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Go into debt for a horse???

Dressage
#141

After reading the article, I agree with most of it. She is laying it as it is, honestly calling what it takes to be competitive in the current dressage show ring. Yes, gaits are a large part of every score and especially walk can bring the scores really down. Yes, no amount of correct training will make a horse competitive if it doesn’t have a natural talent for dressage. Yes, there are limits for horses that are not built for dressage and some flaws turn in to soundness issues latter. Horses have to be gymnasts for competitive dressage. I agree with all of that. Yes, it’s difficult to find an under saddle horse for less than 15K that doesn’t have conformational issues, soundness issues or mental issues and that can perform as a gymnast on FEI levels.

However, I strongly disagree with this paragraph:

  1. Take out a loan. People take out loans for cars. Most people drive cars costing $25,000 to $30,000. Nobody thinks anything of that. My advice is to drive a cheaper car and own a better horse. You can get a very good horse for between $20,000 and $50,000.

I am against taking a loan for a living creature. I think this is a very irresponsible advice. If everything will go perfect - yes that horse can turn out to be a good investment and it can bring a lot of satisfaction to the in-debt owner. But if one of the many things will go wrong: lameness, colic, loss of job for owner, sickness of owner, addition to the family, any other financial hardship - what will happen when those horse owners will default on their financed horse? Who will help them to pay for their debt for the horse and for keeping the horse? Does she give a reasonable answer what to do in this situation? No, she doesn’t, she just hopes for the best outcome. Please ask yourself how often in YOUR life you do have “perfect” outcomes?

My second problem with her advice is about “getting the best horse that you can afford” - I might decide not to buy a 3 thousand square foot house, because with this kind of house I will need to hire help to keep up with chores and lots of money to furnish it as well. I might decide not to buy a Porsche, b/c when I drive to San Francisco other drivers scrape your car while parking on daily bases. Initial investment is only a part of the expenses. Plus house, horse, cars (if we are comparing them) all have to be functional for your particular purposes - not just the best that your money can buy. So, I will not buy a $50K horse - my horse has to be able to take me for a trail ride and be able to live like a horse. She thinks that showing dressage is the only real goal that we can have - wrong! Being a horse owner is not only about getting blue ribbons and seeing your name in HOY awards. Being a horse owner is about enjoying your horse and DAILY things that you do with your horse. For many, many AAs winning is really not an issue or even a goal.

Third issue that her advice is putting us in a rat race and “Keeping up with the Joneses" race. Because even $30K horse can have a better gaits and be even more talented for dressage, so how about $50K horse or $100K horse or heck, how about $500K horse? When is it enough? How deep we should go in to debt?

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;2882420]
I say it’s worth borrowing for it or saving a year or two for it if you are in a good financial position.
A good dressage prospect is a worthwhile investment. They can be insured and will increase in value with more training and show experience.[/QUOTE]
And what happens if these dressage prospect injuries a tendon has a year off and still can not continue as dressage horse? He is literally given away - with owner still taking a loss on many things.

#142

Lord I hope the Sydnors don’t see this thread because it is getting damned embarrassing. :lol:

#143

Lord I hope the Sydnors don’t see this thread because it is getting damned embarrassing.

Thanks for getting her name correct, SLC. By now, I suspect she has been notified of the on-line dicussions. The voices on these two popular discussion forums in no way represent the majority of the dressage community. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that the majority of readers of DT might share the opinions of the posters on these boards.

So many different opinions come from the various definitions of what ‘dressage’ is. Those that still hang on to the concept that it means ‘training’ and improving the horse, will continue to buy unsuitable for the sport horses and spent the rest of their riding life basically doing simple ‘flat work’ claiming they are ‘doing dressage’.

Whether you show or not, dressage to some of us is achieving collection at the highest level of the sport. Actually, I think that was the goal of the ODG’s that so many of you admire.

From what I read on these boards, many of you do not even know who Ms. Sydnor is and her background. This is a woman that has more than paid her dues in the sport. She is someone that I admire. It’s a shame that everytime any professional writes anything in an article, the crows have to swarm and pick it apart so they can criticize it and it’s mostly because they know what they are reading is true.

ps: SLC, your posts on this thread are right-on.

#144

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;2883056]
So many different opinions come from the various definitions of what ‘dressage’ is. Those that still hang on to the concept that it means ‘training’ and improving the horse, will continue to buy unsuitable for the sport horses and spent the rest of their riding life basically doing simple ‘flat work’ claiming they are ‘doing dressage’.

Whether you show or not, dressage to some of us is achieving collection at the highest level of the sport. Actually, I think that was the goal of the ODG’s that so many of you admire.[/QUOTE]
I guess we’ll never know which definition is “real dressage,” will we? :sigh:

Each side feels pretty confident that they have the ultimate answers to these questions. I think Ms. Sydnor’s problem is that she is so out of touch with the majority of riders. Most people do not hold such an exclusive outlook on dressage. By taking such an extreme stance, DT risks alienating many of their subscribers.

#145

Finance a dressage horse

I really don’t have a problem with the article. It’s a personal choice and it all depends on your priorities and your personal financial situation.
If you can get approved for a 30k personal loan to buy a horse, chances are you can afford the payments, insurance and upkeep for the horse.

My thoughts are that this article is geared toward people who are boarding and training with professionals and probably show at recognized shows and have aspirations to show and progress. I don’t know if it’s the same in all of your areas, but just make a visit to one of the bigger recognized shows and look around. The expensive rigs, saddles, grooms, tack stalls, trainers, coaches…
this is a pretty expensive sport and most of these competitors are not making anything close to the country’s average salary. Trish

#146

Go into debt for a horse

If showing dressage and learning dressage is important to you, then I think you do need to buy the best horse you can buy. Showing and lessons are both very expensive, it doesn’t make sense to invest your time or money on a limited horse. That is like buying a VW bug and taking to a race track to race sports cars. Why would you spend you money to do that? I see lots of people spend money on their trucks and trailers and barns and then have a $1,000.00 horse!

#147

[QUOTE=onzbit;2883122]
If showing dressage and learning dressage is important to you, then I think you do need to buy the best horse you can buy. Showing and lessons are both very expensive, it doesn’t make sense to invest your time or money on a limited horse. That is like buying a VW bug and taking to a race track to race sports cars. Why would you spend you money to do that? I see lots of people spend money on their trucks and trailers and barns and then have a $1,000.00 horse![/QUOTE]
Excellent question. Yet so many people are happy with their VW bugs. Whether it be normal driving or tuning them and taking them to the track, the cars sell well and have a loyal following. Are all of the owners and drivers wrong? Should all of those people sell their VWs and buy Ferraris?

How can they be wasting their time if they are happy and having a good time? :confused:

#148

The people who seem to favor Sydnor’s point of view keep reading the article as if she limited her comments to competitive dressage. If it was so limited, the article might be seen as a refreshing, honest take on competitive dressage today. But apologists are twisting the article, because she did not limit her comments to people who want to do FEI or even to those who want to do any showing at all.

As another poster pointed out, one key thing that was missing in the article was that she said nothing about a person buying the most SUITABLE or appropriate horse that they can afford. Since most average european WBs that are in the $25k to $35k range are 3 and 4 year olds, I ask you, how many riders are these young horses appropriate for? On the other end of the price range, for most beginning and intermediate riders, a crappy moving, aged, PSG level WB will have buttons that the rider will never even be able to find, let alone push. All this for about $50k.

I can tell you that if Ms. Sydnor was a real judge in a real court, she would be in trouble for making biased statements that prejudge competitors before they enter the ring. She also has an obvious conflict of interest as a seller of horses.

Finally, perhaps recent articles like hers are a last ditch effort to try to keep the market of expensive horses from collapsing. We have all heard that the less expensive horses are being given away due to the economy and specific industry related factors. It is probably just a matter of time before values come down on expensive horses as they run out of wealthy prospective buyers.

#149

It is indeed apparent that many people here have NO earthly idea who Cindy Sydnor is.

I am certain she is fully aware of this thread, as her daughter Eliza does participate on at least one BB; usually if you’re on one BB, you’re on several.

#150

I think many posters here are reading the article in an unnecessarily defensive manner.

I just reread the article and I’ll be darned if I can figure out why so many people are up in arms about it.

Even the subtitle states clearly, “Ride the best quality horse you can afford.” Let me add for emphasis: “you can afford.”

And in her very first paragraph, she is NOT talking about grooming and snuggling, folks - she is talking about the quality of horse you spend training time with should be commensurate with your goals and ambitions. Truly, I don’t see how anyone can argue with that concept.

Then the last sentence of that first paragraph clearly states (again), “you might as well spend it with the best quality horse you can find and afford, because you’ll never get the time back.” She is NOT saying everyone should dump their less-expensive horses and go out and spend megabucks on a new horse just because. She IS saying that horses designed to do upper level dressage and are naturally good movers are a better choice for someone who is aspiring toward upper level dressage.

#151

“if Ms. Sydnor was a real judge in a real court,”

:lol:

“Ms. Sydnor’s problem is that she is so out of touch with the majority of riders”

I am now SURE no one writing this nasty garbage knows who Sydnor is, what she’s done, or what she’s like as a person, and I’m VERY sure no one here has the right to sit in such incredibly august judgement of her.

Ms Sydnor is actually one of the LAST people to have any breed prejudices (having spent years and years working with Karl Mikolka and so many non warmbloods) or insist people get horses that aren’t appropriate to their goals.

This whole thing would be funny, if it wasn’t so nasty and personal against Sydnor.

"I think many posters here are reading the article in an unnecessarily defensive manner. "

here, here. Time to get my pillows fluffed and get out the Baileys. I wonder how it tastes with Robitussin?

#152

No, not funny. SAD. :no: It is very clear that horse show “judges” do not need to follow the most basic ethical standards that are imposed on any legal judge or hearing officer in order to ensure integrity and impartiality. Some people seem to think otherwise, so I thought that it was worth pointing out.

The article speaks for itself. It has been posted on this thread. You can either read the words as they are written, or not.

Here is Cindy Sydnor’s bio-
http://www.horsesdaily.com/whoswho/sydnor_cindy/index.html

We know WHO she is. We just don’t AGREE with her. :frowning:

#153

You are correct, I’ve never heard of Ms. Sydnor before this and thus I have no idea who she is. But doesn’t that give my opinions even more weight?

#154

OK I have been lurking on this thread, but this quote just brought me out. What rock have you been living under? Watch the news much?

This economy is spiraling into a recession and possible depression due to reckless lending and a country that is as addicted to credit as many are to crack. And you come up with this gem… :eek:

#155

Eclectic, that seems like an even LESS veiled accusation that she is an unethical judge. The last one could easily be backed out of, ‘oh no, you misinterpreted, i didn’t say that, how could you possibly suggest i said that, that’s YOUR problem’.

THIS is just REALLY over the top. That someone suggests getting an appropriate horse is unethical because you people go ballistic when people bring up reality.

I have seen ENOUGH people abusing unsuited horses, screaming at them, jerking their mouths, screaming at their horses as they ride, ‘I hate you you bi***’!’, I’ve been watching wannabe people for YEARS who buy 100 pairs of expensive breeches, 10 bridles, a dozen expensive saddles, a huge expensive truck, a big rig, go to 300 clinics a year, on this poor animal that can barely stand up, FORCING horses with bad feet and chronic arthritis to go in class after class (just get that chiropractor out and that supplement out and all will be healed!). I am SICK of seeing people take unsuitable horses and try to force them do do work they can’t POSSIBLY stand up to! There’s the other side of that story for ya and it’s not exactly about smelling the roses and going for trail rides on Sparky.

ALL Sydnor is saying is to be realistic, and to get the right tools for the job you want to achieve and to not expect outrageously lofty things of a horse that can’t possibly do it - the idea that suggesting someone take out a loan for a horse is bad - good lord, it may be the LEAST stupid thing they ever take a loan out for in their life! My relatives have bought far stupider things with loans!

#156

I think what Cindy is really saying is that a GOOD RIDER on a GOOD HORSE will score better than a GOOD RIDER on a NOT SO GOOD HORSE and a GOOD RIDER on a GOOD HORSE will be able to advance faster in training than a GOOD RIDER on a NOT SO GOOD HORSE.

Note: “Good” is subjective but I think she’s talking about movement and natural ability in her article.

I have found that I do ride better when my horse goes better. I switched from an excellently trained horse with so-so gaits to a less trained horse with better gaits and I do ride better now - I feel A LOT more (shoulder dropping, inside hind leg not under him, etc). That’s not to say that I didn’t get a lot out of the horse with so-so gaits. Cindy says this in her article too.

About the actual prices. When I was horse shopping those were the prices I saw for the type of horse Cindy is talking about. I was not looking for the type of horse she was talking about. I don’t own the type of horse she’s talking about. Do I wish I did? No because I can reach my goals on the horse I have. But if my goals were different you bet I would want THAT type of horse. Some people do get lucky though.

About taking out a loan. Taking out a loan is different than going into debt. Cindy never says go into debt. I would rather have $10,000 in the bank and take out a $20,000 loan than use the entire $10,000 and have nothing in the bank. If something happens (ie, lose job) I have $10,000 to tide me over until the something resolves. If the loan is attached to my home loan the interest wouldn’t be so bad and the monthly payments low enough to fit into a budget (less Starbucks or dinners out or whatever).

If your desired goals are attainable with what you have than this article is not for you. If you feel that you’ve been struggling to reach your goals than you may want to take a second look at this article. You may need to change your goals or you may need to change your horse or you may need to change something else in your life (ie, move to another trainer).

#157

Really, I don’t think any of us disagree that CS is right if she is addressing highly competitive riders with definite FEI ambitions, amateur or pro. We all know that, like it or not, gaits are assessed in every movement and while training may, in some cases, be rewarded over quality of gaits, it’s a very thin line. We get rightfully upset when badly trained/badly ridden fancy gaits get scored over correctly trained/correctly ridden average to good gaits.

I think the big objection and defensiveness are raised by the “get a loan” comments, the “most people drive a $35K car,” comment. A casual assumption that the average ammy should go into debt to buy that “best horse you can buy” (and with little advice regarding the consideration of suitability). It’s sort of like a economics expert giving a seminar to high level investors, telling them not to try to do something on the cheap. And that would be okay if she had so addressed the editorial, but she did NOT. She specifically comments on people saying they can only afford $5K. While I’m sure there are exceptions, the average person with definite high level ambitions is not limited to $5K horses, unless they consider it a $5K horse because they bred it and that was the cost to get the baby on the ground! It is the average adult ammy, single, or married and returning to riding, etc. who has that “cheap” horse.

Those of us who are driving older, used cars/trucks and doing without a lot of things in order to be able to afford the best horse we CAN buy - and THAT horse costs under 10K, are understandably “defensive” about being both dissed and dismissed! To me, it is particularly interesting because at least it is honest in this respect: It admits that the average ammy has been LIED to for many years: We’ve been told it’s about the gaits and training; we have articles about how any horse can do dressage; recent featured articles on non-traditional breeds - you CAN do it, we are told! Then we have CS editorial: At least CS is honest: IT’S ABOUT THE MONEY AND THE GAITS - and presumably if you have the money and the gaits you can afford the training. So… you folks with the cheap horses… just… move along…nothing to see here. Go to schooling shows or go into debt.

#158

Huh? :confused: Under the Rules of Judicial Conduct in most jurisdictions it is per se unethical for a judge to comment on something that will come before them in the future. They are supposed to judge only based on what they see before them in that particular case- not preconceived notions or biases. Secondly, judges are supposed to recuse themselves from any matter in which they have a conflict of interest. When you have an interest in selling horses, then telling people to take out a loan to buy one is a conflict of interest. Period. It is not, and cannot be, impartial advice.

I don’t see what this has to do with abuse at all… :confused: People who don’t spend $20k plus on horses are abusive? What?

It is a discussion. You disagree with me, so what. Don’t have a heart attack. :eek:

#159

My thoughts on the article are these. In my opinion it’s directed towards people who have FEI/International goals. (That’s just my opinion and I can see how people are taking it differently.) I simply can’t fathom why a well respected judge and trainer like Ms. Sydnor would suggest to someone who rides dressage casually, purely for enjoyment to remortgage the farm and buy a 50K horse.
She also says quite clearly that you should “buy the horse you can afford.” Well, in my case I had less than 10K to work with and after YEARS of searching I found my next FEI prospect (got a helluva deal.) (Oh, and FEI horse #1 cost 12K, go figure, I’m lucky…) If I had not found him, would I have headed out to the bank to attempt to get a 50K personal loan? NO! WHY? Because they would have laughed me out the door. It just doesn’t happen… If you have home equity or similar, maybe. But if you are the average young pro, you are living month to month and have very little that a bank looks upon as being valuable.
I disgaree with the quote that a horse is a “sound investment.” An investment for a rider, yes indeed. An investment that is going to appriciate over the years and make you richer than you are now? Eeesh, not so much. My banker told me that a fully developed horse business is not considered by most banks to be a “sound” investment, and a horse certainly is not.
The last thing I have to say is this. I have been on the re-training and selling end of quite a few very expensive and talented horses whose owners bought them with the dream that a $$$ horse would bring home the blues. When they found that the better horse did not make them a better rider (often, even with years of time with their trainers) these folks became frightened and frustrated. Which is once again why I think that this article was directed towards pro, or extremely talented riders who are seriously looking for world class horses.
Just my opinion…

#160

Better natural gaits (a.k.a. purpose-bred horses) are more likely to train up more easily into correct, supple, elastic, upper level dressage horses.

Train the best horse you can afford for your goals.

Getting a loan to buy a horse that has the natural ability to be more easily trained to upper level dressage is an option. The loan is one option, among others.

Really, it’s so simple and so not an outrage.

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