Ah, Sandy, you are a cynic. Just like me. :lol:
[QUOTE=flshgordon;2879136]
You can feel sorry for my argument all you want, I feel sorry for you that you don’t give a damn and think nothing you do could ever negatively impact someone else. That’s the attitude that causes the problem in the first place—don’t care how your actions relate to others.[/QUOTE]
truly, i do know that financing my horse in no way could ever negatively impact someone else or the horse himself. and i never said that i “don’t give a damn”? perhaps the holidays are stressing you out or you have some anger issues. i am not saying that as a snark, but hopefully help you take a breath and relax a little bit.
Let me present you with my true example.
I needed a new horse. Found a great one costing $15,000. Did not have $15,000. Borrowed from my 401K and bought horse. Paid back 401K over 3 years. I still ate, the horse ate. The mortgage still got paid, etc. There was no risk of no one eating or having no where to live.
There is nothing wrong with borrowing money to buy a horse as long as the loan fits into the budget.
I could not afford a $30,000 even with a loan, so I didn’t go there. I think what Cindy says in the article is fine. Just people need to be smart about it.
Well, Cindy said in the article that you can get a nice horse for $20k to $50k. Apparently, according to her, you did not get a nice horse!!! :no:
Now do you get the problem with her advice?
I haven’t had a chance to read the article yet, so I feel funny about commenting. The impression I have from the quotes so far is that she’s saying you can pay a lot more for something that is trained and fancy enough to win right away, or you can spend more time (either buying a youngster and putting money into training, or waiting for the right deal) and get something just as nice for a lot less. If she’s recommending that the masses at Training and 1st Level all spend their home equity loan money on a horse, that’s rediculous. If someone is riding well at 2nd and 3rd and are actually being limited by their horse to learn more, and want to really be competitive at the upper levels, then they have to be realistic and spend either money or time usually. I think that recommending that a lot of people take out loans is rather irresponsible of her, if she was serious -the tone of the quote comes across as a bit sarcastic.
I think there are a lot of bargains out there right now - the horse market is pretty tough for sellers. I’ve seen several horses going 3rd or above who are available for part-lease in my area in the past couple of months. They have to stay at their own barn with their regular trainer, but it’s certainly something to consider for someone who’s budget conscious, or who wants to work with a more knowledgable horse in addition to the one they’re trying to retrain from other disciplines, develop from scratch, or whatever.
I only know one ammie who did that. She bought an Iron Springs 3-year old mare in the mid 90s. Her argument was the same … except she said she bought a fancy horse INSTEAD of the fancy car. Not that she got both of them.
She and the horse got to 2nd level and I still see them around looking beautiful and thrilled with each other.
I wouldn’t do it. But then I also don’t finance vacations or any number of other things that people feel comfortable paying on credit.
I agree that we’ve got a problem in the US with lending and borrowing, but not that a couple of horses is going to make all the difference.
[QUOTE=AllWeatherGal;2879397]
I only know one ammie who did that. She bought an Iron Springs 3-year old mare in the mid 90s. Her argument was the same … except she said she bought a fancy horse INSTEAD of the fancy car. Not that she got both of them.
She and the horse got to 2nd level and I still see them around looking beautiful and thrilled with each other.[/QUOTE]
I am curious: Is that just the present state of her training, i.e., she will most likely go further, or that is as far as she’s going to go? (I’m figuring mid-90s, 3 year old, so 1995 -the horse is now 17…?) Because, while we were hardly a brilliant pair, I was very happy with my old horse and we got to show 2nd, were schooling 3rd - and he cost $2,200 (NOT $22,000) as a 4.5 year old. He certainly isn’t anywhere near the quality of an Iron Springs Horse, but I had plenty of fun fun and got (mostly) decent scores and USDF All Breeds placings, etc. It’s fine that she made such a choice and that she is happy with it, but… does the average ammy REALLY need to go into debt for an expensive horse…to get to 2nd or 3rd level…??
Does the average driver really need an SUV or pick up truck or even a new car every few years?
Does the average person really need 10 pairs of black pumps?
Does the average horse really need 5 bridles?
How about a Starbucks latte vs coffee from home?
The answer to all of the above is no.
We (collective we) all have things that we don’t need but that we feel (rightly or wrongly) improve the quality of our lives. I’m sure we are all guilty on that score in some fashion or another so I have a hard time with some people deciding what is important for someone else.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;2879326]
Well, Cindy said in the article that you can get a nice horse for $20k to $50k. Apparently, according to her, you did not get a nice horse!!! :no:
Now do you get the problem with her advice?[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Cross posted from TOB-
I read it and TRIED to keep an open mind, and give her the benefit of the doubt. But then I read this, “Most [people] drive cars costing $25,000 to $30,000. Nobody thinks anything of that. My advice is to drive a cheaper car and own a better horse. you can get a very good horse for between $20,000 and $50,000.”
WHAT???
with the bottom 50% of taxpayers, having a gross income of 30,122 or less, I don’t think most people in this country ARE driving cars costing $25,000 to $30,000, since that would equate to oh, a YEAR’s salary. So maybe she meant MOST of her rich friends, but that’s not what was printed.
The article made me furious. She came across as ignorant and blatantly advised spending as much money as possible on a horse. I don’t believe she ought to be allowed to be a judge with an attitude like this - the entire article could be summed up as this- a $20k to $50k horse is a necessity to ride well.
“Certainly, it isn’t all about competition. You might not have any ambitions to win classes at shows with your horse”
“Only the best horse you can find is good enough.”
If DT is going to have advertising telling us to go out and spend mega bucks on something, at least they should get to know their target audience. Most of us (women who ride horses) would really prefer a handsome man as the spokesmodel.
median income in U.S. was $46,000 something at last reporting
sure - we all need to spend equivalent of annual income on horse
Here is my thought. If you are able to pay board and feed yourself and the horse with no problem on what you are already earning plus pay back the loan then go for it. If you are struggling already no way.
[QUOTE=Mozart;2879515]
Does the average driver really need an SUV or pick up truck or even a new car every few years?
Does the average person really need 10 pairs of black pumps?
Does the average horse really need 5 bridles?
How about a Starbucks latte vs coffee from home?
The answer to all of the above is no.
We (collective we) all have things that we don’t need but that we feel (rightly or wrongly) improve the quality of our lives. I’m sure we are all guilty on that score in some fashion or another so I have a hard time with some people deciding what is important for someone else.[/QUOTE]
LOL. No, indeed.
A new truck or car every few years? - My truck is an 1988, bought used, my trailer a 1993, also purchased used.
10 pairs of black pumps? I think I have MAYBE 4 pairs - and one pair is at least is 5 or 6 years old, the others, moderately expensive ($50-$75) pairs bought on sale for $20 each.
Five bridles - Semi-guilty - four. But my horse WON two of them.
Starbucks? Never. I’m a tea drinker and bring my own or use what is provided for free at my place of employment.
I got my DT today and read the article. I liked it and found it right on the money. I know a lot of people who will only spend 10k or whatever on the horse and then get a horse that is just not really suitable for competitive dressage. These same people will spend $3k for a saddle, $700 for board, lessons, training etc. They never get where they want to go and in my opinion throw a lot of money away. After a couple of years, they have more than 10k in training in a horse that if they are lucky is still worth 10k. Put that money into a bonifide dressage prospect and barring unsoundness, you can have a horse worth a lot more than you paid in a couple of years.
To care for a cheap horse is the same as to care for an expensive one, so I say buy the best one you can. People investing a lot of money in horses that will never be competitive when they dream of being competitive or who are delusional that they will be competitive is the bad investment in my mind.
If you don’t want to be competitive or if you are one of those super lucky ones who finds a horse that turns out to be a competitive FEI star for cheap well then the article was not directed to you. The author was not stating that horses who lack competitive qualities for dressage- gaits, conformation etc are not worth your time; merely that they are not in her mind worth the time and money of someone who wants to be competitive and move up the levels. That is not some crazy controversial thing…that’s just the truth.
The article was not advocating financing a horse to the point that you cannot afford its upkeep or feed your children. I remember a girl growing up whose mother took out a second on her house to afford a better horse and $$ for bigger competitions. That girl became an amazing Grand Prix Jumper rider and trainer so the investment was worth it in that case.
I have never financed a horse and I would not buy a horse that I could not afford insurance on or to take care of properly, but I cannot say that I would never borrow money to buy the horse of my dreams.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;2879326]
Well, Cindy said in the article that you can get a nice horse for $20k to $50k. Apparently, according to her, you did not get a nice horse!!! :no:
Now do you get the problem with her advice?[/QUOTE]
To be honest…A lot of people would think that I didn’t get a “nice” horse. He was perfect for me but no way would we have been competitive against the big boys.
The definition of NICE is subjective. Cindy’s definition probably USUALLY costs $20-50,000 (I sure you could get lucky and the market is changing but…). My definition of nice I’m sure is different from her’s. Your definition of nice is most likely different.
And FYI: I now own a $5,000 QH who I consider “very nice” but others would think wasn’t a good enough mover, wasn’t trained enough, etc.
My initial reaction to reading comment that was “what the hell…it’s time to go back to eventing where there is not pressure to mortgage your house to be competitively mounted and I don’t have to spend years trying to qualify to move up the levels.” Eventing for 99% of the ammies out there about getting around cross country and about a partnership with your horse…and having fun. Winning is icing on the cake but winning is hard to do with three phases to be good at so finishing without jumping penalties usually means you had a GREAT outing. The parties are great too…pizza and beer!
Dressage is turning into such an elitist sport and comments like that stating that only an expensive horse can be competitive and move up the levels just rubs me the wrong way. I seriously worry about the future of dressage when I see the direction it is being taken and the attitude of the people high up in the sport.
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2879790]
My initial reaction to reading comment that was “what the hell…it’s time to go back to eventing where there is not pressure to mortgage your house to be competitively mounted and I don’t have to spend years trying to qualify to move up the levels.” Eventing for 99% of the ammies out there about getting around cross country and about a partnership with your horse…and having fun. Winning is icing on the cake but winning is hard to do with three phases to be good at so finishing without jumping penalties usually means you had a GREAT outing. The parties are great too…pizza and beer!
Dressage is turning into such an elitist sport and comments like that stating that only an expensive horse can be competitive and move up the levels just rubs me the wrong way. I seriously worry about the future of dressage when I see the direction it is being taken and the attitude of the people high up in the sport.[/QUOTE]
Agree, but have seen it time and again…whenever money is involved, eventually it gets to be who has the most wins. I do not doubt that eventing will follow suit eventually (no pun intended). I hope not, though.
I disagree with most of your statements. I think a lot of it is an outgrowth of trying so hard to market your Spanish Colonial horses as ideal dressage mounts. I think you are also grossly misinterpeting the article as somehow threatening your marketing of what you have for sale. It’s in your best interests, you think, that everyone never reads anything that would suggest even in the most bizarre stretch of the imagination, that your Spanish Colonial horses aren’t ideal dressage mounts for any level.
Which I think is just not realistic.
I REALLY think a person cannot hope to compete at the elite levels of dressage (or any other riding sport, to be honest) and beat a lot of other people, on a horse that isn’t approaching the ideal of gaits, soundness, longevity in training, balance, SOMETHING.
It is really, really foolish to think that one is going to excel in ANY riding sport whith a horse that is not purpose bred and suited to the task at hand. You all would laugh if someone insisted their 2300 lb Belgian Draft Horse was going to win the Kentucky Derby, and that it would be easy on a horse like that to TRY, or that it’s not completely animal abuse to try to MAKE him run that fast, but you continue to have extremely unrealistic fantasies about your own sport, dressage, ie, that any horse of any type can excel at any level of the sport.
I can’t even COUNT how many times people have gone utterly ballistic here when someone starts talking about buying more costly horses. Talking about expensive horses here is usually a way to get the most incredibly insipid train wrecks going. Why? Because the average price paid for horses on this bulletin board is between 2 and 7 thousand dollars, so people go NUTS when anyone suggests one may have to spend a fair wad of cash to meet some more ambitious goals. And of COURSE we hear the ad nauseumly repeated ‘truism’ that everyone who buys these horses can’t ride 'em. Again, I think more because of that average price of horses people purchase on this bb. than any real reason.
I spent many many years, competing and learning a great deal on cheap, non-purpose bred horses. For 99% of people in dressage, this sort of horse is all they need to meet their goals. Because most people’s goals are very, very modest.
Carefully chosen from their breeds to be as suitable as possible, but by no stretch of the imagination, anything more than very average dressage mounts. When I rode them in small shows where all most people HAD who WON, was a correct, accurate test, I did very well. I had fun, I learned alot, and I met all my goals many times over. But my goals were created based on what horses I had and what my financial means were. Not vice versa.
I didn’t try to show them at Devon, or White Fences, or cry over not getting to the national championships or rant that I should be able to. I set rational goals for what I had. Otherwise it’s just ridiculous. And I think sitting there and beating your chest because you can’t beat everyone at some big fat Devon CDI with a 2000 dollar horse is a little beyond the pale.
Dressage is no more ‘elitist’ than any other riding sport, and though many here equate ‘elitist’ with ‘expensive’, I don’t. I’d like to concentrate on ‘expensive’ since ‘elitist’ is such an emotion-laden (and largely meaningless) term. IT is just as expensive to go out and buy a top class horse of any breed or type - prices of top quality horses are ALWAYS high, and always have been.
To a degree, ALL riding sports are ‘elitist’ because riding of all types has ALWAYS been expensive. You won’t find any homeless unemployed riding in dressage, you won’t find a whole lot of people under the average annual income at shows, either, students and others with less money who show usually have a family they can lean on for basic expenses even if mommy and dad won’t buy them a real expensive horse. My college friend with 3 horses she ‘can’t afford’ has ALWAYS had mom and dad’s help any time she really needed it, even if she was loathe to ask, she wasn’t out in the street starving and the horses never went hungry or without vet care, there was a foreign study program, grad school and a whole lot of other stuff in there. That isn’t unusual - poverty is VERY relative in the horse show community. with a few exceptions it isn’t really what I think of as actual ‘poverty’. Most people I know with financial problems the horse is the very first thing to be sold.
The USEF is attempting to make it more costly to move up the levels because that is what organizations do, is perpetuate themselves, promote themselves, and think up ways for them to charge people more money to use their organization. The USEF, ever since it got ahold of dressage, has grasped eagerly at ANY way they could to make it more expensive because that is more profitable to them, but ALL their fees STILL don’t add up to what board, purchase, training, lessons, vet bills and everything costs - the MAIN cost is STILL - keeping the damn horse.
I just do not see how anyone can sit so in judgement of other people’s goals, or other people’s financial decisions, and try to moralistically and loftily tell people what they should spend money on or what their goals should be! Everyone is different. They value different things, they make different decisions, they want different types and costs of horses.
What about the “heart factor”…???
That darm heart factor, falling in love with those big brown eyes and such always seems to control the checkbook :lol:
When you love it, its ok when you in debt so bad you have to eat mac and cheese, right?? LMAO
[QUOTE=STF;2880030]
What about the “heart factor”…???
That darm heart factor, falling in love with those big brown eyes and such always seems to control the checkbook :lol:
When you love it, its ok when you in debt so bad you have to eat mac and cheese, right?? LMAO[/QUOTE]
slc… What did I say that warranted a personal attack from the likes of you? I’m honored! As usual, you don’t have a clue as to my motivations and you are completely wrong…as you often are. It has nothing to do with my horses but everything to do with my background in eventing which is a non elitist sport if there ever was one.
My problem is any sport or representative of that sport that promotes purchasing 40k horses by amateurs so they can be competitive when the majority of them will never go above 3rd level. The sport is already too elitist and becoming more so by the moment with nonsense like this article and the proposed rule changes.
