Good movers in western?

[Kyzteke]

I am not really a QH person, but I had a point in time where I was interested in the breed. During that time I attended the AQHA “World” in Ohio (I assume this competition is still on going?).

There was a drop dead GORGEGOUS palomino stallion there who was a son of Cutter Bill, the famous top cutting horse of YesterYear (who I was familiar with).

He was entered in a class (forgot the name) which was designed to illustrate the veritility of the QH. Their were 5 classes consisting (IIRC) WP, EP (which to my eye is the same thing in the QH world except they change tack), halter, running barrels and doing a reining pattern.

Well, this Cutter Bill son, who was heavy and oh, so VERY beautiful won the WP, EP and halter with ease.

But when it came to actually REALLY moving in a athletic and forward way he totally flopped. I mean, his barrel run & reining pattern were both actually embarrassing to watch.

And not just to me…the whole arena just sort of fell silent as the animal lumbered along…I could have run faster!!:eek:

That had to be almost 40 yrs ago and I still remember that. I was taking a break from working on the track (TBs), so the contrast really hit me. In fact, that might have been when I started to acquire my dislike of halter.

Later exposure to Arab “halter” just made it worse.

To me, the beautiful, free, FORWARD movement of a horse is the best part of the animal…

[Beverley]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8002131]
Beverly, I’m not sure why you are posting pictures from the 1970s and using a QH from that era as an example of a QH who can do it all. The WP horse of the 70’s has little in common with the WP horse of today. I’m not sure that an AQHA WP winner today has the ability to excel in multiple disciplines like an AQHA WP winner “back in the day” was capable of doing.[/QUOTE]

Well, someone asked for examples, and those were handy, and having been a continuous horse owner since the 60s, I have a pretty good idea of differences and similarities then and now. I’m quite sure a WP horse today could do it all, too. And having seen both current and back in the day, there were many of the same criticisms back then, even in the 60s, walking behind at the jog, four beat lope, head below the knees. If I had a mind to (but I don’t), I could train up my 10 yo cutting horse bred mare to be competitive in WP. Mostly she trail rides and plays with cattle occasionally, one of these days I’ll take her foxhunting, but I can even now just playing in the arena get the wp jog and lope going. Really, it’s just not very hard to teach a horse that has ‘only’ known wp to move out, any horse can learn new tricks and skills.

[Beverley]

@craz4crtrs;8002172

Somehow qh breeding changed to accommodate an “ideal” but not an all around horse. There are some still out there. My mare is not a show horse, but she is versatile dressage or western, a dragon on a cow, a real jog plus a mile eating long trot or dressage working trot and a walk that covers the ground. And oh my is she fast in the pasture.

I think what it is is that those interested in showing in the past few decades came into it desiring to specialize. So the market responded. Witness the ridiculous halter and ‘performance halter’ diversion (form for halter is no longer linked to function). It’s not different than the evolution on the English world side IMO- back in the day, folks just did everything on their horses, these days, even within Pony Club, people can choose to specialize, and do.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Beverley;8002196]
Well, someone asked for examples, and those were handy, and having been a continuous horse owner since the 60s, I have a pretty good idea of differences and similarities then and now. I’m quite sure a WP horse today could do it all, too. And having seen both current and back in the day, there were many of the same criticisms back then, even in the 60s, walking behind at the jog, four beat lope, head below the knees. If I had a mind to (but I don’t), I could train up my 10 yo cutting horse bred mare to be competitive in WP. Mostly she trail rides and plays with cattle occasionally, one of these days I’ll take her foxhunting, but I can even now just playing in the arena get the wp jog and lope going. Really, it’s just not very hard to teach a horse that has ‘only’ known wp to move out, any horse can learn new tricks and skills.[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, I would have to see videos of a horse winning at WP (or even placing in the top 3) TODAY and then seeing that same horse doing something that really required moving out…like running a barrel pattern or foxhunting (not hill topping, I’m talking about actually running/jumping).

Won’t believe it till I see it…because that Cutter Bill son tried to demonstrate this and failed miserably…and that was way back when.

[Rusty15]

I don’t ride pleasure horses. The extremely slow and unnatural paces are uncomfortable to watch. I’m now a mounted shooter but have ridden dressage, huntseat, and reining/pleasure horses in the past. When I am looking for a horse, I look for one who is even and correct in his movements as well as comfortable to ride. I do not need or necessarily want the powerful, uphill movement of a dressage horse, or the extremely long and flat HUS movement, nor do I desire a slow wp style mover. A horse with a straight, even stride and adjustability in it is ALWAYS important, but then each discipline has its own emphasis.

[Rusty15]

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999050]
the WP horses all share a stiffness and rigidity in front of the shoulders that is just depressing. They have collectively been hammered into thou shalt not show any life. bumpbumpbumpBUMP get your head back down. I recall the delightful Cleve Wells talking about giving his show horses a ‘day off’ and a ride out on the trails. He was insistent that they never, EVER, be given any real freedom undersaddle - they had by God better maintain that frame regardless. it was just depressing to read. If you want a robot, ride a Vespa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw

How can anyone defend anything they see in that entire video? hammer hammer hammer. small wonder they do tails- they have to.

I grew up on QHs, still adore them. But WP is a sick mess and has been since the late 70s/early 80s. they’ve bred these machines that want to go low and slow, and that ‘helps’ but in the long run, you’ll eventually trash their hocks and their minds. I just feel sorry for all of them.[/QUOTE]

This video is an excellent example of why people have issues with western pleasure. I find it even worse than rolker in the dressage world. In similar warmup ring videos you’ll probably see a handful of horses ridden in a deep rollkur, but as you can see here darn near EVERY horse had its head cranked to its chest. And the draw reins. The only people I’ve ever seen stupid or crazy enough to ride in nothing but draw reins are wp people. I have a group of ladies at my barn that are into it. They do it too. Constant bumping and yanking, riding w/ draw reins. If the horses moved any slower they’d be going backwards! None of them seem to be happy horses either. In my case there are 4 or 5 of them. Barn staff and farrier hate dealing with them. The horses seem very grumpy under saddle and in the barn. On the rare occasion they get turned out they don’t run like normal horses. One got excited and took of doing a sorta bunny hoppy thing all around the pasture. At first I thought it was funny but I then realized that I don’t think he could/knew how to use his shoulders and actually extend his stride. It’s sad.

[zipperfoot]

Some quarter horses really can “do it all.”

From the AQHA Handbook:

(a) The AQHA Supreme Champion honor will be awarded to any stallion, mare or gelding that meets the following requirements:

(1) Has earned two official Speed Index Ratings of 90 or higher (AAA);

(2) Has won a total of 40 points in recognized halter/ performance halter and performance classes at five or more shows and under five or more different judges approved by AQHA or in races recognized by AQHA; and

(A) A minimum of 15 of these points must be earned in halter/performance halter classes, with a minimum of eight of the points being earned during or after the horse’s 2-year-old year. At least two Grand Championships, with five or more horses in the sex division, must have been earned under two different judges, with at least one of them being earned on or after the horse’s 2-year-old year.

(B) At least 20 of those points must have been won in performance events at AQHA–approved shows or in races with at least eight of the 20 performance points earned in one or more of the following events:
Reining Working Cow Horse
Western Pleasure Green Western Pleasure
Western Riding Green Western Riding
Jumping Green Working Hunter
Working Hunter Hunter Hack
Hunter Under Saddle Green Hunter Under Saddle

And with at least eight of the 20 performance points earned in one or more of the following events:
Tie-down Roping Dally Team Roping-Heading
Cutting Dally Team Roping-Heeling

Only about 50 horses have been named Supreme Champions since the award was introduced in the 60s. Link to info about Kid Meyers, the first one: http://horsesonly.com/pedpower/supreme/kid-meyers.htm

[propspony]

This is one of the top Western Pleasure stallions currently standing, Huntin For Chocolate. He was also a multiple world champion in both WP and western riding.

This is not his “professional” video, he recently changed the farm he was standing at, and they haven’t released his new video, but THIS is the video that convinced me to breed to him. It shows him moving at liberty, I took one look at that trot and went bingo! The footage of him loping around the warm-up pen doing lead changes double bareback, may have been a factor as well.

I wish some of his show footage was up, because he was considered to be a 10 mover while showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8bh5b9dqIU

and the resulting filly at about 15-20 rides under saddle:
http://youtu.be/t_Ns3IJ1SDo

That said, his TB line goes back to Tudor Minstrel, the same line that produced Laurie’s Crusador, so… that was also a bonus. (I adore that line)

[downen]

@propspony;8014563

This is one of the top Western Pleasure stallions currently standing, Huntin For Chocolate. He was also a multiple world champion in both WP and western riding.

This is not his “professional” video, he recently changed the farm he was standing at, and they haven’t released his new video, but THIS is the video that convinced me to breed to him. It shows him moving at liberty, I took one look at that trot and went bingo! The footage of him loping around the warm-up pen doing lead changes double bareback, may have been a factor as well.

I wish some of his show footage was up, because he was considered to be a 10 mover while showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8bh5b9dqIU

Based on that bareback video, THAT looks like a WP horse that is truly a pleasure to ride!

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Rusty15;8013914]
This video is an excellent example of why people have issues with western pleasure. I find it even worse than rolker in the dressage world. In similar warmup ring videos you’ll probably see a handful of horses ridden in a deep rollkur, but as you can see here darn near EVERY horse had its head cranked to its chest. And the draw reins. The only people I’ve ever seen stupid or crazy enough to ride in nothing but draw reins are wp people. I have a group of ladies at my barn that are into it. They do it too. Constant bumping and yanking, riding w/ draw reins. If the horses moved any slower they’d be going backwards! None of them seem to be happy horses either. In my case there are 4 or 5 of them. Barn staff and farrier hate dealing with them. The horses seem very grumpy under saddle and in the barn. On the rare occasion they get turned out they don’t run like normal horses. One got excited and took of doing a sorta bunny hoppy thing all around the pasture. At first I thought it was funny but I then realized that I don’t think he could/knew how to use his shoulders and actually extend his stride. It’s sad.[/QUOTE]

Yep this one video is a fair representation of each and every horse and rider in the wp world.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=propspony;8014563]
This is one of the top Western Pleasure stallions currently standing, Huntin For Chocolate. He was also a multiple world champion in both WP and western riding.

This is not his “professional” video, he recently changed the farm he was standing at, and they haven’t released his new video, but THIS is the video that convinced me to breed to him. It shows him moving at liberty, I took one look at that trot and went bingo! The footage of him loping around the warm-up pen doing lead changes double bareback, may have been a factor as well.

I wish some of his show footage was up, because he was considered to be a 10 mover while showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8bh5b9dqIU

and the resulting filly at about 15-20 rides under saddle:
http://youtu.be/t_Ns3IJ1SDo

That said, his TB line goes back to Tudor Minstrel, the same line that produced Laurie’s Crusador, so… that was also a bonus. (I adore that line)[/QUOTE]

Or is it this video that fairly represents the western pleasure horse??? The comments who are firmly in the opinion that all wp horses are intimidated and crippled also admit to not knowing much or having much experience in the discipline. And you do need to actually spend time riding these horses to know what to look for when watching a video. Honestly, they are so much better trained and better broke than any hunter/jumper that I’ve ever known. These horses do tons more advanced level flat work than the typical h/j, and on a daily basis.

[PeanutButterPony]

also admit to not knowing much or having much experience in the discipline.

bull****. You don’t know my history nor did I admit I have little experience. I am both educated and critical of the modern WP horse.

[propspony]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8014896]
Or is it this video that fairly represents the western pleasure horse??? [/QUOTE]

Yeah, he’s pretty darn cool. I wish the show video was still up, since he was pretty much that same soft, quiet beautiful ride in the show pen as well. Something his daughter definitely inherited.

This was my second choice for my mare: “The Krymsun Kruzer” If you watch the video long enough, you will see that he shows that same soft flowing lope (his jog to me is a bit meh) but you will also see that he goes on to get his Superiors in hunter under saddle, western riding, trail, horsemanship, pleasure driving AND working hunter as well, once he was finished with western pleasure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ5CB9mdtJk

He’s a much younger stallion, I think his first crops might be coming three this year.

[Buddy0227]

Now that’s a nice horse !!

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=propspony;8014563]
This is one of the top Western Pleasure stallions currently standing, Huntin For Chocolate. He was also a multiple world champion in both WP and western riding. [/QUOTE]

What is the difference between WP & “western riding?”

And, just for fun, here is a WB with only 20 rides
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK-CVm0iHWQ

[propspony]

Western riding is a pattern class, where the horse must precisely execute multiple flying lead changes. Because of that, the lope tends to be more forward.

http://services2.aqha.com/iphonedev/www/sections/sectionIV/rules/images/WESTERN_RIDING_PATTERN_I.jpg

Legend Harley D Zip in his open last western riding class, bridleless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpU8S7ZfWAE

Yep. The two horses are definitely apples and oranges. I’m just so proud of my girl I could burst. I’m a 36 year old amateur that hasn’t had to start a horse since I started her mother 18 years ago, and I’ve had moments where I’m like “What was I THINKING???” but, I’ve done absolutely everything with her, with very minimal help, and she’s just been such a joy to work with!!!

My back can’t handle those huge WB gaits, I’m loving my little QH girl.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8015604]
And, just for fun, here is a WB with only 20 rides
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK-CVm0iHWQ[/QUOTE]

What is this showing? I mean, are you comparing this to a WP horse in some way?

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=S1969;8015713]

What is this showing? I mean, are you comparing this to a WP horse in some way?[/QUOTE]

Well, propspony posted a video of her QH after 15-20 rides, so I’d say the WB after 20 rides was for comparison purposes. Two different breeds, two different sets of expectations. [shrug]

Your girl is lovely, propspony. I hurt my back in a fall 2 years ago and I’m still having trouble handling my QH’s big trot. But the mule, mmmm, smooth as silk. Someone once described riding him as being like sitting in a big, overstuffed easy chair.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8015745]
Well, propspony posted a video of her QH after 15-20 rides, so I’d say the WB after 20 rides was for comparison purposes. Two different breeds, two different sets of expectations. [shrug][/QUOTE]

Oh.

My APHA mare has been (and could be) ridden for years and will never move like that WB. My WB does not move anything like my paint mare. Two totally different examples of conformation.

[propspony]

@NoSuchPerson;8015745

Well, propspony posted a video of her QH after 15-20 rides, so I’d say the WB after 20 rides was for comparison purposes. Two different breeds, two different sets of expectations. [shrug]

That’s the reason I’m hoping for at least. Otherwise, she just pointed and laughed at my little baby pon-pon, and them are fighting words (flips hat around puts on the brass knuckles, and makes her MEAN face.) LOLOLOL!!!

Yeah, they’re completely different horses. Lyric and I will do many things in our lives together, but she will never be a fancy purpose-bred dressage warmblood (for which my body is eternally grateful) and I will never be a professional dressage trainer.

Lyric was bred specifically to do the AQHA over fences classes, with the hopes of getting a horse that I could do some all-around things on. (I freaking LOVE Showmanship, and it is my super secret dream to get to do western riding some day in the far off future) She turned out to get a bit more of her sire’s “western” genes (HFC) than her mama’s “hunter” genes, but as I grow older, I’m not necessarily finding that to be a bad thing.