"Goes barefoot"

[Pocket_Pony]

@gypsymare;7259747

Unless your fields are rock hard and dry, vegetation and soil will also conform to the bottom of the hoof. The only time the sole is not supported would be on concrete or asphalt. How many of us routinely work on such surfaces?

Where I live my ground is hard and rocky and for the most part does not give and conform to the bottom of the hoof, thereby offering sole support. My horse does spend time in his stall, but not standing where the bedding is - standing on the rubber mats. Most of our trails are also hardpacked dirt, rocky, and/or gravel. When I ride in the arena, it is sand and so that’s pretty much the only time that my horse gets any softness underneath his feet. He’s a mustang and he’s barefoot and he does well on all surfaces. I’ve never shod him or even put boots on him.

I know how lucky I am to have a horse with such amazing feet! The first time my farrier saw him, he loved his feet, and I’ve gotten compliments from other farriers as well.

But, he was born that way. Other than keeping up with regular trimming, I can’t take any credit. My farrier said “that’s a horse - he hasn’t had the foot bred out of him.”

I shoe my horses who are in work and need shoes. Retired horses are barefoot. If the hoof can handle work without shoes, then I don’t shoe.

[netg]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7259742]

When I discover personally that my shoeing is hurting horses, and causing lameness. and preventing the horse from being ridden, I will do something else. I have many horses that I have been shoeing for fifteen years. They event. They are fine. So I go with what I have personally experienced and witnessed. My experience is that horses with crappy feet were usually born with crappy feet, so whatever you try and do is a crap shoot anyway.[/QUOTE]

Well, the 2nd or 3rd page of this thread someone gave specifics of a situation in which your shoeing did just that… your background certainly ruins your credibility for those of us who read about it.

[kande04]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7259747]

Average arena footing is yielding and approximately 2-4 inches deep. Likewise with stall bedding. Both deform and support the sole and frog. Unless your fields are rock hard and dry, vegetation and soil will also conform to the bottom of the hoof. The only time the sole is not supported would be on concrete or asphalt. How many of us routinely work on such surfaces?[/QUOTE]

The problem is that sand, vegetation, or hoof packing just isn’t enough to stimulate the bottom of the hoof enough so that it can maintain its shape. The wall is loaded more while the rest of the bottom of the hoof isn’t loaded as much, so the unloaded structures weaken which weakens the entire hoof.

The thinning and weakening is progressive, so if the hoof is only in shoes for a short time it’s easily reversible by removing the shoes, but the longer the horse is in shoes the more it weakens. It’s easy to see. Just take a horse with a well developed bare hoof and measure the sole thickness and other hoof parameters from rads, then shoe the horse and continue to take measurements.

In fact, one doesn’t even need rads to be able to see it. Just shoe a well developed bare hoof and the changes will become visible to the naked eye within a week, and then will continue to change until just about any fairly observant person can see them.

Just pulled my younger TBs front shoes today. She has great hoof shape, but thin walls. I’m hoping they hold up. It sure is cheaper and easier to keep her bare but if she is sore, I’m not going to let her suffer.

It takes time, but shod horses escape into the wild often enough and are then captured later with good, solid bare hooves, that we know how it works. What we don’t know is how much either shoeing or barefoot contributes to lameness, because there are just too many variables involved to be able to isolate and study that one (shoeing vs barefoot).

[gypsymare]

Really? Good solid bare hooves? Anyone have a link to that documentary showing wild horses living near some ancient ruins in Central or South America? They had awful feet. Overgrown, huge cracks. They had to be captured and trimmed. What is touted as the ideal mustang hoof in literature is the hoof of a small horse in an arid climate with daily movement and the influence of natural selection.

Proper shoeing does not damage hooves. You speak of poor shoeing and lord knows there is enough of that. I am not anti barefoot, but the idea that any horse in any environment and any workload is better off barefoot is simply not true.

[kande04]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7260263]
Really? Good solid bare hooves? Anyone have a link to that documentary showing wild horses living near some ancient ruins in Central or South America? They had awful feet. Overgrown, huge cracks. [/QUOTE]

Awful by what standards? Were the horses lame? Were they unable to live and reproduce?

Horses that self trim on soft ground grow more hoof before it breaks off, but that doesn’t mean that the hooves are unhealthy. Those who are used to looking at manicured hooves may find cracks and chips unsightly, but what they’re seeing may actually be nothing more than a hoof that has successfully adapted to the conditions under which it has to function.

They had to be captured and trimmed. What is touted as the ideal mustang hoof in literature is the hoof of a small horse in an arid climate with daily movement and the influence of natural selection.

It has been, but as more people look at functional hooves they’re realizing that horses on soft ground maintain longer walls, which is necessary if the softer hoof going to be sound enough when the horse has to travel over harder ground.

Proper shoeing does not damage hooves. You speak of poor shoeing and lord knows there is enough of that. I am not anti barefoot, but the idea that any horse in any environment and any workload is better off barefoot is simply not true.

I didn’t read anything that said that shoeing damages hooves, unless you’re interpreting weaker as damaged, but just because a protected hoof is weak doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s damaged. Holes in the hoof weaken the hoof, but don’t necessarily cause lameness. Thin flat soles and run out toes may not cause lameness either, but may simply be the way the hoof reshapes when shoes are put on.

The part I don’t like about shoeing is that the hoof has to go so long between trims, which combined with the progressive weakening of the hoof causes the hoof to reshape in ways that don’t seem like they would contribute to long term soundness. But since there’s no way to know if the changes contribute to lameness, it’s anyone’s call.

[JB]

Why does a hoof have to go “so long” between trims? It’s not uncommon for shod feet to be on a 5-6 week schedule, or thereabouts. It’s not uncommon for bare feet to be on that schedule.

If a foot is growing so fast as to “reshape”, then it’s going too long between trims, and there is enough growth to use new nail spots.

How is the foot becoming progressively weaker?

[Wirt]

[B]"Awful by what standards? Were the horses lame? Were they unable to live and reproduce?

Horses that self trim on soft ground grow more hoof before it breaks off, but that doesn’t mean that the hooves are unhealthy. Those who are used to looking at manicured hooves may find cracks and chips unsightly, but what they’re seeing may actually be nothing more than a hoof that has successfully adapted to the conditions under which it has to function. [/B]"

Interesting you should say that. In today’s, everyone is an expert atmosphere, people walk into a field full of broodmares and see feet between trimmings, in a natural state of chipping, breaking off and simple not manicured, they will look for the last guy that touched their feet, and rake him over the coals publicly, on internet sites, accuse him of animal neglect and shoddy shoeing practices, and in general get pretty ugly. Try telling a bunch of pissed off horse women with an agenda that the horses are just fine.
People should keep in mind that shoers have no control over the environment and conditions the horses live in between visits.

[paulaedwina]

Y’all done lost your damn minds.

Paula

[netg]

[QUOTE=JB;7260395]
Why does a hoof have to go “so long” between trims? It’s not uncommon for shod feet to be on a 5-6 week schedule, or thereabouts. It’s not uncommon for bare feet to be on that schedule.

If a foot is growing so fast as to “reshape”, then it’s going too long between trims, and there is enough growth to use new nail spots.

How is the foot becoming progressively weaker?[/QUOTE]

I’ve mentioned multiple times in this thread that for my horse he couldn’t be shod more often than every 6 weeks because his hoof walls wouldn’t hold a shoe otherwise, and that a 6 week cycle was too infrequent for him. He had problem hooves for which barefoot (and supported by boots as needed) was the solution I found in order to have a 2 week trim cycle. His hooves have improved drastically, and I credit the very frequent very small trims more than being bare for that. He so far hasn’t kept any of the glue-on options on, and even with my farrier attempting to re-use nail holes, we just couldn’t get him to hold a shoe for more frequent shoeing. He was not getting poor trims with shoes, but with the way his hooves grew long toe and little heel it wasn’t possible to trim enough to make a positive change without making him lame at a 6 week cycle. I am lucky that I ended up with a trainer who has done the barefoot transition on other horses with problem hooves and that he knew how to balance bare vs. booted to keep my horse comfortable.

My horse could not be ridden over rocks shod - his soles were thin enough, he would easily go lame for stepping on a rock in shoes. Pads didn’t tend to work well on him. He is oblivious to the existence of rocks in boots, and he is happier walking over rocks without shoes after the improvement of his hooves than he was with shoes.

I also live in what I feel is the ideal climate for barefoot - hot, dry, lots of sandy footing. I highly doubt barefoot could have worked for my horse if we lived in a rainy area and have continued work, so I may have ended up sticking him in a pasture barefoot until he adapted or something if I lived elsewhere.

[Kyzteke]

A horse’s feet adapt to it’s surroundings…very simple stuff, really. If you look at “wild” horses who live in a soft environment (like the wild ponies of Assetgague Island, where I camped many, MANY times – although I still can’t spell;) – and the wild horses of Carolina’s coastal areas), their feet look like crap – to US.

They spay out, have cracks, chips and generally look nasty to those use to seeing a domestic horse’s manicured foot or even the mustangs of the SW, who run on (mostly) rocky, tough ground.

But they are sound, they function just fine. Could they do the same if they were ridden constantly and asked to do something like carry weight for long distances? Probably not.

I attended a very interesting lecture by a licensed master farrier at the Endurance Championships afew years ago. The barefoot issue was discussed at length. He mentioned how much a horse’s foot adapts to it’s environment and mentioned afew cases he had seen of wild-caught mustangs whose feet deteriorated once they were no longer exposed to the same hard footing.

The same is true in reverse. There are PLENTY of cases where pulling the shoes and starting a barefoot “regime” (which I’m not going to go into at length here) produced a far superior, sounder foot, so (to me) that is not even worth discussing. It isn’t “new” news…far from it.

Does that mean every horse can do this? No…there are NEVER absolutes in this world. Many owners would prefer not to bother w/the work it takes to strengthen the hoof so “barefoot” is even a possibility. And that is a personal choice.

But it doesn’t take Einstein to realize that if you have a horse w/thin walls who is constantly losing shoes, then maybe doing something that does NOT require nailing might be better. And the options are out there to try…but like anything they require some effort and education.

Simple as that…

[JB]

netg - yes, I know there are exceptions, I should have mentioned that My comments were about what appeared to be a generic “this is how they all function” viewpoint of shod feet always going so long between trims that the feet deform and become progressively weaker. My contention is if there is so much growth that the feet are deforming, then the time between the trims is too long. There will always be horses with feet that have genetically thin walls, and who don’t grow a lot of foot, and trying to keep nails in is a constant struggle. But that’s not how they all are, that’s all

[bluemooncowgirl]

[QUOTE=JB;7253364]
Bowing out. I was merely trying to give my experiences and opinions that led to the comments I made.[/QUOTE]

Change your mind, there… JB?

[netg]

[QUOTE=JB;7260624]
netg - yes, I know there are exceptions, I should have mentioned that My comments were about what appeared to be a generic “this is how they all function” viewpoint of shod feet always going so long between trims that the feet deform and become progressively weaker. My contention is if there is so much growth that the feet are deforming, then the time between the trims is too long. There will always be horses with feet that have genetically thin walls, and who don’t grow a lot of foot, and trying to keep nails in is a constant struggle. But that’s not how they all are, that’s all :)[/QUOTE]

Which I also agree with.

I tend to think that most horses will be fine either bare or shod if they get good care. Given that choice, I would prefer bare on a horse who doesn’t have a reason to need shod, but I suspect my horse may ultimately be back in shoes, depending how he continues to adapt to bare. I think going with what the horse is telling you is best for that horse and having knowledgeable help, whether that’s a hot shoer, a barefoot specialist, or someone who can do them all and is educated and interested in the horse’s welfare, plus advice of veterinarians when needed, etc., is all important. I do disagree with blindly following a mantra other than “horse wellbeing first” and failing to look at a specific situation for what works in that situation. I think there are some arguments from either camp of extreme close mindedness we have all seen, including far more outside this thread than in it.

[JB]

[QUOTE=bluemooncowgirl;7260642]
Change your mind, there… JB?[/QUOTE]
You could put me on ignore if exercising my right to change my mind bothers you that much

netg - exactly

[bluemooncowgirl]

[QUOTE=JB;7260887]
You could put me on ignore if exercising my right to change my mind bothers you that much

netg - exactly :)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I could put you on ignore but I’d miss a lot of important information if I did that. This is a good conversation about shod v. barefoot, actually. I just thought it was funny, that’s all. Do carry on.

[JB]

If I misinterpreted your intent with that comment then I do apologize

[Wirt]

Here is an interesting take from a farrier. Basically, don’t shoe an unhealthy hoof.

http://www.keithseeley.com/category/basic-hoof-care/to-shoe-or-not-to-shoe/

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7261153]
Here is an interesting take from a farrier. Basically, don’t shoe an unhealthy hoof.

http://www.keithseeley.com/category/basic-hoof-care/to-shoe-or-not-to-shoe/[/QUOTE]

Didn’t read this, but (I think) it was Pete Ramey who said “If you have a horse with a strong hoof, by all means keep shoeing him. If his feet are subpar, try barefoot.”

Basically the same thing.

[Kyzteke]

I’ve said as much as I can say about this subject…but I want to stress that the kind of crap that gives “barefoot” a bad name AND increases the chance of failure by a ton is simply pulling the shoes off a horse who has spend most of his life shod and then expecting them to function soundly.

No only stupid, but (IMHO) cruel. I suppose there is the odd horse who can do this, but not many. The info is out there, but it requires some effort and I wish to heck more FARRIERS would educate themselves on the possibilities of OTHER OPTIONS so they can help their customers more…this tends to keep the extremists out.

And remember “barefoot” doesn’t mean the horse never has hoof protection…it just mean trying something other than nail on shoes.

Good luck to the OP, who has long since left the building…

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7261153]
Here is an interesting take from a farrier. Basically, don’t shoe an unhealthy hoof.

http://www.keithseeley.com/category/basic-hoof-care/to-shoe-or-not-to-shoe/[/QUOTE]

Interesting, yes.

My horses would be thankful I did not follow this narrow-minded thinking. Especially my mare when she was suffering from founder. I will never forget the day she staggered painfully out of her stall to the barn aisle to have clogs applied (nailed on – GASP!) to her hooves, then afterward walked out of the cross-ties SOUND. She had several shoeing changes and radiographs afterward and 10 months later her shoes were pulled and she went back to barefoot, where she has remained sound for more than four years now.