Good Guinness Missing

[Midge]

well, gosh EL, fascinating post, but I am not sure why you quoted mine as your post really has nothing to do with what I said.

@equinelaw;3951316

We were proud of them and liked to know about them as they were a reflection on us as well and the animal we spent 12 hours a day with and had our hands on more then anyone else in the team. The GP horses were the stars. We knew all about them and just like any other sports fans did not find it a bother to want to learn more.

I am sure Frank’s grooms are as well, but they did not have a GP horse, they had a children’s jumper.

As for the teeth, I do not find that all common. A few months ago I posted pics of a similar mouth because it was as shocking.

Did someone post pics of the imposter’s mouth???

In fact, in the weeks before I posted 2 Vets and one dentists said it looked like the horse had mouth cancer. They had not seen such an unexplainable mess either.

Must have been something more than missing teeth, because missing teeth does not = unexplainable mess.

But from your comments it seems things have changed. You make it sound like a big show barn these days resembles a large scale poultry operation. The grooms are either minimum wage workers with no actual interest in horses or the have so many to care for there is no time to care about each one.

Really??? Where did I say that?

That’s a shame, because back when I was a groom we were expected to know every detail about a horses in our charge since the riders and trainers actually did deal with 20-30 a day.

Where did I say that Frank’s groom did not know every detail of the children’s jumper in his charge? I do believe I said he was the one who would have been first to notice the missing teeth.

Of course you might just be wrong and have no idea what grooms think or do or care about. Maybe you have never been one or do not take the time to know yours or respect their opinions? Maybe your grooms are just stall cleaners and not highly trained professionals who do a job they love and do it well? Thats a shame.

I am wrong about multiple things every day. Most people are. I have no grooms and like you have not been one since the 80’s. Also like me, almost every one of my friends is a groom or works in the horse business in some capacity or other.

but, you know, you wouldn’t ask them anything important because they were just grooms and because hey have accents they must not know or care about anything to do with the horses they rub.

Well, you should ask them because they are the ones that would know. Whenever I hear an accent, I think, ‘Well, there’s another person who knows at least one more language than I do.’

That was before all the really bad stuff came out. So yes, he is on the list of people I do not even know. By choice.

Me too.

I do not think he is guilty of anything here because there does not seem to be any real profit motive, not because I am sure he would never do something dishonest.

Me too. Not to mention almost zero chance of it working.

Its nice to know that its all so clean and fine and dandy now. Because with grooms taking care of dozens of horses costs must be really low and maybe showing is less expensive?

Really??? Who told you that???

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=Dun Ciarain;3951396]
Actually, I believe that we are debating the Lessee’s reponsiblities under USEF rules.[/QUOTE]

It does not appear that a lease was filed with USEF. The ‘exhibitor’ is the USEF owner of record. The lessee may simply be the rider and not have any responsibility under the rule quoted.

So no, we aren’t debating the lessee’s responsibility, it’s the owners reposnsibility that I asked about.

[Dun_Ciarain]

[QUOTE=S A McKee;3951526]
It does not appear that a lease was filed with USEF. The ‘exhibitor’ is the USEF owner of record. The lessee may simply be the rider and not have any responsibility under the rule quoted.

So no, we aren’t debating the lessee’s responsibility, it’s the owners reposnsibility that I asked about.[/QUOTE]

Doesn’t everyone (owner, rider, trainer) who signs a USEF-sanctioned show entry form implicitly or explicitly agree to be bound by the USEF rules?

Under your scenario, are GG’s owner’s are responsible for the rules violation even though they had no idea their horse had been mistakenly switched for another horse? Taken further, if their horse have been stolen and entered under a false name (they are still the legal owners), would they be responsible for a rules violation?

[equinelaw]

[QUOTE=Midge;3951517]
well, gosh EL, fascinating post, but I am not sure why you quoted mine as your post really has nothing to do with what I said.

I am sure Frank’s grooms are as well, but they did not have a GP horse, they had a children’s jumper.

Did someone post pics of the imposter’s mouth???

Must have been something more than missing teeth, because missing teeth does not = unexplainable mess.

Really??? Where did I say that?

Where did I say that Frank’s groom did not know every detail of the children’s jumper in his charge? I do believe I said he was the one who would have been first to notice the missing teeth.

I am wrong about multiple things every day. Most people are. I have no grooms and like you have not been one since the 80’s. Also like me, almost every one of my friends is a groom or works in the horse business in some capacity or other.

Well, you should ask them because they are the ones that would know. Whenever I hear an accent, I think, ‘Well, there’s another person who knows at least one more language than I do.’

Me too.

Me too. Not to mention almost zero chance of it working.

Really??? Who told you that???[/QUOTE]

I can’t do all that fancy quote stuff. Read your own post and the one before that where you scoffed at the idea a groom (with an accent) would care, know, or have time to look up the horse in his charge. Too busy. Wayy tooo many horses to know each one. Don’t have time for interest the horses they care for. Blah blah blah. . . And the part where such suggestions show a lack of mileage? I got miles, I just assumed you had info that everything had changed and there were new roads.

Yes, pictures of his mouth were posted. It was remarkable in the way that is was something worth remarking on. Especially for a horse that we presume was not raised on the open range or something. It was remarkable enough that when a much less expensive horse that I saw had similar changes the Vet said cancer. That might elicit more then a “huh”.

GG was sent as a GP horse to be sold as a GP horse. If he was showing in the childrens he must have had an opportunity to really fail to meet up to any expectations. I doubt they just unloaded him and decided to drop him down. That is worthy of notice and remark. If any such events or remarks were made I would assume his groom would know about them. In fact the horse that was sent, while adorable and lovable looking, was sort of a sad sack sweat looking horse that had no airs of GPness about him. And he certainly did not have the attitude that even a 2 minute You-tube clip showed GG had. Such inconsistencies would certainly raise my curiosity. Even to the level of WTF:confused: and enough to make me look around some.

I am simply not going to bother learning how to mini quote because you do not read what you write. I believe it started with "I, too, laughed at the idea a groom would. . . .

Perhaps you are unaware that was my post you laughed at. But that is not so surprising if you do not even read you own posts.

I do not have any idea what went on, why it went on, or if such mix ups are common, but in no way shape or form should they be. These are horses. Lord help us if horse people breed, train or sell dogs that really do only come in one color if they can’t tell horses apart!

Horses are not luggage. They are individual animals with personalities and abilities and characteristics. The impostor horse is no slouch, but even in the first picture of him my first response was “I’ll take him!” Because in the shape he was in in that picture I just thought he might be unwanted and free. That was silly, but for cripes sake, he looked like a school horse. His actual show pictures made him look 100 times better.

[Vero]

Cliffs Notes?

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=Dun Ciarain;3951591]
Doesn’t everyone (owner, rider, trainer) who signs a USEF-sanctioned show entry form implicitly or explicitly agree to be bound by the USEF rules?

Under your scenario, are GG’s owner’s are responsible for the rules violation even though they had no idea their horse had been mistakenly switched for another horse? Taken further, if their horse have been stolen and entered under a false name (they are still the legal owners), would they be responsible for a rules violation?[/QUOTE]

Sure, you sign the entry blank you have some responsibility. But the rule mentions the exhibitor as having responsibility and the exhibitor equals the owner not the rider.
Decision to hold a hearing, issue a penalty of some kind or decide on responsibility or mitigating circumstances is up to USEF.

[Moesha]

[QUOTE=equinelaw;3951604]

GG was sent as a GP horse to be sold as a GP horse. If he was showing in the childrens he must have had an opportunity to really fail to meet up to any expectations. I doubt they just unloaded him and decided to drop him down. That is worthy of notice and remark. If any such events or remarks were made I would assume his groom would know about them. In fact the horse that was sent, while adorable and lovable looking, was sort of a sad sack sweat looking horse that had no airs of GPness about him. And he certainly did not have the attitude that even a 2 minute You-tube clip showed GG had. Such inconsistencies would certainly raise my curiosity. Even to the level of WTF:confused: and enough to make me look around some.
.[/QUOTE]

Actually if the Jr/Ao jumpers was more suited to him…and it would be a better market for him than having juniors ride him in the Children’s at first is not that big of a deal, especially for a horse that could be difficult…being matched with a scopey/brave horse that can move up is very common…I agree that if the horse that ended up coming to them was so off base that certainly some alarm should have gone off…but like I posted earlier, the horse world is very dynamic, we have no idea what was going on and the details of the situation for the past six months…lots of horses are sent to trainers with all sorts of claims…and just because the horse was not winning does not mean it was a disaster…or that just because he looked a bit “sad” in a few photos that he did not have scope…does anyone have pictures of him from WEF in the Children’s jumpers??

[Moesha]

I found the real Kanye’s pictures on Anne Gittins site…showing as GG at WEF this winter…

He is adorable and very cute and a good jumper…there is a possibility he was thought to be the right horse…this changes a lot…I think…

http://www.annegittins.com/scripts/store/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=00003-WEF_2009--All_Files_Here/WEF09-files/3577-Good%20Guinness&image=PB9-1151.JPG&img=&tt=&tfile=PB9-1151.JPG

[Midge]

@equinelaw;3951604

I can’t do all that fancy quote stuff. Read your own post and the one before that where you scoffed at the idea a groom (with an accent) would care, know, or have time to look up the horse in his charge. Too busy. Wayy tooo many horses to know each one. Don’t have time for interest the horses they care for. Blah blah blah. . . And the part where such suggestions show a lack of mileage? I got miles, I just assumed you had info that everything had changed and there were new roads.

Quoting is dead easy. Start with [qoute], add the portion of the text you wish to quote and end with [/qoute] I missspelled quote so the quoting mechanism would appear.

Here is what I posted:

That the groom would somehow know he had the wrong horse and that they surfed the net looking for pictures of their charges, or as a friend said, "
I, too, laughed at the idea that the grooms would realize it was a different horse when the trainers didn’t know. I can just picture one of his guys walking up to Frank and saying, “Hey, Patron, we have the wrong caballo aqui.”

Nothing about no time, no interest, too many horses, not caring, not know how, etc. The point is, the grooms get their information about the horses from the trainer. Most likely, the horse came in, the trainer found out in extremely short order that it was not a GP horse and simply thought that, for the thousandth time, someone wanting to sell their horse misrepresented it upward.

Yes, pictures of his mouth were posted. It was remarkable in the way that is was something worth remarking on. Especially for a horse that we presume was not raised on the open range or something. It was remarkable enough that when a much less expensive horse that I saw had similar changes the Vet said cancer. That might elicit more then a “huh”.

I went back to look at the picture. It looks like a horse with a missing tooth, to me. But all we have to go on is a picture and while it looks like a missing tooth to me, it may look like cancer to you.

GG was sent as a GP horse to be sold as a GP horse. If he was showing in the childrens he must have had an opportunity to really fail to meet up to any expectations.
I doubt they just unloaded him and decided to drop him down. That is worthy of notice and remark. If any such events or remarks were made I would assume his groom would know about them. In fact the horse that was sent, while adorable and lovable looking, was sort of a sad sack sweat looking horse that had no airs of GPness about him. And he certainly did not have the attitude that even a 2 minute You-tube clip showed GG had. Such inconsistencies would certainly raise my curiosity. Even to the level of WTF:confused: and enough to make me look around some.

As I posted a couple times previously, the person who should have gone WTF was Frank, since it was failing at the high level on his dime. For some reason, however, he stuck him on the truck and took him to Florida, anyway. I think it’s far more likely that the grooms chatted among themselves that THAT horse certainly never did the GP. That’s what I would have done, but then I came as a cynic from a sales barn where, as I also posted previously, a whole lot of horses came through that were not as advertised.

Perhaps you are unaware that was my post you laughed at. But that is not so surprising if you do not even read you own posts.

I was unaware and the things about the teeth and the groom knowing it was the wrong horse stuck in my mind as WTF. It was not necessary for me to specifically point out who said them, just that they were said. To set your mind at ease, I DO read my own posts. You seem to have a tendency to read into them more than is there.

I do not have any idea what went on, why it went on, or if such mix ups are common, but in no way shape or form should they be. These are horses.

I agree.

[Beezer]

Midge, I am one of the people who said that the teeth would have/should have prompted a call to the previous trainer to ask about diet. Why? Because when I had a horse vetted who was missing one front tooth and another was misshapen, the first thing the vet said was that I’d have to watch the horse’s diet, never put him on grass and a host of other stuff – like stay away from cubes.

So when the picture of “Imposter Horse” was posted, the first thing I thought was, well, crap, I hope someone is watching what he’s eating or at least asked about, because that horse has some feed issues.

Frankly, there’s so much crap in the horse world, and H/Js in particular because of the money involved, that I trust no one. But hey, that’s just me – I know too many players in too many dramas. The truth is out there, we’re just never gonna know what it is. :lol:

[Midge]

My toothless horse struggled to graze, but did manage a bite or two. Interestingly, I had him on alfalfa cubes to help him out. My vet said the horse’s front teeth were used for cutting grass and would not affect his ability to chew at all. He said I just had to make sure the dentist kept the matching lower tooth well floated and since he was young I might need him out more often the first couple years.

[equinelaw]

[QUOTE=Moesha;3951708]
I found the real Kanye’s pictures on Anne Gittins site…showing as GG at WEF this winter…

He is adorable and very cute and a good jumper…there is a possibility he was thought to be the right horse…this changes a lot…I think…

http://www.annegittins.com/scripts/store/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=00003-WEF_2009--All_Files_Here/WEF09-files/3577-Good%20Guinness&image=PB9-1151.JPG&img=&tt=&tfile=PB9-1151.JPG[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that was posted earlier. He sure looks better showing then just standing there, doesn’t he? But he looks happy about it. GG looks aggressive about it.

[equinelaw]

[QUOTE=Midge;3951814]
My toothless horse struggled to graze, but did manage a bite or two. Interestingly, I had him on alfalfa cubes to help him out. My vet said the horse’s front teeth were used for cutting grass and would not affect his ability to chew at all. He said I just had to make sure the dentist kept the matching lower tooth well floated and since he was young I might need him out more often the first couple years.[/QUOTE]

I had an old cribber. No top front teeth at all! I do not think its a terrible thing, but the pictures showed a huge gap and lots of malocclusions. Kind of a mess, but I do not think horses get much grazing time on the circuit?

The pictures looked like a very old chain smoker with no dental plain and a love or fist fighting:)

I still want the horse, but just because he is not GG does not make hm worthless and in my budget.

[2bayboys]

The missing front teeth on imposter GG was just one of many things that made me scratch my head. I understand getting a sales horse in sight-unseen. But wouldn’t JUST ONE of these things make you pick up the phone and call the trainer who sent you the horse:

1. Teeth. Hey Patrick, you didn’t tell me your horse was missing some teeth. No big deal, but does he need anything special to keep his weight up?

2. Ability. Hey Patrick, you told me this horse has documented wins at GP, but you know, he seems to be struggling so I’ve dropped him to Children’s and he’s happy there. I can definitely get him sold as a Children’s horse but we need to discuss your price requirements.

3. Breed. Hey Patrick, you told me this horse is ISH. He’s got a Holsteiner brand! Did you send me the wrong horse?

[Midge]

According to the original post, there had been some back and forth about the horse’s lack of ability, so why didn’t Patrick

a) call Ari the Agent, who was at WEF and say, ‘Hey, Ari, go take a peek at my horse. They say he’s become a children’s jumper.’

And the cynic in my, if a trainer had called and said my good jumping horse sucked and gave me lowball offers, I’d think the trainer was trying to get something for nothing.

or b) Get me a video, Frank, and I’ll take a look.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=equinelaw;3951855]

I still want the horse, but just because he is not GG does not make hm worthless and in my budget.:)[/QUOTE]

Well, call McClain. That’s who he belongs to. :D:D:D (Please put me on the conference call, if you do!)

[Reds-n-Greys]

[QUOTE=equinelaw;3951855]

I still want the horse, but just because he is not GG does not make hm worthless and in my budget.:)[/QUOTE]

But will you change his name to Imposter? Please? :winkgrin:

[equinelaw]

I was kind of hoping for Rudolf, but I do think of him as Impostor Horse.

I would not call McClian. Doesn’t he still donate horses to that faux crappy rescue if he no longer wants them? No way I would pay that women $8,000 for a used Impostor horse.

Now if this whole thing really had been a conspiracy and they had switched a valuable horse for a dud, I would call him and offer to re-home the dud. But he ain’t no dud. He is still a very valuable horse and probably more suitable for most riders.

But ya know, if just the sight of him drives them crazy because of all the hoopla and they never want to lay eyes on him again, I will be happy to take him for free and never show him at rated shows. Ever.:winkgrin: I don’t care what his name is.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Dun Ciarain;3943814]
Everybody is happy?

GG’s owners sent the horse to be SOLD over the winter. Now they have the back - UNSOLD. Now it is a different market.

The Junior who was leasing the horse finds the horse she thought she had for the next six months is GONE!

The only people happy are the one’s who were repsonsible for not taking enough care in the first place.[/QUOTE]

You keep bringing this up and you’re absolutely right. Everybody should be lawyering up right quick…

[copper1]

What I think is really sad about all this is that BNT don’t have the time to check out each horse that comes to their barn enough to be able to identify and recognize issues like teeth and brands, or call and confirm things with the owner. Makes SNT seem a far better bet!