Goat-folk! CL help? (Caseous lymphadenitis)

[saje]

So one of my girls has a pretty classic looking swelling at the corner of her jaw under her right ear. The Merk article I was directed to here sounds pretty dire, but in relation to animal production not pets.

It sounds a lot like strangles, truthfully, so am I in for a world of hurt if I treat it essentially the same way? That is, let it burst, keep in clean, keep her isolated, and treat w/ abx? And the article mentions recurrences, but I’m not entirely sure if that’s in the same animal or by infection to others.

Anyone have experience with it?

[Epona142]

Okay - first off. Don’t panic. Goats get abscesses all the time. It’s not always CL.

You do not want it to be CL. It’s very zoonotic and spreads to horses as well - pigeon fever.

If you let a CL abscess burst on your property, the bacteria remains there.

Here are some links to get you started - lucky for me, the only cases of CL I’ve had to deal with were necropsies I did for other farms.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/caseouslymphadenitis.html

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl.shtml

http://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/animal-disease-faq/caseous-lymphadenitis

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/circulatory_system/lymphadenitis_and_lymphangitis/caseous_lymphadenitis_of_sheep_and_goats.html

[allisontatman]

Agree with above, can affect multiple other species and you do not want it to pop anywhere on your property. It may not be CL, but if it is I’d be sure to address it and have a plan.

[saje]

Yeah, I read all those. Not encouraging.

The placement of it looks too high and far back to be a salivary gland, unfortunately:

Picture here

These are pets so culling is not really what I want to do. I need to find a vet I think.

[saje]

It sounds though that lancing can cause more problems down the road, even if letting it burst on its own (contained area, of course) is more work.

Bah.

[Beethoven]

We had a sheep recently that had abscess that was next to her tail area that came back as CL so with hers being in the classic location it would be high on my list.

Unfortunately, if you have other goats and horses on the property culling is the safest thing for all the other animals. I know that is hard to hear with a pet.

[saje]

OK, maybe I’m dense but I’m not understanding WHY. An abscess is gross and the whole isolation and super careful cleaning/no cross contamination thing is a giant PITA, but I have 2 other goats & 4 horses, not masses of animals.

• If it presents externally once can it come back internally?

• will it always come back?

• it appears that the horse/cow strain and the sheep/goat strain are slightly different, can there still be cross contamination?

• Is it something that will cause pain or illness (poor quality of life long term) for the affected animal?

I have a couple of small ruminant vets to call tomorrow, hope I can get some clarity.

[Beethoven]

[QUOTE=saje;8489695]
OK, maybe I’m dense but I’m not understanding WHY. An abscess is gross and the whole isolation and super careful cleaning/no cross contamination thing is a giant PITA, but I have 2 other goats & 4 horses, not masses of animals.

• If it presents externally once can it come back internally?

• will it always come back?

• it appears that the horse/cow strain and the sheep/goat strain are slightly different, can there still be cross contamination?

• Is it something that will cause pain or illness (poor quality of life long term) for the affected animal?

I have a couple of small ruminant vets to call tomorrow, hope I can get some clarity.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it can go internal. I suppose if you are willing to do very strict biosecurity until the goat is healed then it’s possible for you to keep the goat. This means that the isolation should be far enough away that a fly can not transmit the disease. If it goes internal, than failure to thrive will be the biggest sign along with respiratory disease if it is in the lungs.

It is also zoonotic, so you need to take the necessary precautions so you do not end up with it.

I would first get a vet to look at the goat and confirm it is CL until then keep her isolated.

[mbv]

Other things to think about:
-A culture of abscess material is the gold standard for diagnosis. Call a vet and have the abscesses sampled before you freak out! Usually the vet can aspirate abscesses material through a needle and avoid lancing the abscess. Plenty of other bacteria cause abscesses in goats. They can be in the same locations as CL abscesses. They can look and smell just like CL abscesses (which IME are not as distinctive as many think).

-Your goat may have gotten infected on your property, so you might already have Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis in your soil, so culling this animal won’t necessarily prevent future infections of other animals (of course this depends on how long you’ve had this animal, where else it has been, and if there were ever small ruminants on your property prior). Serology of your other goats might help you better understand exposure to the bacteria, but exposure does not = disease with CL.

-While the same bacteria, C. pseudotuberculosis, causes CL in small ruminants and pigeon fever in horses, it is typically different biotypes in small ruminants vs horses.

[saje]

I have a couple of names to try calling tomorrow, there are a ton of equine and small animal vets around but only two reasonable close to me who do goats. I guess any vet could do a simple aspiration and send it for culture, but I’d like to talk to someone who’s familiar with treating small ruminants.

I’ve only had her since Oct, and there haven’t been goats on the property for at least 10 years, if ever. (We’ve been here 3, previous owner didn’t have livestock). She was actually quite poor when she came, she’s improved hugely and looks much better.

It won’t be easy but I can isolate her well.

I wonder if I should vaccinate the other two? My neighbors (2 properties over but w/in sight, sound, smell) have goats and I’d be amazed if any of their animals got anything but the roughest of vet care. It’s possible this was transmitted from there via fly, I don’t really know.

Fun with livestock-keeping! :sigh:

[Epona142]

The vaccination is not very effective currently and will cause them to test positive for CL for the rest of their lives.

I understand how difficult this is for you. Have the abscess tested.

But unfortunately that does look like a classic CL presentation.

You do not want it on your property. They are never cured of CL, even if you handle this abscess and don’t contaminate your property, she will have another. She could have them internally. They can even develop them in their udder and contaminate milk. CL is one of the most dangerous goat illnesses you can have on your property, due to its ability to remain in the soil for so long (years) and its ability to spread to other animals and humans.

If she came to you poorly in October, she likely came with this.

What is best for you and your stock and your farm as a whole is to cull her if the test comes back positive for CL. Until then, she needs to be quarantined in a location where the ground can be scraped up and burned.

I have no recorded cases of this being transmitted by flies or other parasites. It’s always transmission via contact with contaminated animals. But it’s possible I suppose.

Yes it can transmit to horses - I have at least one confirmed case.

Yes it can cause suffering in the animals. They may live for years with it, but at some point, it can overtake their immune systems, they develop internal abscesses, and go downhill in a very unpleasant way, losing weight until they die.

It sucks.

[saje]

Milk is not an issue, these are pets and not breeding stock, and I only have 2 others.

I have a vet appointment tomorrow so hopefully I can get a culture done and see what we are dealing with… and go from there.

Thanks.

[Epona142]

Good luck and good jingles.

[Beethoven]

@Epona142;8490653

I have no recorded cases of this being transmitted by flies or other parasites. It’s always transmission via contact with contaminated animals. But it’s possible I suppose.

Yes, it can be transmitted by flies when the fly acts as a fomite. Flies love abscesses, yummy pus, then fly lands on other goat/sheep with a cut etc… There you go fly transmitted CL.

[Epona142]

I’m not denying it, just have no confirmed cases in my personal files. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time.

[DressageFancy]

You are on track and having the vet see this goat. I just wanted to add that I had a goat develop a cheek abscess that was from a thorn that got under her gum and worked all the way through the flesh of her jaw. Like you, I was very scared for her when the abscess swelling first developed, but, all ended well. Hope you also have a good outcome with your goat!

[Bluey]

When you decide to be a caretaker, you need to do so right and that means looking for all you take care of.

If this is CL, to protect others, you may have to do more than try to keep your one animal isolated and with strict biosecurity measures, that are questionable in this situation.

Being a caretaker is not always a walk in the park.
There are hard times and hard decisions to make also.
Better, if you are on the spot, which you don’t know yet, but if you are, try to be sensible and not try to keep one safe at the cost of putting everyone else at risk, not only yours but others that may come in contact with whoever you have that is infected.