Going down steep slippery hills??

[Shadow14]

I am sure this was covered at one time but not since I have been here.
How to go down steep slippery hills?? It was gorgous out this morning. While in the high 30’s the sun was shinning and the sky was clear blue. You still needed your ears covered but it was beautiful.
At night it gets down to the teens so everything is frozen solid. Late in the day it melts and we did have heavy rains a few days ago with flooding.
I had to go down a few really treacherous rain cut gulleys. The rain washing down hill cuts deep washes into the sand banks creating ravines about head high to a horse and steep with usually a small waterfall or two on the way down. While there is no longer any water in them the sand with the teen temperatures at night have turned to stone. You leave no tracks and the horse can not cut into it for footing along with channels snaking their way along this path. The drop offs can be up to 3 feet straight down.
So while angling down at a steep angle you also have to contend with drop offs. All in all it can lead to treacherous footing.
I love to work Rio my new guy on these for experience and today we did a number of them.
The only things I can say about doing these deep drop offs is Stay in the middle of the wash, don’t let the horse get on the side of the slope and KEEP YOUR WEIGHT FORWARD… Do not puy weight on the hind end, keep leaning slightly forward and allow yourself to slide to the front of the saddle. You want to plant the front feet, let the rears slide.
If you lean back and load the hind end it will slide out from under you and both of you will sit down hard.
By planting the front feet you are securing his hold on the downgrade. If his hind end slides let it. He just needs his fronts planted and he will not go over backwards.

So if you ever worry about a deep descent remember me, lean forwards, plant the front feet and unload the hinds and you will be all right.
Guaranteed:D:D

[Beverley]

I disagree.

First of all, The Rule about hills is, let the horse pick its way up a steep, zigzagging as needed. Steep downill, horse straight at all times. If it is slick and he loses footing, he simply sits down and slides and you get your Man From Snowy River moment. If you are at any angle at all, you’re asking for a fall of horse, and obviously rider too.

The ONLY time I will ever angle downhill is on an established trail, generally with switchbacks.

And you DO want the balance on the hind end on a steep downhill. A horse rocking forward onto the front end is going to have trouble. Uphill or down, you want to be light in the saddle, but with your body perpendicular to what would be flat terrain.

Preparing a young horse for a steep downhill means some good miles on gradual downhills. I have a spot that is 4 miles down at enough of a grade that it’s a little work, but not dramatic slopes. At any time on that grade I can ask the horse to collect and rock back, using his hind end correctly. Stopping and backing is a good exercise too. When on that long downhill a young horse gets tired and starts getting heavy on the forehand from the fatigue, we can stop, turn sideways and rest, and then insist he use himself correctly. It isn’t too long before one figures out that shifting the weight back and staying useful on the front end is the way to go.

Please, don’t negotiate steeps downhill at an angle. I see plenty of ‘old hands’ doing it that way in these parts because it’s what they were taught. But in reality, it’s wrong, and it’s a good way to fall off a mountain.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Beverley;3947795]
I disagree.

Please, don’t negotiate steeps downhill at an angle. I see plenty of ‘old hands’ doing it that way in these parts because it’s what they were taught. But in reality, it’s wrong, and it’s a good way to fall off a mountain.[/QUOTE]

I have no idea where this came from?? It certianly is not what I was talking about??? I was not talking about zig zagging down a hill or anything remotely connected to it.
As for backing up??? The slopes I am sliding down a horse has enough problems just stopping, forget backing up, forget turning sideways, there is just no room and the slope is far to steep. These grades might only be 50 or 100 feet but it is basically sliding only. If you put weight on the hind end you will go over backwards,
Horses are not ment to go down hill, get a mule if you want one for slopes but not a horse. With his hind legs basically parallel to the slope he has no hold with his hind end, only front can hold him from sliding.

Again where did I mention going down a steep slope at an angle???
With a deep water cut ravine you only have one coarse and that is straight down the center, banks 6 feet high and far too steep for a horse to climp out of and only about a foot wide path right down the center.

A question?? If you are already slidding down a steep dry waterway and you come to say a 3 foot dry waterfall how does a good horse negotiate his way down that drop off???

[Beverley]

@Shadow14;3947680

So while angling down at a steep angle you also have to contend with drop offs.

This line from your original post would be taken to mean not going straight down.

As for backing up- read the post before responding. I wrote in the context of schooling young horses for balance on a more gentle slope.

You can’t go over backwards headed DOWNhill on a steep slope. Certainly you can going uphill.

Why would you post, originally, about going downhill on a horse and then post in your next post that horses are not meant to go downhill? And before you say you didn’t mean that, please refer to the second sentence in your first post: “How to go down steep slippery hills?”

When my horses encounter a 3 foot dropoff, they would just hop on down. Assuming I ask them to. Which I would, assuming a decent landing area, or, what I just came from is not something I want to try to go back up. Hopefully the former.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Beverley;3947929]
You can’t go over backwards headed DOWNhill on a steep slope. Certainly you can going uphill.

Why would you post, originally, about going downhill on a horse and then post in your next post that horses are not meant to go downhill? And before you say you didn’t mean that, please refer to the second sentence in your first post: “How to go down steep slippery hills?”

When my horses encounter a 3 foot dropoff, they would just hop on down. Assuming I ask them to. Which I would, assuming a decent landing area, or, what I just came from is not something I want to try to go back up. Hopefully the former.:)[/QUOTE]

Can’t go over backwards going down hill??? Sure you can. The horses hind end slids out from under him, goes between his front legs and over backwards he goes. Been there done that.

Horses are NOT made to go down hills but we still do it. Ride down into the grand canyon and they use donkeys because they can handle steep slopes. Horses hind ends are not made for steep slopes.

Nope to the 3 foot drop. A good trail horse does not hop down a 3 foot drop while descending a steep slope. He squates down like a big cat, his front end goes over the drop while his hind end lowers to the ground, again like a big cat and he keeps his back almost straight so you are not propelled forward and he just gently pushes off with his hind legs. Again been there, done that many times.

this is going nowhere. I was posting to help people if they got into a situation where the slope was really steep so I will no longer argue the point.
I was there today, did that so take it or leave it fokes but I guess it is only my and Rio’s opinion on how to do it safely:yes:

[Icecapade]

Intersting.

First I humbly will disagree… You and Rio’s way are not the only way to do it safely. People have been doing this for years, and while your years of experiance is valuable and we appreciate your input, it is simply NOT the only way. This has NOT lost the ability to be a useful discussion, if we maintain civility and physics

Secondly I agree with both of you, (although there is a fair amount of hair spliting here) Do not lean excessively forward or back… Balancing on YOUR horse for YOUR hill is crucial. If you lean/slide forward on my saddle on my horse, on a slope of 35 degrees or so… you will find yourself without a horse. I ride a small horse that is fairly balanced wither/hip, you will be sans horse. I tend to be a touch BTV. My old gelding, built more uphill and could fly, literally fly down hill… I was a touch ahead. He was much more uphill and balanced down a hill running, than my currant stallion is a squater, really shots forward with the hinds. I really believe it has more to do with the horse’s ability to balanc, ability to move effieciently down a hill and how he physically is built.

I don’t agree about ‘loading the front end’… its balance… if there is little traction on hardened surfaces, if you put weight on something and your coefficent of friction is off… you are simply going to slide more and push the front end out. And well… if you are properly balanced, you aren’t going to load anything… ie two point really doesn’t ‘release’ the horse’s hind end… you should still be firmly balanced in your two stirrups which hand from the saddle… ie your horse’s back.

I think its more likely on a suface with less traction to let the horse run with his fores and slide with his rears and you won’t have the flip, although I don’t discount it is possible- unlikely but possible… a horse should be able to keep balanced enough… the only way he is going to flip is if his head gets ripped upwards, which is rider error.

Anyway, there is no formula, add this degree of this and that degree of that to create the perfect scenario. It must come from training, practice and mistakes for horse and rider. Thats expected of any good trail horse.

[Beverley]

@Shadow14;3947974

Can’t go over backwards going down hill??? Sure you can. The horses hind end slids out from under him, goes between his front legs and over backwards he goes. Been there done that.

I was posting to help people if they got into a situation where the slope was really steep so I will no longer argue the point.
I was there today, did that so take it or leave it fokes but I guess it is only my and Rio’s opinion on how to do it safely:yes:

And I haven’t. Because I know how to negotiate steeps safely. If you tell me you’ve managed to flip a horse backwards going down a steep hill, then you are convincing me all the more that your advice is flawed.

And yes, you did start a thread apparently to share your wisdom on how to safely negotiate steep hills. And I posted because anytime I see anybody posting bad/dangerous advice, I’m going to respond. Nothing personal.

So yes, as with all posts of advice in these parts, folks can take or leave yours. Or mine, for that matter. I just don’t like seeing the potential for people to get hurt based on misinformation.

[LuvMyNSH]

@Beverley;3947795

Steep downill, horse straight at all times. If it is slick and he loses footing, he simply sits down and slides and you get your Man From Snowy River moment. If you are at any angle at all, you’re asking for a fall of horse, and obviously rider too.

The ONLY time I will ever angle downhill is on an established trail, generally with switchbacks.

This is is how I was taught.

I have some DVDs made from training films the army produced in 1942 - one deals with jumping and handling obstacles cross county. They teach that you go down steep hills straight, never at an angle.

I’m thinking the US Cavalry knew a couple things about riding.

[pj1]

Shadow, I have to disagree with you, too. Sounds VERY dangerous to me. Sounds as if the way you do it if something happened you’ll come off and your horse will be all over you, too.
I’ll only add to what the others have said by saying I feel much safer going down a very steep hill or a very slick hill on a horse that GOES on down. I hate and feel unsafe on those horses who want to tip toe down. Y’all know what I mean?

[Shadow14]

I had the unique situation of boarding right beside the highest hill in southern Ontario. A glacier plowing the land as it moved south left a huge mound right beside the farm. If you go to the top of this hill you can see for miles in all directions. Right at the base of this tall hill is a lake and swamp well below normal ground level. Once down in the swamp the footing is fine with absolutely no mud/bogs on the trail but get off the trail and you will loose a horse to quick sand even in the driest years.
I created a trail down into this swamp maybe 10 years ago and 4 times a week I traversed my way down into this swamp rather then take the long flat way around it. I head down and through the swamp and climb out the toher side.
When I take new people out and they get a climps of the hill we are going down they bock but I assure them, lean forward, keep the weith off the hind end and you will be fine.
Regardless of the rain, the slick footing, the snow I continuely do this steep grad comming and going. Even brand new horses like Rio do the grad and learn quickly how to handle the pitch.
I don’t go down on an angle, I go straight down the grade regardless of what some of you are reading into the original post.
I have felt the horse skid on the slick foot and start skiing on the hind end but it is not a motion I enjoy nor want. I want the front end planted firmly in the hill and I do NOT want the horse to ski down.
Anytime you loose traction even briefly you are loosing control.
We have traction control on ALL new cars to prevent even the smallest amount of skidding because to skid means to loose control.
You do not want to loose control. Keep the horse in a straight line, keep weight well forward on the front legs, free up the hind end and you will be fine.
I certianly many a time have played all aspects of control down a slick hill, I certainly have had my share of hind ends skiing down the hill and I have learned how to get down without loosing it and have taught alot of others how to negotiate a slippery slope.
If you are climbing you lean forward to unload the hind end. Do the same going down.
Yes I have had a horse go over backwards, his hind end slid right out from under him passing his front end.
If anyone says they have never had a problem on down hill slopes then they obviously have not pushed the limits. I have wiped out 2 times, but again I do push the limits, so I know what I can do, what a horse is capable of and skiing down a hill is not the way. While skidding you are not in control , the horse is not in control of it’s own movements. Backing up is rediculous on a really steep slope as is turning sideways to rest the horse.
I did 2 extreme hills this weekend with my young guy Rio and he learns quickly…
If in doubt error on the safe side, lean forward. If you get the horse slidding down a hill Do NOT LEan Back, it is only compound the problem.
Agree with me or not, it won’t hurt me or Rio but it could get you in trouble if you push the limit.
I do have years of experience, I do know how to take extreme downslopes and I do not beleive sliding a horse is about control and a safe way of doing things.

[pj1]

Shadow, I Thought the hills we were talking about were ones where there is no backing up or turning sideways was possible. Ones once commited down you go one way or another. Saw a friend of mine do a really great save one day on a hill like that. A bunch of us came down a steep hill, one by one, to the bottom of a waterfall. My friend was last in line and I guess the rocks had been loosened by the horses coming down before her.
Her horse starting going down and you could see there was going to be a tumblesault, she sat back on him and raised his head in the air with her hands held high. Came down like the man from snowy river. Pretty good reflexes and strength for an old gal. IF she had been coming down as you suggest I doubt there would be much left of her OR her horse and I would be so sad. She’s my best friend and I would miss her.

[wateryglen]

just my 2 cents!

Personally I’m gonna go with Beverleys experiences especially with her being in Utah with gigantic mountains!!! :yes:
But another factor is the weight ratio of rider to horse. A heavier or larger rider might be advised to NOT put their weight too forward on a steep downhill while a little child or peanut of a rider could on a big horse. Your “ratio” would be a major factor here imho.

While the Blue Ridge mountains are no Rocky mountains; I love switchbacks when trail riding there. Most of the horse trails have them and they are pretty much safe. Thank goodness for us “flatlanders”!!! :winkgrin:

[Auventera_Two]

The tendency of both my trail riding mares on steep downhills is to squat and slide down on their hinds with the front feet just supporting. But the majority of the weight is definitely on the haunches. I never taught it, it’s just natural so I figured that was the correct way. One of our trails has a creek with very steep banks going down on both sides. The bank is probably a good 12 feet long. They always squat and slide down into the water. I try to stay as centered as possible and not lean forward or backward.

Once my Arab got to that bank and instead of sitting and sliding, she took a flying leap and just dropped to the bottom and landed belly deep in the water. It scared the hell out of me, lost my stirrups and jammed my arm but I managed to stay on. Sure didn’t do her back any favors though. Good grief. Never did it before, never since. I thought geeze you’d make a good eventer. :rolleyes:

We don’t have a lot of hills in the midwest, though there are a few trails in the driftless zone that have some respectable climbs and descents. I try to get on those trails a couple times a year for practice.

Personally, I’d rather the horse slide down with the haunches tucked, than stiff leg it down with weight on the forehand. That is a LOT of pressure on the bones and soft tissue of the front legs. But of course jumpers land with all the weight on the forehand, but that doesn’t look too healthy to me either.

[Beverley]

@Shadow14;3951102

Yes I have had a horse go over backwards, his hind end slid right out from under him passing his front end.

If in doubt error on the safe side, lean forward. If you get the horse slidding down a hill Do NOT LEan Back, it is only compound the problem.
Agree with me or not, it won’t hurt me or Rio but it could get you in trouble if you push the limit.
I do have years of experience, I do know how to take extreme downslopes and I do not beleive sliding a horse is about control and a safe way of doing things.

Shadow, do you not see that the fact that you’ve had a horse go over backwards - your description, hind end slips past front end- points directly to the dangers of your advice? I’m going to disagree with you, again. You apparently do NOT know how to go down extreme slopes safely. I don’t care how many times you insist that you do.

[LookinSouth]

@Shadow14;3947974

this is going nowhere. I was posting to help people if they got into a situation where the slope was really steep

But how is it helpful if it’s incorrect? I dont’ have nearly the experience that Beverley (and I absolutely trust her opinion) does but upon reading your post and stating to lean forward when traveling down steep inclines I thought to myself that is asking for trouble…

And just because you tested the extreme and lived to tell about it doesn’t mean you did it safely and correctly.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=pj;3951285]
Shadow, I Thought the hills we were talking about were ones where there is no backing up or turning sideways was possible. .[/QUOTE]

You are not reading what I said?? I said it is rediculous for someone to advise me to back up or turn sideways on a hill like this. Once committed it is all the way, no turning back, no backing, no turning.
As for your friend throwing her arms up and leaning back that too is rediculous and the worst thing you can do for those back legs.
On a steep slope the front are braced out in front of you while the hinds because of the slope are much higher then the front and those bend on an angle almost parallelling the ground giving them very little traction. Throw weight on them just increases their chance of sliding and passing the braced front. A horse can not do a controlled slide front and back. He needs well planted fronts to maintain control. Again like a car in a hard break. You do NOT lock up the 4 wheels. Control is not about lock up.

[pj1]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3951378]

Once my Arab got to that bank and instead of sitting and sliding, she took a flying leap and just dropped to the bottom and landed belly deep in the water. It scared the hell out of me, lost my stirrups and jammed my arm but I managed to stay on. Sure didn’t do her back any favors though. Good grief. Never did it before, never since. I thought geeze you’d make a good eventer. :rolleyes:

.[/QUOTE]
I wish I’d seen that!! Probably wasn’t too good for Your back either!!
I can imagine the shocked look you must have had on your face.

[pj1]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3951444]
You are not reading what I said?? I said it is rediculous for someone to advise me to back up or turn sideways on a hill like this. Once committed it is all the way, no turning back, no backing, no turning.
As for your friend throwing her arms up and leaning back that too is rediculous and the worst thing you can do for those back legs.
On a steep slope the front are braced out in front of you while the hinds because of the slope are much higher then the front and those bend on an angle almost parallelling the ground giving them very little traction. Throw weight on them just increases their chance of sliding and passing the braced front. A horse can not do a controlled slide front and back. He needs well planted fronts to maintain control. Again like a car in a hard break. You do NOT lock up the 4 wheels. Control is not about lock up.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I didn’t paint a good picture of what happened. IF…SHE…HAD…BEEN…LEANING…FORWARD…AS…YOU…SUGGEST…THE…HORSE…WOULD…HAVE…TUMBLED…HEAD…OVER…HEELS. He stumbled or the rocks slid out from under his feet He was going down and would have flipped. He had already dropped that head for a fall when she snatched him up. All this was split second and very scarey to see Probably wasn’t good for his legs OR his mouth but better than them coming tumbling down the hill.
:lol: You are going to cause me to have to start taking blood pressure pills.

[katarine]

I’m so glad that I learned to ignore Shadow’s rants and raves. Here’s the Cliff’s Notes on how he functions:

[LIST=1]

He's older and smarter than all of us women.

We're women, what could we know.

He's the guy all the fellow boarders run to for advice.

If they don't run to him, he runs to them and makes them do it his way. Or tells them to refer to #1 if they don't. This pure speculation on my part, based on how he functions on this board.

He's been riding since forever.

He's known it all forever.

Anyone doing anything any other way just hasn't learned how to do it his way. I mean THE one true way.

Every ride is an adventure of semis, road shoulders, nowhere to go, and a Arab that sorta wishes he weren't so easy to catch.

Some people live in prettier places but they aren't him, aren't a man, and aren't capable of knowing more. See #2.

If you ride in a different way, it's cuz you don't know know better, and don't get to board with him. see 1-4

Did I miss anything? Just a reminder, we're all a bunch of girls, we really should just listen to him. Our Savior, who art riding an Arabian, Shadow be thy name... [/LIST]

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=katarine;3951632]
I’m so glad that I learned to ignore Shadow’s rants and raves. Here’s the Cliff’s Notes on how he functions:

[LIST=1]

He's older and smarter than all of us women.

We're women, what could we know.

He's the guy all the fellow boarders run to for advice.

If they don't run to him, he runs to them and makes them do it his way. Or tells them to refer to #1 if they don't. This pure speculation on my part, based on how he functions on this board.

He's been riding since forever.

He's known it all forever.

Anyone doing anything any other way just hasn't learned how to do it his way. I mean THE one true way.

Every ride is an adventure of semis, road shoulders, nowhere to go, and a Arab that sorta wishes he weren't so easy to catch.

Some people live in prettier places but they aren't him, aren't a man, and aren't capable of knowing more. See #2.

If you ride in a different way, it's cuz you don't know know better, and don't get to board with him. see 1-4

Did I miss anything? Just a reminder, we're all a bunch of girls, we really should just listen to him. Our Savior, who art riding an Arabian, Shadow be thy name... [/LIST][/QUOTE]

Katarina this is nothing but a personal attack?? But it is something I expect from you.:)
It’s not really worth posting here .