several riders I know that HAVE 40k+ dollar horses?? So whose more serious???

. I do not understand how spending more money on a horse translates into “serious competitor” no more than owning a very expensive pair of skis makes one a “serious skier”. Some have the dough to buy nice fancy things for their hobbies/sports they enjoy…others must simply make do with what they have. No one is neccessarily more goal driven or serious than another as a result.

Not to mention the costs of training and competing at the uppermost levels would make it very difficult for anyone w/ out a very good income to be successful regardless of how much they spent on their horse.

I think the examples you give above of “not affording” are more examples of less serious riders who clearly have other priorities. Riders such as those mentioned in your example I highly doubt have any real desire to compete at the upper levels to begin with.

#431

Wow, absolutely ridiculous.

#432

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;2936362]
According to the US Census Bureau in 2005:
The median household income was roughly $46,000.
The median annual earnings for someone in the labor force age 25 or older were $32,000.
The median household per capita income, the amount of money households are able to allocate to each of their members, was $24,000.

I suggest that this is not a real “choice” at all for most people. Let them eat cake, I say![/QUOTE]

what in the world does this have to do with anything? what a worthless contribution to try to prove your point.

this information (which is actually RELATED to what we are talking about) is from 1998, i’m sure the numbers have gone up since then:

In our first year, we are seeking sponsors from our region who have an interest in supporting a high-level, equestrian sport whose competitors and spectators fit the following demographics:

  • Median income (dressage) $80,000 - 100,000 (as reported in national publications)

  • Own trucks, multiple vehicles, property owners likely to own a tractor

  • Are active, athletic and educated

  • Travel for shows, vacations and educational events

  • US Show horse numbers approach 2 million

  • 3.6 million people participate in horse shows annually, in 1994 there were more than 14,000 sanctioned horse shows.

Our national horse industry is a serious, huge, and economically diverse and productive business with a $112.1 billion impact on the US gross domestic product with showing and recreation each contributing more than 25% of that total. (For reference, that is greater than the combined output of the motion picture services, rail transport, furniture, and tobacco products!)

#433

To be fair, she did not say that. She said that riding a better quality horse makes you a “better” rider, not that you would not be a “good” rider.

#434

It said that ANYONE - even non-showing, non-competitive people - could not be “good” riders unless they invested in that minimum five-figure horse.

:lol:

This is actually what is said (direct quote from the article):

when riding a better quality horse, you actually do become a better rider. Whereas, riding an inferior quality horse, even though you do become somewhat skillful by making up for some of his shortcomings, you cannot create the gaits of a good mover.

You are really reaching to come up with your interpretation! :yes:

In addition, there are only six paragraphs in the article, and three of them mention competition, two refer to winning, and one contains reference to a “10” score. I think it’s pretty hard to miss that the intended audience for the five-figured horse is the rider with competitive aspirations!

#435

She’s wrong on so many levels. That horse breed determines rider skill. That her favorite breeds are “better quality”. That dressage is about high stepping and fancy movers. She’s welcome to her opinions, but when she’s wrong she’s dead wrong. :no:

#436

[QUOTE=dkcbr;2936702]
:lol:

This is actually what is said (direct quote from the article):

You are really reaching to come up with your interpretation! :yes:

In addition, there are only six paragraphs in the article, and three of them mention competition, two refer to winning, and one contains reference to a “10” score. I think it’s pretty hard to miss that the intended audience for the five-figured horse is the rider with competitive aspirations![/QUOTE]

Quote: You cannot create the gaits of a good mover…

In other words, you can’t be a better rider, you can’t “do dressage” unless you have the GAITS… so much for “dressage is about training” - which is what the USDF mission statement says dressage is. So “competitive dressage” and expensive gaits trumps all else. And if you aren’t willing to pony up - either for financial or other reasons - you aren’t serious about dressage, you can’t improve, you are wasting your time. I don’t think I or anyone else who was disturbed by this article is saying that “lesser” horses should be accorded the same sort of gaits scores, or that poor riding should be rewarded, or that “any” horse CAN make it all the way. That patently is not true. But to say that to become a better rider, one MUST have a five-figure WB… this IS elitism.

Again - and how many times must we say it - IF the article was restricted to advice to those with definite FEI ambitions, no one would dispute the validity of her advice. If you want to compete at that level you need not only the horse power, but sponsors, etc. Even just having “THE horse” isn’t enough. But she addressed to ANYONE interested in doing dressage at any level. You’re wasting your time with lesser horses. It’s not about the journey, it’s about winning, it’s about the gaits. While I might think it foolish, it’s up to the individual if they want to go into debt to finance such a delicate creature for the sake of their hobby. But to state that this is NECESSARY for any level of success in dressage is NOT true and she does a disservice in giving such advice to EVERYONE.

#437

[QUOTE=dkcbr;2936702]
:lol:

In addition, there are only six paragraphs in the article, and three of them mention competition, two refer to winning, and one contains reference to a “10” score. I think it’s pretty hard to miss that the intended audience for the five-figured horse is the rider with competitive aspirations![/QUOTE]

But there is ONE paragraph that says that her advice ALSO applies to the Non-competitive, non showing rider. If you want to be better, get a better horse and go into debt, if necessary to do so. If you want to go by the tone of the rest of the article, you would be entirely correct: So where was the DT editor who did not note the MAJOR discrepancy between: this advice applies to “competition, winning, a “10” score” and "this advice applies to EVERYONE.

#438

Sandy and Canticle, have you ever ridden a really nice mover? Have you been on a well trained upper level horse? They really can teach you a LOT more than an average horse. I know, I have been there…and am still taking the journey. I bought a weanling because that is all I could afford for my future …hopefully…Grand Prix horse. I have a 22 year-old schoolmaster I bought 6 years ago, for a damn good price and work hard to keep him sound. HE is the one that made me realize how much I was missing in my training riding a horse with gaits that were not well suited for dressage.

I never suggest that anyone spend more than they can afford on a horse…but a few of them have saved up an extra year or two so they could afford the quality they wanted.

Lastly, I do not know Ms. Sydnor personally, but I do know of her reputation and I think you have read way too much in to the article.

I am going to go pop open a beer, and grab a bag of popcorn now!:lol:

#439

Yes I have ridden all sorts of horses, and the ones that were “supposed” to impress me the most were usually the ones who left me feeling the most “blah”. If you need that type of horse to learn on that’s fine, but I know for a fact that it wouldn’t suit my needs. It may be hard to believe, but some people just have different personal preferences. Even some of my good friends continue think that I would “see the light” if only I were to give WBs another chance. :winkgrin: It’s ok to say stuff like that as a joke, but when you begin to truly believe it, that’s when I have to step in and correct you.

#440

Canticle - you will never be a Grand Prix dressage rider, so why are you even arguing?

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