Half Arabian western pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPbnBsx_a44
Arabian Western Pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O5pd2rEanI
Can you find an Arabian wp horse that is not BTV? And isn’t getting snatched behind the judges back? There has to be better. On the second video ff to 3:19 bam BAM bam. It’s all about the stupid nose…get that sucked back in!
I have owned quarter horses for 50 years, but ya know, a good Morgan is hard to beat in or out of the arena. I was also privileged to have a ride on the Arabian stallion Surf in my youth. Good horses are not breed specific.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999310]
Then your horse is exceptional, and I applaud your success.[/QUOTE]
Thanks!!!
[QUOTE=Flash44;7999306]
My wp horse also does trail, horsemanship, obstacle courses and judged pleasure rides. The correct, humane wp training was the foundation of her success in the other areas.[/QUOTE]
Mine were always multi-event as well, wp, equitation, trail, reining, western riding, the qh English events when they started (though I’ve always considered them to be um, interesting, English events with rules written by western discipline experts), and occasionally the speed events. One wp horse went on to be my foxhunter for 20 years, ages 6-26.
WP is in fact a good foundation for many, many things, including hunting or otherwise riding cross country with a group of horses. In the confines of an arena your horse learns to pass, be passed, and not react to horses inches away. I don’t show my current two, but I did in their youth take advantage of local schooling shows for just that purpose, schooling for manners in a group.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999855]
Can you find an Arabian wp horse that is not BTV? And isn’t getting snatched behind the judges back? There has to be better. On the second video ff to 3:19 bam BAM bam. It’s all about the stupid nose…get that sucked back in![/QUOTE]
I couldn’t find any recent video of Razcal Bey, but he’s a great example.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999794]
OK, here’s an Arabian…
http://youtu.be/0DFMiKkpig0[/QUOTE]
Sheila Varian is probably the top breeder of working western Arabs in the USA. She is a master at the traditional “vaquero” style of training & riding a “bridle horse”, considered the pinnacle of “western” style.
A good bridle horse does not move much differently than a dressage horse, until the training gets more advanced. Obviously the degree of contact is different, but the ideal “western” horse (if you are talking about an actual western WORKING horse), moves in a free, forward style with 3 pure gaits. The goal is just the same as dressage: teach the horse to work off their hindquarters in an athletic manner.
WP is a corruption of Nature, as any horse that moved like that in the wild would be eaten and any horse that moved like that on a ranch would be useless, since a person can walk faster (also the horse obviously lacks the nimbleness to do ranch work).
BTW, regarding the WP walk: one very well known rancher says he likes “a horse who walks fast enough to bounce the reins”…otherwise you can’t cover much ground.
Again, when someone asks about Western vs English, you have to specify which discipline & breed, because there is alot of variation – much of it manufactured by people who invent the classes.
Meanwhile, the qualities sought in WORKING western is aimed towards getting the job done.
I don’t think there is a “working English” :winkgrin:…maybe driving?
Nice post, Kyztke.
I can’t think of any current “working English,” either. Sure, the various disciplines mostly hark back to a time when there was a utilitarian function for it, but not so much today.
Interesting question though. In the US, what equines still “work” for a living, i.e. perform some job that isn’t about riding or driving as a sport?
Pack horses/mules/burros
Working ranch horses
Carriage/wagon/sleigh pullers
Logging using horses/mules (not much of this, but still some, I think)
Others?
not ultilitarian, but still doing a “job” as opposed to showing - fox hunters.
1 Like
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8001274]
Nice post, Kyztke.
I can’t think of any current “working English,” either. Sure, the various disciplines mostly hark back to a time when there was a utilitarian function for it, but not so much today.
Interesting question though. In the US, what equines still “work” for a living, i.e. perform some job that isn’t about riding or driving as a sport?
Pack horses/mules/burros
Working ranch horses
Carriage/wagon/sleigh pullers
Logging using horses/mules (not much of this, but still some, I think)
Others?[/QUOTE]
Actually, this is sort of OT, but I consider “show horses” to have to work for a living, but it is in a manufactured environment. The horse is such an amazing animal (like the dog), that humans have created all sorts of false “ideals” of perfection for all these various classes.
I mean, in terms of movement, a Big Lick TW and a WP QH could not be more different, could they? Yet they are both horses.
Ditto “good” movement for a dressage horse and a hunter…although their difference is not so extreme.
Same as “trail”. Western trail classes are again a made up thing…if you take a horse or mule out into the back country for actual trail riding, they don’t move like that.
In horses, as in so many things, there is a marked difference between Fashion & Function.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8001274]
I can’t think of any current “working English,” either. Sure, the various disciplines mostly hark back to a time when there was a utilitarian function for it, but not so much today.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes at all breed open shows you will still see Hunter Hack, Road Hack or Bridle Path Hack which, IMO, are the closest to working English you can get.
Well, 200+ yrs ago many of the movements in modern dressage classes were used in cavalry maneuvers. And all the royal dudes began to stylize them into movement for movement’s sake.
Because the menages they worked in were quite small, horses were taught to move in super collected frames.
So there is a vast difference between the movement/conformation desired by people who still use equines for a working function and those who use them in an artificial environment like a horse show class.
As far as ideal “working” western horses, I think if you want to see the closest thing to natural movement, you need to watch actual working western classes.
Here is a class that I’ve never heard of, but apparently it is a “thing”. If you watch this horse, he is a very natural mover.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uexLqB80TFc
There really isn’t such a thing in English, except maybe driving.
BTW, in the less developed countries equids are still used extensively for function – pulling & being ridden mostly. And you will not find a beautiful horse/donkey in the group…just very hardy, hardworking beasts.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8001550]
Well, 200+ yrs ago many of the movements in modern dressage classes were used in cavalry maneuvers. And all the royal dudes began to stylize them into movement for movement’s sake.
Because the menages they worked in were quite small, horses were taught to move in super collected frames.
So there is a vast difference between the movement/conformation desired by people who still use equines for a working function and those who use them in an artificial environment like a horse show class.
As far as ideal “working” western horses, I think if you want to see the closest thing to natural movement, you need to watch actual working western classes.
Here is a class that I’ve never heard of, but apparently it is a “thing”. If you watch this horse, he is a very natural mover.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uexLqB80TFc
There really isn’t such a thing in English, except maybe driving.
BTW, in the less developed countries equids are still used extensively for function – pulling & being ridden mostly. And you will not find a beautiful horse/donkey in the group…just very hardy, hardworking beasts.[/QUOTE]
This is what I like. Behind the verticals a couple of times, but he rider pushed him forward. The horse is looking where he is going, will stretch down…
Very cool.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999050]
the WP horses all share a stiffness and rigidity in front of the shoulders that is just depressing. They have collectively been hammered into thou shalt not show any life. bumpbumpbumpBUMP get your head back down. I recall the delightful Cleve Wells talking about giving his show horses a ‘day off’ and a ride out on the trails. He was insistent that they never, EVER, be given any real freedom undersaddle - they had by God better maintain that frame regardless. it was just depressing to read. If you want a robot, ride a Vespa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw
How can anyone defend anything they see in that entire video? hammer hammer hammer. small wonder they do tails- they have to.
I grew up on QHs, still adore them. But WP is a sick mess and has been since the late 70s/early 80s. they’ve bred these machines that want to go low and slow, and that ‘helps’ but in the long run, you’ll eventually trash their hocks and their minds. I just feel sorry for all of them.[/QUOTE]
I’ve bred/raised multiple world champions in WP,WR,Trail and horsemanship. Of the horses that I still owned I had a Superior Pleasure,APHA CH who was also the leading paint horse in the state for halter one year, WP the other. I used him for foxhunting and novice eventing when we quit showing. I have another who I just lost to lymphoma. He also foxhunted and trail rode, plus taught lots of people how to ride. His mother is an awesome broodmare and I pulled her out of the pasture after having babies for 8 years for her first ever foxhunt. With my beginner brother on board.
Another filly who I sold and she won the world in lunge line won a bunch in gymkhana classes at her next world show and is a leading youth horse.
Pleasure horses started and bred right can do so much. Mine have never been beaten, hammered on or anything else abusive for that matter. They are just bred to move slowly and correctly. (for WP) They have head down, slow legs in the pasture as babies.
Still quite a few horses used for logging in areas where mechanized equipment can’t or shouldn’t go. Also horses still used for plowing, haying, etc, not just by the Amish, I see farms around here that use them to.
There are police horses too. And the military has been using horses of necessity in Afghanistan. And therapy/rehab horses.
[QUOTE=Doctracy;8001684]
I’ve bred/raised multiple world champions in WP,WR,Trail and horsemanship. Of the horses that I still owned I had a Superior Pleasure,APHA CH who was also the leading paint horse in the state for halter one year, WP the other. I used him for foxhunting and novice eventing when we quit showing. I have another who I just lost to lymphoma. He also foxhunted and trail rode, plus taught lots of people how to ride. His mother is an awesome broodmare and I pulled her out of the pasture after having babies for 8 years for her first ever foxhunt. With my beginner brother on board.
Another filly who I sold and she won the world in lunge line won a bunch in gymkhana classes at her next world show and is a leading youth horse.
Pleasure horses started and bred right can do so much. Mine have never been beaten, hammered on or anything else abusive for that matter. They are just bred to move slowly and correctly. (for WP) They have head down, slow legs in the pasture as babies.[/QUOTE]
I guess I just can’t imagine a successful, winning WP horse keeping up with the hounds & jumping cross country. When were your horses winning?
Do you have any video of them jumping cross country? When they cantered cross country, did they do that weird 4 beat thing that is called a “lope” in WP classes, or did they do an actual 3 beat canter or a gallop?
I am asking seriously, because I’m curious to know of that lope-thing is a gait that is TAUGHT or do the horses naturally move that way? And if it’s taught, why would someone turn a 3 beat gait into a 4 beat gait? I mean, what is the advantage.
Seriously.
I can’t speak for Doctracy who’s accomplished far more than me in the show arena, but here is one of mine after a wp win with my sister in the early 70s:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickandLisa.jpg.html?o=1
This could be his first hunt, '73-74 season:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/BevNickBCH_SBC74.jpg.html?o=6
And competing for fast time over a 4 mile course at the Old Dominion Hunt Pair Race (partner was on a tb, and yes we did beat pairs that included winning steeplechase horses, because my guy did not have to slow down in trappy going, I just had to hang on!):
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickODHpairrace.jpg.html?o=0
I will say that the first time I hunted this horse (and yes, we jumped) his reaction was, it’s about TIME I got to do something fun. My mare who competed in all things western had much the same reaction when she went foxhunting for the first time, at age 26, packing my 4 yo son.
Even when you are competing wp, your horse will naturally have more pace when you are going down the trail- or just working them in a pasture for that matter. In the 90s when I moved to Utah and didn’t have ready access to hunting, I showed the qh I had whipped in off of back in Virginia, knowing he had previously done wp (and 2nd level dressage). Merely putting the western tack on his back, I found, was enough of a suggestion that we should go low and slow, no schooling really required. I have pix somewhere but not handy just now.
[QUOTE=Beverley;8001841]
I can’t speak for Doctracy who’s accomplished far more than me in the show arena, but here is one of mine after a wp win with my sister in the early 70s:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickandLisa.jpg.html?o=1
This could be his first hunt, '73-74 season:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/BevNickBCH_SBC74.jpg.html?o=6
And competing for fast time over a 4 mile course at the Old Dominion Hunt Pair Race (partner was on a tb, and yes we did beat pairs that included winning steeplechase horses, because my guy did not have to slow down in trappy going, I just had to hang on!):
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickODHpairrace.jpg.html?o=0
I will say that the first time I hunted this horse (and yes, we jumped) his reaction was, it’s about TIME I got to do something fun. My mare who competed in all things western had much the same reaction when she went foxhunting for the first time, at age 26, packing my 4 yo son.
Even when you are competing wp, your horse will naturally have more pace when you are going down the trail- or just working them in a pasture for that matter. In the 90s when I moved to Utah and didn’t have ready access to hunting, I showed the qh I had whipped in off of back in Virginia, knowing he had previously done wp (and 2nd level dressage). Merely putting the western tack on his back, I found, was enough of a suggestion that we should go low and slow, no schooling really required. I have pix somewhere but not handy just now.[/QUOTE]
Definitely looks like an athletic horse. I am not a student of WP and didn’t see my first WP class till about 10 yrs ago (big ick to me).
But from what I gather on this board & others, the “style” that wins in WP classes these days is dramatically different than “in the old days.”
Can anyone tell me when the style started to change and get so weird and mannered? Don’t suppose you have any old video/film of WP in the '70’s?
It’s not the look of the horse that seems to have changed so dramatically, it’s that extremely odd, un-natural way of moving.
Beverly, I’m not sure why you are posting pictures from the 1970s and using a QH from that era as an example of a QH who can do it all. The WP horse of the 70’s has little in common with the WP horse of today. I’m not sure that an AQHA WP winner today has the ability to excel in multiple disciplines like an AQHA WP winner “back in the day” was capable of doing.
[QUOTE=Beverley;8001841]
I can’t speak for Doctracy who’s accomplished far more than me in the show arena, but here is one of mine after a wp win with my sister in the early 70s:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickandLisa.jpg.html?o=1
This could be his first hunt, '73-74 season:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/BevNickBCH_SBC74.jpg.html?o=6
And competing for fast time over a 4 mile course at the Old Dominion Hunt Pair Race (partner was on a tb, and yes we did beat pairs that included winning steeplechase horses, because my guy did not have to slow down in trappy going, I just had to hang on!):
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickODHpairrace.jpg.html?o=0
I will say that the first time I hunted this horse (and yes, we jumped) his reaction was, it’s about TIME I got to do something fun. My mare who competed in all things western had much the same reaction when she went foxhunting for the first time, at age 26, packing my 4 yo son.
Even when you are competing wp, your horse will naturally have more pace when you are going down the trail- or just working them in a pasture for that matter. In the 90s when I moved to Utah and didn’t have ready access to hunting, I showed the qh I had whipped in off of back in Virginia, knowing he had previously done wp (and 2nd level dressage). Merely putting the western tack on his back, I found, was enough of a suggestion that we should go low and slow, no schooling really required. I have pix somewhere but not handy just now.[/QUOTE]
This is what a qh was bred to do. Run a race, chase a cow, carry us whatever discipline we want to pursue and then put a child on.
Somehow qh breeding changed to accommodate an “ideal” but not an all around horse. There are some still out there. My mare is not a show horse, but she is versatile dressage or western, a dragon on a cow, a real jog plus a mile eating long trot or dressage working trot and a walk that covers the ground. And oh my is she fast in the pasture.
Could she be a show horse? Yes, she could do hunter classes, ranch classes for sure. We do trail obstacles and ride in the mountains. At 56, I do not want to show in anything, but she could. Except WP, too big a mover.
They do not have to have a uber low headset nor behind the vertical to be someone’s idea of a good mover. I still stand by my original comment, if the horse is a nice mover, they will look good doing anything.
