Go into debt for a horse???

[petitefilly]

[QUOTE=Mozart;2878905]
I think people’s goals, abilities and financial situations are too different to generalize. Would it make sense for ME to go into debt for a horse? None whatsoever.

Would it make sense for a talented young adult, who wants to make a career out of horses to take a risk on an expensive and talented young horse. Maybe. I would not automatically rule it out.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. For years I rode the horses that came to me. IE: cheap ones. I bred a few better ones, loved them. I then decided after fifty to buy a good horse. I did, and it was the best decision I ever made. Did I need him? No. I wanted him. The only thing I can say is I now have the money to buy things I want without worrying about the check. That takes time in your lifetime to attain. What you want and what you need are two entirely different things. If you NEED a horse to go up the ranks, or if you are an older rider who has done her/his time on the average horse, maybe it is time to “just do it”.

Debt is the hard factor here. Everyone has to do what their own pocket book will dictate. What I think the article is saying is that every horse is not going to be competitive in the “big ranks” and to go up with more ease you need a horse with more natural ability and talent to succeed. Usually, 9 out of 10 times this animal will cost more, and will stress your $$$ limits, so in the end if you need to do this you will HAVE to spend more money on a horse of quality. I do not think the article said in black and white that you MUST do this, it suggested that it would be easier with a horse of quality. more money

The young person who is trying to “make it” will have to go into a loan of some type, or find Daddy Warbucks to support this theory. Let’s face it, how many times have you seen this happen? I’ve seen it a zillion times over, and it happens more times than you can imagine.

I bet we could start a thread labeled :I went into debt, so now the problem is_____!

Is that wrong? Frankly it does not matter if YOU wanted it!

[pinecone]

duplicate

[Sandy_M]

the big ranks…

See, that’s what makes the article/editorial so “in your face” and arrogant. It doesn’t specify that it’s addressing someone aiming for the big ranks. It seems to be saying that ANYONE who wants to “do dressage” seriously MUST have an expensive horse, and if they aren’t willing to do the necessary to get one, they AREN’T serious. The subtext would seem to be that if you can’t pay for a fancy horse (or search for a less expensive but talented one for a looooong time until you find that one in a million), do what you can with the one you have and don’t complain. THAT I can agree with to a degree: But not to the degree where badly trained/ridden fancy movers beat well-trained/well ridden average to good movers.

Additionally, let US be serious: Those who are aiming for the big ranks ALREADY KNOW THIS. I don’t see Debbie McDonald or Steffan peters shopping for their next GP horse among Appaloosas, dearly as I love that breed. Thus the article was redundant and unnecessary for those who truly aspire to the higher levels, and insulting to those who do not.

Remember the big hoo-hah over the Lisa Wilcox critique of the little downhill Paint? That rider was simply seeking to improve the horse she had, not to compete at FEI levels. But people were rightfully upset that Ms. Wilcox’s primary advice seem to be “get another more suitable horse.” Same thing here - only now were talking how much $$$$ one should spend in order to “do dressage.” shrug

[pinecone]

Having said all that, there are plenty of nice horses with three decent gaits and with the mentality to do mid and even upper level dressage that are available. Check with smaller breeders, look at alternative breed horses (Morgans, Tbreds, Friesian crosses, AWS, Paints, etc). Spend more time looking at the less obvious horses - and learn to spot three good gaits.

Somehow this thread goes hand and glove with the one about qualifying scores for third level…

There used to be a time when “any” horse could move up the levels successfully with a skilled rider. Not any more. This new thinking of judging everything starting with the gaits is partly to blame. If you’ve got a 6 mover, you are going to be struggling to be competitive from the minute you enter the arena, whereas you’ve got a lot more margin for error if you’re on an 8 mover.

Dressage is not just about training any more. (Sad, but true.) It has reached the point where it is almost a disservice to people to try to maintain the fantasy that “any horse can be successful if you work hard enough”. Perpetuating this Big Lie just leads to frustration and disappointment.

It’s also easier to train a horse designed for this job (there is a saying about teaching a pig to sing which would be perfect here), and easier to ride a horse already trained for this job. Both of those come at a price.

Usually when the non traditional horses do well it’s because they are exceptions to their breed, or they’ve been paired with a really talented rider who just happened not to be able to afford anything better, or had some special reason for choosing to be involved with that breed.

(I also wouldn’t lump TBs, Friesian crosses, or American Warmbloods in with Morgans, QH’s, or Paints, fwiw;))

This sport is getting more elitist by the minute, and to be successful you really need a nice horse, it’s not enough any more just to be a good rider (and most people aren’t really good riders anyhow, and could benefit even more from the brownie points a fancier horse will get them.) So although I have not read the article, I can imagine what the author was getting at.

[see_u_at_x]

The Article - someone asked for it, so here it is:

Own a Better Horse
Don’t waste time. Ride the best quality horse you can afford.
By Cindy Sydnor

I relish the opportunity to say that the quality of the horse one spends time with should be worthwhile. Too many of us American s have spent too much time improving horses that are not really designed to do upper-level dressage. I never had the money to buy expensive horse s but, if I had to do it again, I would not spend so much time with horses whose conformation doesn’t really allow them to move the way the books say. If you’re going to spend the time, you might as well spend it with the best quality horse you can find and afford, because you’ll never get the time back.

I’m not saying that I regret having worked with any of the horses I’ve ridden. Every horse teaches you something, there’s no question. But in the world of competition, the best horse wins (not that that’s all there is by any means). Sometimes, the best rider is on an inferior horse and doesn’t win. She doesn’t understand why, because she has watched fancier or better quality horses being ridden less well, and she still loses to them. It begs the question : “Isn’t it all about the training?” Well, yes, it is about the training, but it’s also all about the gaits, the case of movement and how coordinated, balanced and athletic and dancer-like the horse is. These are the things good dressage horses are bred for.

Instead of hitting your head against this fact, saying to yourself, “Surely they’ll recognize the better quality of training and riding of my horse,” you’ll have to accept the fact that some breeds just don’t usually move as well as a good warmblood for dressage competition. The only exceptions are for the halt, rein-back and turns on the haunches. In these movements, theoretically, any horse could get a 10. But how are you going to compete against a horse that has a beautiful, natural trot extension with a horse who has learned to lengthen as well as he can but still can’t hold a candle to the other horse?

Certainly, it isn’t all about competition. You might not have any ambition s to win classes at shows with your horse. But still, when riding a better quality horse, you actually do become a better rider. Whereas, riding an inferior quality horse, even though you do become somewhat skillful by making up for some of his shortcomings, you cannot create the gaits of a good mover.

You might think that I’m prejudiced and don’t like other breeds, but that’s not true. I love all horses and have happily ridden most breeds. But they usually don 't have the conformation that allows them to move like a well-bred dressage horse. That’s why the Europeans have been breeding the way they have for hundreds of years. They said, “You know, I want a horse with a better walk. I want a horse whose neck comes up out of the withers. I don’t want a horse whose neck comes out from between his knees.”

You might say, “Look I only have $5,000, and this horse is the best I could get.” Here’s my answer to that:

1. Look around a little longer.

2. Take out a loan. People take out loans for cars. Most people drive cars costing $25,000 to $30,000. Nobody thinks anything of that. My advice is to drive a cheaper car and own a better horse. You can get a very good horse for between $20,000 and $50,000.

3. When going on a horse-buying trip, look for a horse with really good conformation, gaits, temperament and rideability. Don’t settle for the horse that will bite you. Don’t settle for the horse without over-stride at the walk, even when you walk him freely in a halter.

4. After you’ve narrowed down your choices for a new horse, get good professional advice. Find someone who has had many hours of experience training and observing sport horses. Remember, four eyes are better than two.

5. Get the horse vetted. Only the best horse you can find is good enough.

Cindy Sydnor is a U.S. Dressage Federation (USDF) “R” judge, a USDF certification examiner and a popular clinician. After training seven years in Europe and Brazil, shewas long-listed for the 1976 Olympic Team. Together with her husband, Charles, and daughter, Eliza, she operates Braebum Farm in Snow Camp, North Carolina. Her Website is braebumfarms.com. She is a frequent contributor to Dressage Today.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

I wonder whether Braeburn farms will do financing? Or maybe take mastercard or visa?

You bet they will!

Ka-ching.

[Lambie_Boat]

so funny. I went into serious debt to take lessons with Cindy Sydnor’s ex-husband

I’m sure that education would have gone even further had I been working with a horse more suited to dressage, but I had to choose between the horse or the lessons! Or if I was younger, lighter, richer, more athletic, brighter (fill in the blank). I’m at an age now where “it’s now or never” to really learn how to ride and train a horse, and that’s the facts. It’s the sad truth, but Cindy is keeping it real in that article. Don’t blame the messenger.

[NOMIOMI1]

.

Hmm this article doesnt ring true to some of what the posts are saying. I see someone saying “Hey its ok to spend more if you want to be competative”. In the begining of her article she says UPPER LEVEL not LOWER LEVER pshewwwww. My horse was 6k and my trainers says he should have no problem going to 3rd and after we start tempis we’ll see. I guess Im out of the fire. I better call my bank and tell them I dont need that 50k loan. Thanks for posting the actual document.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

:rolleyes:

@NOMIOMI1;2881633

Hmm this article doesnt ring true to some of what the posts are saying. I see someone saying “Hey its ok to spend more if you want to be competative”. In the begining of her article she says UPPER LEVEL not LOWER LEVER pshewwwww. My horse was 6k and my trainers says he should have no problem going to 3rd and after we start tempis we’ll see. I guess Im out of the fire. I better call my bank and tell them I dont need that 50k loan. Thanks for posting the actual document.

This is an exact quote from the article cited above:

“Certainly, it isn’t all about competition. You might not have any ambitions to win classes at shows with your horse. But still, when riding a better quality horse, you actually do become a better rider. Whereas, riding an inferior quality horse, even though you do become somewhat skillful by making up for some of his shortcomings, you cannot create the gaits of a good mover.”

So Cindy’s saying-- “Oh, but you will never be as good a rider if you ride cheaper horses!!! You can’t be as good a rider if you don’t have expensive gaits!!”

Puh-leeze!:rolleyes:

:lol::lol::lol:

[dkcbr]

>>>>Cindy is keeping it real in that article. Don’t blame the messenger.

BINGO!

Also would like to say: I am thankful for the opportunity to read the article, and I have no quarrel with any of it. It’s not utopia out there, folks, and if you aspire to do well at the upper levels (upper, not third/fourth), you probably do need to choose to pay “more” in order to get the gait quality needed to virtually ensure success.

[see_u_at_x]

After reading this, I can only think that, gee, it was a good thing that Sydnor wasn’t around Hilda Gurney when Hilda bought Keen for a mere $1,000. I mean, really, Keen was just a dumpy TB of only average lineage, right? :rolleyes:

I’d be interested to know how this woman scores horses in the dressage arena who are NOT warmbloods. And maybe I’m wrong, but isn’t it easier to get a car loan than it would be to get a loan for something like a horse?

[slc2]

So now Sydnor is an unethical judge?

The plot definitely thickens.

[NOMIOMI1]

.

See u at x

Yes it is harder to get a good apr on a personal loan if they wont let you use the horse as collateral or if you dont have any other kind of collateral.

What are we talking 15% or so for personal loans these days!!

[class]

@see u at x;2881727

After reading this, I can only think that, gee, it was a good thing that Sydnor wasn’t around Hilda Gurney when Hilda bought Keen for a mere $1,000. I mean, really, Keen was just a dumpy TB of only average lineage, right? :rolleyes:

yes, one person and one horse totally disproves the advice for everyone else out there. you will probably make it to grand prix on your $1,000 horse just like hilda did. you probably won’t burn him out and top out at 2nd level like the 9 million other folks who have tried it.

i am left wondering why people spend all that money buying race cars with big engines when herbie the love bug was able to win races himself!

[swgarasu]

[QUOTE=dkcbr;2881689]
>>>>Cindy is keeping it real in that article. Don’t blame the messenger.

BINGO!

Also would like to say: I am thankful for the opportunity to read the article, and I have no quarrel with any of it. It’s not utopia out there, folks, and if you aspire to do well at the upper levels (upper, not third/fourth), you probably do need to choose to pay “more” in order to get the gait quality needed to virtually ensure success.[/QUOTE]

Um, I paid for the oppertunity to read that article. Forgive me if I’m not falling all over myself with appreciation. Maybe if it told me something useful instead of just marginalizing me, I would feel a bit more thankful.

[Halfbroke]

I tend to think its the “American Way” to be against this mentality of buying your way up (not that buying a better horse will automatically get you better scores…) but that Americans have a strong sense in them that if they work hard they get somewhere… isn’t that the american dream, to work your way up the ladder of sucess. I kind of think thats part of the reason why this article comes off as offensive… it is discounting the “anyone can make it” mentality. I know I think like that… I think I am realistic about my horses and their abilities, but have big dreams for both of them, even if those dreams arn’t realized. I also know that MANY people (including a lot of people on here) will not share the same dream for my horses because they see them as sub par. It makes me mad that this article states that you have to buy a fancy horse to win, but unfortunatly I think that is the reality these days… so whoever said don’t shoot the messenger is right…!

To each his own about financing a horse. I can say that financing a horse has never crossed my mind, because my horses are a luxury to me, and I think it is irresponsible to finance a luxury…

My concern comes into how a horse is financed. More then likely someone will take a equity line of credit on their home, or pull out of their retirement savings. Both seem like bad ideas to me. If someone takes a line of credit on their house, depending upon the circumstances, could be paying a interest only variable rate loan on that. So, they are not paying off any principle on their loan, with their interest rates INCREASING monthly, on a DEPRECIATING asset (and horses do depreciate, under tax law you can depreciate them, and they do lose their value over time, although it is not as cut and dry as say depreciating machinary)… so you are technically paying more money as time passes for a asset that is worth less as time passes. If that family ever got into trouble and needed to sell their house, they very well may be carrying a bigger mortgage then what the house sells for… so they have to PAY money to sell their house and hence forclosure happens… Just sounds like a unsound financial decision to me. And does this affect others… absolutly!!

The subprime housing market is a very small part of the overall real estate market… maybe 6%, and look what that small part of the market did to the overall finacial market?!? Banks wrote off billions of dollars in losses, the stock market has been crap these last few months, the fed has been undertaking some very agressive rate cuts, and that has happened all in the U.S. this credit crunch has also affected international markets (because the market is international… there really isn’t a u.s. market, a asian market… its all just pretty much one market!) What does that do to your retirment account… well it signicantly lowers the value… so you may have to work an extra 5 years now because you don’t have enough money to retire now…

Now lets talk about pulling money out of your IRA. First of all, I am not all that well versed in IRA’s but I do know that it has some tax sheltering properties… if you take money out of it, you have to pay taxes on it which can sometimes defeat the purpose of taking out of it. But anyways, lets assume that when you are 40 years old you take out $20,000 out of your retirment account. This means you are not earning any interest on that $20,000. Assuming you pay this back over a 4 year period (that would mean putting $416 extra back into your retirment account monthly… which I think is a generous assumption… do any of you have an extra $420 lying around each month) you have just given up around $9700 in interest earned over that 4 year period assuming you are earning 10% a year on your account (which is a safe assumption, that is what large cap stocks have earned historically) also assume that interest accrues monthly.

So $9700 sounds like a fair amount… Now lets figure out what that $9700 would have earned over the next 20 years in interest (assuming you retire at around 64 years old). If you still assume you earn 10% a year and your interest compounds monthly, you have just given up $71,720 in INTEREST earned when you retire :eek:
If you take into account that if you paid back your $416 a month, you would only earn around $30,000 in interest over that same 20 year period. So you just gave up $40,000
To be fair, my “model” didn’t take into account inflation, so the purchasing power ofthe dollar would erode that $71,000, but you get the picture right?!?

Does that sound like a “sound finacial decsion?!?”

[fargaloo]

ok, I see I was getting my shorts in a knot about nothing…

Nothing really radical in that article after all – none of this is news. And she did say “buy the best horse you can afford.” I guess it means you have 2 options: A) If you want to be a better dressage rider and more competitive, follow her advice; B) if you are learning dressage simply to have the best riding relationship you can have with your beloved arawalkaloosa, ignore her advice. I just feel badly when riders who could be perfectly happy with option B) are pressured into taking option A), particularly if that means remortgaging the house. (BTW, if you are going to whine about why your beloved arawalkaloosa keeps losing to fancy warmbloods, you need to give your head a shake.)

[NOMIOMI1]

.

Again we are talking upper level right. It makes sense to spend some money for a horse that is or will be above 4th.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@NOMIOMI1;2881846

Again we are talking upper level right. It makes sense to spend some money for a horse that is or will be above 4th.

Reread the article. She is not restricting it to a particular level or even to people who ride competitively. :no:

[canticle]

Own a Better Horse
Don’t waste time. Ride the best quality horse you can afford.
By Cindy Sydnor

I relish the opportunity to say that the quality of the horse one spends time with should be worthwhile. Too many of us American s have spent too much time improving horses that are not really designed to do upper-level dressage. I never had the money to buy expensive horse s but, if I had to do it again, I would not spend so much time with horses whose conformation doesn’t really allow them to move the way the books say. If you’re going to spend the time, you might as well spend it with the best quality horse you can find and afford, because you’ll never get the time back.

How is the quality of the time one has spent with one’s horse in any way based on the horse’s propensity for upper-level dressage? Some of my best moments with my horses have been while grooming and fussing over them. Could Ms. Sydnor please tell me how spending more money could have given me better memories?

I’m not saying that I regret having worked with any of the horses I’ve ridden. Every horse teaches you something, there’s no question. But in the world of competition, the best horse wins (not that that’s all there is by any means). Sometimes, the best rider is on an inferior horse and doesn’t win. She doesn’t understand why, because she has watched fancier or better quality horses being ridden less well, and she still loses to them. It begs the question : “Isn’t it all about the training?” Well, yes, it is about the training, but it’s also all about the gaits, the case of movement and how coordinated, balanced and athletic and dancer-like the horse is. These are the things good dressage horses are bred for.
All horses are dressage horses, Ms. Sydnor. :sigh: But you are right, it isn’t all about the training. It’s also about the grooming, about the trail-riding, about the bonding, about listening to your horse eat, about holding his head in your arms. THAT is what is about! :mad:

Instead of hitting your head against this fact, saying to yourself, “Surely they’ll recognize the better quality of training and riding of my horse,” you’ll have to accept the fact that some breeds just don’t usually move as well as a good warmblood for dressage competition. The only exceptions are for the halt, rein-back and turns on the haunches. In these movements, theoretically, any horse could get a 10. But how are you going to compete against a horse that has a beautiful, natural trot extension with a horse who has learned to lengthen as well as he can but still can’t hold a candle to the other horse?
Ah the fallacy that the warmblood is a better mover than the Arabian, or the Saddlebred is a better mover than the TB. There is nothing special in any one breed that makes their gaits BETTER. It’s just that some people have grown accustomed to certain types of horses and now prefer that type. But never mistake your preference for correctness!

Certainly, it isn’t all about competition. You might not have any ambition s to win classes at shows with your horse. But still, when riding a better quality horse, you actually do become a better rider. Whereas, riding an inferior quality horse, even though you do become somewhat skillful by making up for some of his shortcomings, you cannot create the gaits of a good mover.
Now rider skill depends on the type of horse you ride? I can’t believe I’m reading this… :no: Maybe Ms. Sydnor is just trying to scare people into spending their money on the type of horse she is selling, because otherwise we as riders won’t be as “skillful”? Is she that desperate to drum up business?

You might think that I’m prejudiced and don’t like other breeds, but that’s not true. I love all horses and have happily ridden most breeds. But they usually don 't have the conformation that allows them to move like a well-bred dressage horse. That’s why the Europeans have been breeding the way they have for hundreds of years. They said, “You know, I want a horse with a better walk. I want a horse whose neck comes up out of the withers. I don’t want a horse whose neck comes out from between his knees.”
Europeans have been breeding modern WBs for less than 50 years; they are one of the youngest breeds in terms of type. Maybe the type will survive like Arabians, Lipizzans, or even Morgans. But only time will tell. Right now it is a nascent breed.

Ms. Sydnor might “like” or even “love” other breeds, but it is obvious that she does not respect other breeds. Huge difference.

Cindy Sydnor is a U.S. Dressage Federation (USDF) “R” judge, a USDF certification examiner and a popular clinician. After training seven years in Europe and Brazil, shewas long-listed for the 1976 Olympic Team. Together with her husband, Charles, and daughter, Eliza, she operates Braebum Farm in Snow Camp, North Carolina. Her Website is braebumfarms.com. She is a frequent contributor to Dressage Today.
I can’t believe this poor excuse for a horsewoman was able to become a judge. Having spent so much time in her own little bubble, has she become blind to the true beauty of the horse? Is she so far removed from true dressage that now she is trying to scare others away from it as well?