Trying to figure out a good bit for a 2yo that is like riding a wet noodle lol. Her current owner/trainer has her in a single jointed o ring and at least for me, it does us no favors. Any time I touch the bit she will put her head up, tuck it to her chest, open her mouth, etc. and it’s certainly not helping with steering. She’s the polar opposite of my other horse, who is naturally much stiffer and will resist by getting heavy on the bit. His bit is an eggbutt with a copper lozenge link in the center or any myler with level 1 mouth and fixed cheeks. I’ve never had any luck with single jointed bits, but a lot of people say it’s the only thing they’ll use on colts. I don’t want to play around with a bunch of different bits so early on in her training, and I understand she is still a baby so a lot of her issues are just part of the learning process. However, I want her to be as comfortable as possible, and I want to be able to communicate as clearly as possible, especially in these early stages of training. I was thinking a french link fulmer or my level 1 myler D ring, but would love to hear what others would use in this scenario.
So she inverts and hides behind the bridle?
How many rides does she have on her?
most of mine get started in a loping hackamore, they don’t seem to fight it or hide behind it. Once you get her guiding around in the hackamore, I would reintroduce the bit. Have you tried long lining to work on steering? I ground drive all of mine and it makes my job so much easier when I swing a leg over
She’s had about 60 rides spread out over the last few months I believe. Her current owner is a trainer and he has done pretty much all the work so far. I’m not sure if he long lined her at all, I have never done it before. I just started riding her this week. She doesn’t always invert behind the bridle, but it’s one evasion she does when you’re trying to ask her for whoa and she wants to go forward. I’m looking at buying her, and if so, might try the hackamore because that makes more sense to me but everyone seems to have their different ways of doing things.
Without seeing the horse, I am going to guess that he has taught her to evade the bit. Horses don’t normally respond to the bit in this way “on their own”. I personally like double-jointed snaffle bits better than single-jointed snaffles. But I do prefer to start young ones in a snaffle. Especially if they are already evading the bit, often if you try to go to anything with leverage (curb bit), they will evade even more.
You won’t hurt her by trying different bits on her, to see if she goes a little better in one versus another.
Sounds like she needs to learn how to go better off your seat and leg cues, which will help with the steering and re-teaching her to follow her nose.
Do you do most of your riding in an arena? On the trails? Honestly for a horse that has learned to evade the bit, I like to get them out of the arena and “let their mouth be”, stay off the reins as much as possible, and get moving on the trails. It seems to help reset their mind on evading the bit. When they’ve somewhat learned to “be a horse again”, then it’s easier to start re-training them the proper way to respond to the bit.
You could certainly put her in a hackmore for the time being. It’s not going to hurt to expose them to new things.
Is there any reason you’d choose a loping hackamore over a sidepull? I’ve used a sidepull with success on my older horse but have never used a loping hackamore. It looks like it would be more difficult to steer in that.
ETA-I mostly ride in the arena, but we do have one trail and some space around the boarding facility to ride on. It’s been cold and windy and rainy here lately so I will probably get outside more once the weather cooperates.
Choosing a loping hackamore or side pull is a preference.
You work on the whole horse and how it responds to you with a loping hackamore, is used as a signal you have trained the horse to respond to by thinking and without resisting, by willingly cooperate with you.
As you say, you can’t just pull around on a loping hackamore or bosal, that would only teach a horse to pull thru it.
A sidepull is a very different kind of communication, where you pull the head here and there by the nose, guiding the horse directly.
So is a snaffle.
Both ways work just fine, but with side pulls I rather go to a regular snaffle right away, more refined communication then.
With loping hackamores, you can stay with those for a couple months still teaching all along with more refinement, remember a horse is listening to all your aids there completely on it’s own, that is what it has learned, you are not helping him by pressure, not on the nose or mouth.
We may say, the loping hackamore is an indirect method of communication, asking the horse to listen to you and then figure what you were asking and the side pull and bit a direct one, by their actions on nose and mouth directing what the horse has to do.
The real old vaquero tradition didn’t even use snaffles.
Horses were trained with bosals and after some years moved on to curb bits.
Snaffles were considered farmer’s bits for plow horses, best to pull on them to direct where they were to go or when to stop.
Of course a really skilled trainer can use most anything and make it work for whatever purpose is needed.
Some trainers just prefer snaffles, others side pulls, others some kind of hackamore and also depends on the horse, some are lighter by nature, others more bracey etc.
Hose preference on the side pull vs loping hack too…i had one that hated a side pull but went great in a hack and a snaffle bit…also had one that hated both the hack and the sidepull and preferred a snaffle.
If it were me, i would put her in a loping hackamore and get her guiding good off her feet and seat, it seems like she is worrying about the bridle so I would eliminate it for now and get her some confidence
The trainer at my barn ries in a rope halter for a while and uses a nathe to start all his horses. It is very soft and direct. not for neck reining. The horses do well with it
I guess I don’t know what you mean by “loping” hackamore. Can’t say I’ve heard that term before.
Steering isn’t much different in a hackmore vs sidepull, IMO, just different in terms of the cue they provide. No different than the way that bits communicate differently. No matter what, this horse needs to learn to follow-their-nose again. My hackamore of choice is a Little S Hackamore. If you’ve already got a sidepull, give it a try and see what happens.
But remember-- you need to re-teach her how to steer with legs and seat, so your goal is to try to leave the reins alone if possible!!
I disagree. You can man handle just about anything in a sidepull…reins are connected to the aides of a noseband and you use direct pulling pressure to steer…a loping hack has a rawhide noseband very similarly shaped to a bosal and the reins attach at the chin…it requires a lot more leg and seat guidance as well as using your hands long and low and using gentle bumping or soft fluid pulls to get a reaction…you can’t man handle them into steering or anything else…its a much more refined bridle.
Hopefully, I don’t sound like an A-hole along with the disclaimer of not knowing the OP as a rider and knowing the horse or current owner/trainer.
Since it seems most on here are mainly English riders who are dabbling in western, how much western riding has the OP done under a trainer? Even though I wasn’t an English rider when I was young just switching from being a ranch kid to reiners and reined cow horses were a big difference. They seemed “noodley” to me. I have seen some English riders switching have an issue as well until they were taught how to ride those types. (And once they realized the difference in styles and how to ride them really excel).
However, the description in the first post doesn’t sound ideal but I thought I’d throw it out there.
I will say the loping hackamore wasn’t meant to be a training tool. It was for us dumb kids loping down cutters who didn’t know better to keep us out those horses mouths! Haha! So if you just want to get out of his face for a few rides, give it a try.
A hackamore in the true sense, a bosal setup, can help bring the nose out and a few rides in one might be beneficial. However, the hackamore isn’t the best fit for every rider, horse or situation.
I have never had much use for a side pull but I guess that’s a preference, much like riding in a halter past the first couple of rides.
For colts who have been scared by the bit, I found a mullen mouthpiece to help. Leave their head alone, throw the reins to them within reason and let them pack it around to figure out it isn’t going to hurt them. If it is too much still you can go back a step to the halter, loping hackamore, side pull until he is comfortable then try a Mullen.
The loping hackamore was made popular in the 1950’s by Pine Johnson, of Poco Bueno fame.
He is the one that introduced his version of it, the grass rope nose type, to so many trainers of his day.
It was not as you assume “for us dumb kids loping down cutters who didn’t know better to keep us out those horses mouths!”, but a good way to start cutters much lighter than pulling on the reins with a snaffle in their mouth, as so many were starting colts then, or with those big, heavy rawhide hackamores that went bang-bang-bang on their noses as the horses loped around.
It was, for that time and has been since, a better tool for the task for many trainer and the horses it was suited for.
Hopefully this will explain a little more how loping hackamores came to be, at least in old cutting circles and as they are still being used today by many trainers.
That is pretty interesting!
Back when I was making the rounds, we never started colts in them we just used them for loping.
Everyone does things differently and if it works for them, why not?
We have started all our horses for decades in grass nose hackamores, race, ranch and cutting ones.
Some we went to a snaffle after a few rides, others after a couple months.
It depended on the colt and the timing, what they needed to be doing when.
There are also all different kinds of loping hackamores and of hackamores themselves.
It can get confusing at times what someone means they are using.
I think the important advice for the OP on starting colts is to work under a very good, experienced trainer.
That will make life for the OP and any horse it trains better than trying to reinvent the wheel.
I am not arguing with you, I found it interesting people used the loping hackamore to start colts. We just used those grass loping hackamores for just that, loping. Never used the ones with the rawhide nose button or the ones made out a cut up rope.
When we started colts in a hackamore(bosal setup), if it was too heavy or stiff and banging on their face then we switched to softer and most likely shorter one and it should be adjusted correctly. If it’s banging on their face it doesn’t fit and it defeats the purpose of using a hackamore as you’ll end up dulling them. Some people want to pull on them as if they are using a side pull then wonder why their horse runs through it. Hence my comment earlier about them not being for every horse, rider, and situation.
First of all, I’m not 100% sure what you are disagreeing about but…
You can manhandle a horse is anything, whether it’s a bit or bitless, with some things stronger than others. Of course, manhandling will not do the horse nor the rider any favors.
I had to Google loping hackmore b/c I’ve honestly never heard of it. After looking at it, I feel like the term “hackmore” is misleading because it’s not really a true hackamore. While it’s not a true bosal either, I would lean toward classifying it at a bosal rather than a hackamore based on the design.
So when I use the term “hackmore”, I am not referring to a loping hackamore that the OP brought up.
As I stated above, OP needs to reteach this horse to respond to seat and leg cues no matter what they decide to use on their head/mouth.
I have no idea what manhandling has to do with anything, or why you are bringing that up. No one suggested manhandling the horse??
I’m referring to you saying that a sidepull and loping hackamore are essentially the same…they are in fact,not. In a side pull, you use direct pulling right or left to steer said horse. The loping hackamore is a more refined tool using some nose but mainly cheek pressure to communicate.
And I’m sorry you find the term “loping hackamore” to be confusing but that is what the tool is called.
That’s not what I said. Please re-read. I said:
“Steering isn’t much different in a hackmore vs sidepull, IMO, just different in terms of the cue they provide. No different than the way that bits communicate differently.”
You can pick up a direct rein with either, and you are still picking up a direct rein. Yes of course the cue the headgear will provide is different, as I specifically stated. But that doesn’t change the fact that you pick up a direct rein to cue them.
You are interpreting my post(s) incorrectly.
And where did I say it was confusing? I didn’t. I said I had not heard of the term. That’s not the same thing.
Again, actually read what I am writing, instead of inferring things that are not there that I did not write.
IMO, a bosal and a hackamore are the same thing. I use the term interchangably. Then there is a mechanical hackamore, which is not a tool I personally use.
Not an opinion. A bosal is a type of hackamore. What we usually call a hackamore is a mechanical hackamore.
(and now I’ve typed “hackamore” too often, and the word has become alien and meaningless…hackamore hackamore hackamore! )
