I dont think we can judge anyone on personal prefrences. If I want to spend 50K on a horse, its my desire and debt, not anyone elses.
If I want to spend another 100K on a top of the model sports car, its my business too. Not anyone else. Could I have got a Madza and got from point A to point B? Yup… was the seat as nice, NOPE! :lol:
[QUOTE=QHDQ;2879312]
Let me present you with my true example.
I needed a new horse. Found a great one costing $15,000. Did not have $15,000. Borrowed from my 401K and bought horse. Paid back 401K over 3 years. I still ate, the horse ate. The mortgage still got paid, etc. There was no risk of no one eating or having no where to live.
There is nothing wrong with borrowing money to buy a horse as long as the loan fits into the budget.
I could not afford a $30,000 even with a loan, so I didn’t go there. I think what Cindy says in the article is fine. Just people need to be smart about it.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I have borrowed from “myself” like this to finance a horse, usually paid in full over a years time. I do not borrow above my budget.
I do not judge others who borrow to get a horse or a 4-wheeler (yep, know people who have done this, too, but I surely would not).
An article like this is not going to make me run out and buy a pony over my budget. Would I like one, you bet, but I cannot afford it.
If someone is going to be irresponsible, it does not matter what they read, they are going to be irresponsible.
The crazy neighbor I had ran up her debts so much, refinanced using OUR land (she used to own—fault of the title search), so when she went into foreclosure OUR name was in the paper along with hers. Enter the fee of a lawyer for us to pay to set it straight. Guess what, she skipped the darn country! THAT is the type of person who we all pay the price for, not necessarily those of us who finance a horse that we can afford to.
At the risk of flogging a dead topic, I guess what really irks me about the attitude in the article is how it pertains to another situation I am familiar with.
A lady I know has fallen under the spell of a trainer who pushes this mentality. Of course, a rider with talent and realistic aspirations to rise high in this sport knows what kind of horse they need to make it to the top, but as I said before, they are not taking their horse-buying advice from articles in DT. My friend, however, is a nice but not very talented re-rider who has fallen for this mentality hook, line and sinker. Under the “guidance” of her trainer, she has been buying horses she really can’t afford nor enjoy. Instead of being the happy owner of a sweet but limited horse, she is now the uneasy owner of a very nice prospect to which she is really unsuited. Instead of happily going to schooling shows, she is paying through the nose to watch her trainer ride her fancy horse at rated shows. She has unwittingly become the underwriter of her trainer’s aspirations, not her own.
I know – a fool and their money are soon parted, she’s an adult and needs to step back and take control of the situation, and this is really more an issue of disconnect between the goals of the trainer and the client. Where the article plays into the situation is that this is exactly the type of ammunition this trainer will use to talk my friend into dipping yet again into her retirement savings or maxing out her credit line for another buying trip to Europe.
[QUOTE=Lori;2880171]
The crazy neighbor I had ran up her debts so much, refinanced using OUR land (she used to own—fault of the title search), so when she went into foreclosure OUR name was in the paper along with hers. Enter the fee of a lawyer for us to pay to set it straight. Guess what, she skipped the darn country! THAT is the type of person who we all pay the price for, not necessarily those of us who finance a horse that we can afford to.[/QUOTE]That type of person is a different animal entirely. A guy who was former ranch help claimed our herds as loan collateral. That situation only came to light when the bank got ready to sieze someone else’s cattle that he’d also claimed. When the inspectors went to look over the cows, they encountered the owner. Surprise!!! We soon learned that there were three other places with cattle he’d claimed to own, which turned out to all be our land and cattle. The whole thing was a huge mess that went way above and beyond the things we were aware of at the time. He was in it for fraud in multiple Texas counties and actually had a federal case against him. Why did he do it? To fund his dream of becoming a country singer and produce his debut album. (FTR, this was no youngster trying to strike it big. He’s old. Very old. Age and failing health are the only reason he’s remained out of prison.)
With regard to (legitimately ;)) taking out a loan to purchase a horse, I would strongly discourage it. Getting into debt is much easier than getting out. Interest accrues at a phenomenal (and painful!) rate. In the case of unexpected bills, illness, unemployment, etc., how fast can you sell that horse and stop your financial free-fall? Murphy’s law dictates that the more desperate you are to sell, the longer the horse will stay on the market and the less money you’ll take for it. You may end up upside down in car deal, but at least blue book value provides some safety net. There’s no seller’s safety net with horses. I can understand a great pro taking out a loan to begin their training business and get their name out (which is still a risky endeavor), but for anyone else… no. In the best case scenario, it all works out. The likely scenario is you just set yourself up for heartache.
I, personally, would never be comfortable taking out a loan for any hobby unless I was confident that I would be able to get out of the situation if it became necessary. In the case of a pricey horse, generally speaking, those DO NOT sell quickly, unless you are willing to lower the price dramatically. So you’re in a lose-lose situation at that point, making payments on and caring for a horse when you don’t have the money to do so, but you can’t sell it either.
I haven’t read the article, but I would agree that if it seriously and openly gave the impression that anyone should be just willing to bite the bullet and take out a loan for a horse, that would be irresponsible.
What frustrates me about this is that I see soooooooo many riders on horses not built for dressage.
For many that is their reason…“that is all I could afford, I’m not going to borrow money to buy a horse”.
OK…sounds logical BUT.
Lets compare a hypothetical situation…$2000 TB…vs $15 000 WB or WB cross prospect.
Take a talented rider with little money to buy, just money for board and training.
After 6 or 7 years of training both horses are going well and the rider is ready to sell and upgrade.
$2000 TB is now a $10 000 TB with LOTS of good training but with a very limited market.
$15 000 WB prospect is now a $60 000+ PSG horse that is giving the owner some success at the shows and is quite marketable.
I guess what I am saying is…IF you have some riding skills and are going to be spending money on lesson, board, showing etc…it’s worth the extra investment. You’ll MOST LIKELY get more then the difference back when you sell the horse. It’s a sound investment which can be insured to protect yourself.
You’ll also likely have more enjoyment and satisfaction and will advance more as a rider because the horse is better built for the sport.
If you cannot swing it financially DON’T do it. But if you’re in fair financial shape with a steady job, drive an older used car for a few more years, skip the cruise or trip to Mexico, keep a smaller apartment for a few more years and buy a nice horse.
The other option!!!
Ride a schoolie for a year or two and don’t show to save money for a better quality prospect.
You are right. And that is what was so appalling about Sydnor’s article in DT. Sydnor was sitting in judgment of other people’s goals and financial decisions. She was implying, if not stating outright, that you need to do whatever it takes to buy a $20,000 to $50,000 horse if you want bother to ride dressage. Very discouraging—like “you and your horse suck and you may as well do something else if you do not buy something better.”
Sydnor’s statements would be less offensive if she said that people will probably not make it to the top levels of competitive dressage if they do not spend at least that much money. I absolutely agree. But very, very few people make it to those levels anyway, no matter what they spend!
I think it was a mistake for DT to print the article because there are very few people who need to take out loans to buy a horse that costs that much money to enjoy the sport of dressage. I am sure that it was off putting and disheartening, if not insulting, to the majority of their average readers with average incomes who can afford average horses. :no: Not a good way to promote or to grow our sport.
I don’t think Sydnor was suggesting any such thing, she is not like that and she is not so naive or simpleminded or stupid as any of that. I think you’re taking what she said and twisting it all out of proportion.
The mistake with the ‘now a psg’ horse example is that the person has to have the skill and ability to get the horse to that level. Very few people do.
What is a REAL mistake is for a magazine to so sanitize and pablum-ize and so scrub every article until they say NOTHING AT ALL, rather than have SOMEONE potentially misinterpret, twist it and pick at it. To get articles so that they don’t EVER challenge anyone or make them think, or EVEr introduce them to a new idea, or EVER make them think at all or GOD FORBID, ever suggest ANYTHING someone doesn’t 100% find comfy and cozy and apply exactly to them. Sounds like that is EXACTLY what you all want!
In the end, its the rider who is going to have to pay off that debt. And if it means for a horse or a car, who cares? In the end, you still owe money.
I’ve thought about it in the past-even taking out a student loan. But in the end, I realized that my whole life will probably be debt anyways, might as well not start that way with the horses 
But I wouldn’t think less of a person for going into more debt to buy a horse, unless they were so far in debt that they couldn’t pay basic necessities.
honestly, i am just stunned that everyone on here who is codemning borrowing money for horses does not carry ANY credit card debt whatsoever. kudos to you! you are probably in the very small minority in the US that does not. i just found that the average credit card debt for all households is $8,400. i guess i would feel better about having $8,400 dollars worth of horse charged to my card than $8,400 worth of pizza hut, circuit city, macy’s and sephora!
Honestly, I am with vandenbrink and kkj on this one. I think they have expressed it really well. And I don’t think it is just dressage and that it is guilty of being so elitist. What do you think good reining prospects sell for?
Sometimes it makes for sense to spend the money. Sometimes. But don’t be stupid about it.
Spending thousands to slog away with a stocky downhill built horse who tries his heart out for you but is built to do something else makes no financial sense to me either (please, please don’t think I am slamming a particular breed…I truly am not…I don’t care about breed, just aptitude…)
No, SLC2, you and others stating that she means this is to be competitive at the top level of the sport are not reading the article. That is not what the article says.
I will put the quote in again:
“Certainly, it isn’t all about competition. You might not have any ambitions to win classes at shows with your horse.”
We all know it costs a fortune to compete at the top of the sport. You will progress faster on a better horse. Most of the time, a horse with better gaits, conformation, and training will cost more, say in the neighborhood of $20k - $50k. If she’d left it at that I’d have no problem with the article. But to have a judge saying that a horse isn’t competitve (she doesn’t specify what level) and furthermore, that it isn’t even worth riding if it doesn’t cost $20k or more, is sickening.
I have no problem with people buying expensive horses- it’s their money. I have no problem with wanting to ride dressage on a horse that has an easier tiime of it- that’s why I wanted and bought a warmblood. I do have a problem with a judge telling everyone to buy one and telling them they will not be good riders because they don’t have a nice horse (where nice horse is defined as costing $20k - $50k), and operating under a mistaken assumption that it’s ok because everyone drives expensive cars and so they really can afford it.
The reason people are saying eventing is better and will probably always be better, is because 2 out of 3 phases are objective vs. subjective. The horse clears the fences in a certain amount of time or he doesn’t. There’s no “Oh, but this one is PRETTIER so he wins.” A friend of mine stated that all subjective sports ought to be removed from the olympics and I’m starting to think he was right, because unless there’s an objective goal of go higher, go faster, or go farther, anything else can (and probably will) become a factor. Greed, politics, etc.
[QUOTE=swgarasu;2881249]
But to have a judge saying that a horse isn’t competitve (she doesn’t specify what level) and furthermore, that it isn’t even worth riding if it doesn’t cost $20k or more, is sickening. [/QUOTE]
i don’t have the magazine myself, so haven’t read the article. but if you are going to correct us on what the article actually SAYS and MEANS, then please post the quote from the actual article where she says that, “a horse isn’t even worth riding if it doesn’t cost $20K or more.” thanks!
[QUOTE=class;2881266]
i don’t have the magazine myself, so haven’t read the article. but if you are going to correct us on what the article actually SAYS and MEANS, then please post the quote from the actual article where she says that, “a horse isn’t even worth riding if it doesn’t cost $20K or more.” thanks![/QUOTE]
Try reading the article then.
I don’t have it here to type up the entire thing, but at least I read it before commenting on it.
.
[QUOTE=Mozart;2881228]
Honestly, I am with vandenbrink and kkj on this one. I think they have expressed it really well. And I don’t think it is just dressage and that it is guilty of being so elitist. What do you think good reining prospects sell for?
Sometimes it makes for sense to spend the money. Sometimes. But don’t be stupid about it.
Spending thousands to slog away with a stocky downhill built horse who tries his heart out for you but is built to do something else makes no financial sense to me either (please, please don’t think I am slamming a particular breed…I truly am not…I don’t care about breed, just aptitude…)[/QUOTE]
My question is why cant you buy an uphill, less stocky, better moving horse for 7500.00? Are all uphill sporthorse types 20k or more??
[QUOTE=swgarasu;2881288]
Try reading the article then.
I don’t have it here to type up the entire thing, but at least I read it before commenting on it.[/QUOTE]
how were you quoting from it and telling us what the author really meant just 10 minutes ago then?
[QUOTE=class;2881338]
how were you quoting from it and telling us what the author really meant just 10 minutes ago then?[/QUOTE]
No, the quote was from the other day, when I had the magazine in front of me and was typing the quotes word for word. But you would know the quotes were from the article if you actually read it.
well swgarasu, i can’t afford the magazine because i am paying off my horse! duh!
also, i am not commenting on what the author actually said and what she actually meant, like you are. i am commenting on my own experience and opinions. you are the one who is telling us exactly what the author said and meant, so i would expect you to have the back up on your “facts.”
maybe someone else who has the magazine can tell me where in the article sydnor says, “a horse isn’t even worth riding if it doesn’t cost $20k or more” as you claim?
[QUOTE=fargaloo;2880411]
Instead of happily going to schooling shows, she is paying through the nose to watch her trainer ride her fancy horse at rated shows. She has unwittingly become the underwriter of her trainer’s aspirations, not her own. [/QUOTE]
Trust me, this unhappy scenario can happen to anyone regardless of whether or not the trainer hand picked the horse. You run this risk ANYTIME a nice horse goes into training with an unscrupulous trainer.
Case in point: Woman imports very fancy 3 year old. Has trainer work the horse. However, at some point in time the youngster becomes trained enough for the woman to ride the horse. Trainer does NOT want to give up the pleasure of being paid to ride a nice horse, so woman has to give notice that she is leaving the trainer’s barn before trainer allows her to ride her horse.
Same thing happened to me. 
Had back troubles, put horse into training for a few months, ask for lessons and am told only one lesson a week is allowed. Nice. Propose riding horse twice a week, trainer riding the other 2 days and then riding a 3rd time on lesson day. Nope. Only allowed to ride in a lesson once a week!
Of course a trainer is going to encourage that their clients buy the nicest (read expensive) horse they can find. They get a bigger commission, and hopefully the expensive horse will be better trained, easier to ride and thus able for the ammie to show right away, thus adding again to the trainer’s bottom line. If not, they can always show the horse for the client and still collect the added revenue.
From the trainer’s perspective it’s a win-win situation.
[QUOTE=class;2881112]
honestly, i am just stunned that everyone on here who is codemning borrowing money for horses does not carry ANY credit card debt whatsoever. kudos to you! you are probably in the very small minority in the US that does not. i just found that the average credit card debt for all households is $8,400. i guess i would feel better about having $8,400 dollars worth of horse charged to my card than $8,400 worth of pizza hut, circuit city, macy’s and sephora![/QUOTE]
There is a huge difference between letting your credit card spending get out of hand with $20 to Pizza Hut here and $50 to Macy’s there, and putting yourself $20,000-50,000 into debt at one blow for a horse. Ed. to add - not in the ultimate outcome, perhaps, but in the mental hardiness required to make that leap. I nearly pass out when I buy a car, and the entire dealership comes over to watch the shaking nervous wreck sign the papers enslaving her to a finance company for 4-5 years. That’s for a $14,000 car, btw 
And that’s not even mentioning the glibness of talking about credit card debt like it’s all spoiled middle-class families splurging at Starbucks and teenaged girls trolling the mall. A lot of people are in credit card debt because of a single crisis - a hospitalization, a huge car repair, soaring bills for an unusually hot summer or cold winter - and they were suddenly in the hole for $1,000+ and could never get back out between interest and the fact that repaying the credit card is hampering their ability to pay other bills.
