a 2 beat diaganol gait is still expected? some look like they 4 beat at the jog?
thanks
Sherian, if you go down to the “peanut roller haters” discussion, you will see some discussion of this. I’m pretty sure that is the discussion in which I posted links to two gait analysis studies that looked at this issue.
Edited to add that there’s probably a way to find that post using the search function and the key words “gait analysis.”
thanks - I’ll look there. I usually stay away from threads called peanut roller as they generally degenerate into a massive cat fight which while entertaining tend not to be a good educational resource.
[QUOTE=sherian;7997934]
thanks - I’ll look there. I usually stay away from threads called peanut roller as they generally degenerate into a massive cat fight which while entertaining tend not to be a good educational resource.[/QUOTE]
Well, there is plenty of cat fighting there, but some good discussion, as well, I think.
Edited to add, oops. Sorry. I looked and that isn’t the right discussion. It was the one titled “please explain the western please quarter horse peanut roll.” (Yes, the typo is in the title.)
These are the links I was talking about:
http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/2421/2010.10.15%20-%20Final.pdf?sequence=2
http://www.wageningenacademic.com/_clientfiles/CEP/S1478061507811467a.pdf
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7996227]
the grey you posted on page 1, though ducking behind the bit consistently, is a nice mover.
But that’s not a western horse.
This is the Western forum and we’re talking about soft jogs and lopes. There is a difference.
I could show you a nice moving racking horse but that wouldn’t answer the question either, would it?[/QUOTE]
I love how western horses go. That horse is a western horse even if his discipline of choice is now dressage. He was bred for western disciplines. I can appreciate a nice western bred horse better than anybody – our best horse was a western horse. But that doesn’t mean I have to appreciate the crippling movement of a WP bred horse.
I am taking my life in my hands here as I am a total outsider with limited experience of Western horsemanship (other than a few weeks of trail riding in various parts of the world) but to me the really odd part of WP is how SLOW it is. The same style of riding seems to be found in Western working disciplines (I am open to education on this point) but the horse is being asked to move forward and therefore is allowed to move ‘better’ in my English eyes.
The thing I love about WP is the “hang time” that the really greats have. It’s like they are on a slow motion video. The core strength required to achieve this lift is truly incredible. And, you can’t just take the forward impulse and go to upward impulse because that creates undesirable knee action. (Think piaffe).
The stride must be long, very slow, no upward knee action and hocks tracking well underneath the horse.
VS are Good is a truly great mare, especially in Western Riding. Lazy Loper and Good Machine are a couple of my favorites.
[QUOTE=Doctracy;7998908]
The thing I love about WP is the “hang time” that the really greats have. It’s like they are on a slow motion video. The core strength required to achieve this lift is truly incredible. And, you can’t just take the forward impulse and go to upward impulse because that creates undesirable knee action. (Think piaffe).
The stride must be long, very slow, no upward knee action and hocks tracking well underneath the horse.
VS are Good is a truly great mare, especially in Western Riding. Lazy Loper and Good Machine are a couple of my favorites.[/QUOTE]
You just hit the nail on the head. A truly great mover who can maintain that quality of gait and slow it down is what wins, because going slow is higher in difficulty than moving out. For those that do not understand wp - The KEY is MAINTAINING THE QUALITY OF GAIT. The horse that is a 9 mover and goes slower than a horse that is a 10 mover will still not beat the 10 mover because quality is the #1 most important criteria. If you have not read the rule book and your eye is uneducated, you will not be able to see this, and they will all look the same to you and you will continue to scratch your head.
I’ve ridden everything from h/j to racing to trails to wp and hands down, the properly trained wp horse is the most awesome and relaxing and pleasurable ride out there.
Sorry, I just don’t see that “long” stride…at all. I see short choppy strides that look incredibly uncomfortable to ride. At least they’re getting away from the awful 4-beat lopes, which is good. I’ve been a big fan of QHs for a long time, but I can hardly watch western pleasure.
the WP horses all share a stiffness and rigidity in front of the shoulders that is just depressing. They have collectively been hammered into thou shalt not show any life. bumpbumpbumpBUMP get your head back down. I recall the delightful Cleve Wells talking about giving his show horses a ‘day off’ and a ride out on the trails. He was insistent that they never, EVER, be given any real freedom undersaddle - they had by God better maintain that frame regardless. it was just depressing to read. If you want a robot, ride a Vespa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw
How can anyone defend anything they see in that entire video? hammer hammer hammer. small wonder they do tails- they have to.
I grew up on QHs, still adore them. But WP is a sick mess and has been since the late 70s/early 80s. they’ve bred these machines that want to go low and slow, and that ‘helps’ but in the long run, you’ll eventually trash their hocks and their minds. I just feel sorry for all of them.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999050]
the WP horses all share a stiffness and rigidity in front of the shoulders that is just depressing. They have collectively been hammered into thou shalt not show any life. bumpbumpbumpBUMP get your head back down. I recall the delightful Cleve Wells talking about giving his show horses a ‘day off’ and a ride out on the trails. He was insistent that they never, EVER, be given any real freedom undersaddle - they had by God better maintain that frame regardless. it was just depressing to read. If you want a robot, ride a Vespa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw
How can anyone defend anything they see in that entire video? hammer hammer hammer. small wonder they do tails- they have to.
I grew up on QHs, still adore them. But WP is a sick mess and has been since the late 70s/early 80s. they’ve bred these machines that want to go low and slow, and that ‘helps’ but in the long run, you’ll eventually trash their hocks and their minds. I just feel sorry for all of them.[/QUOTE]
So you are going to lump all wp horses and riders into that one video?
Look at this video and let’s say the same thing about dressage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYAI8a0IVFU
Totilas looks very happy and working comfortably here! At times he is 45 degrees BEHIND the vertical!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRyo8jgMkek
How about this demonstration of good hands at the Olympic level?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF6U4MQpcV0
There are good and bad in all discplines, and painting an entire discipline with the “bad” brush is pretty narrow minded.
You found some bad apples in Dressage, sadly it is easy to do and I agree it’s a real issue.
Do you similarly acknowledge that WP has issues?
Do you think that pen full of horses in a WP warm up looks like a systemic issue? as in- everyone in that pen is hammering on their horse?
See, I don’t think Dressage has systemic issues- there are some barbaric trainers, you bet. But I believe they are the exception, not the rule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR2lqrSHMco#t=51
a pleasant warm up-
http://youtu.be/a47L1jDuXpw
a nice video on warming up - notice the freedom and looseness in the horse’s forehand- no bracing. the ideal of WP creates abs of steel in the horse, you bet- but that tension and lift also compromises the relaxation and freedom of a true walk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dlC0Npvmcc
I find the goal itself of WP is diminishing to the horse…whereas the goals of dressage celebrate and literally build up the horse. WP and Big Lick are in the same ‘all about the people and the prizes’ bucket for me. They are both disciplines I just cannot get behind and support. I’m sorry, but it’s my opinion and my experience.
[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;7999210]
I find the goal itself of WP is diminishing to the horse…whereas the goals of dressage celebrate and literally build up the horse. WP and Big Lick are in the same ‘all about the people and the prizes’ bucket for me. They are both disciplines I just cannot get behind and support. I’m sorry, but it’s my opinion and my experience.[/QUOTE]
Here is a much better explanation than I could ever give:
http://www.horsechannel.com/western-...e-judging.aspx
He very clearly states that the wp class is a stepping stone to other classes. My wp horse also does trail, horsemanship, obstacle courses and judged pleasure rides. The correct, humane wp training was the foundation of her success in the other areas.
Then your horse is exceptional, and I applaud your success.
I agree about the consistently but really never thought much it until I found these three photos of the horse with three different riders at the same show(two as western pleasure one under hunter tack)
The pictures you posted appear to have been taken at a Morgan show. I admit I’m not that familiar with what wins at Morgan shows, but my impression is that Morgan WP is apples to the oranges of AQHA WP.
Is that an accurate impression or am I confused? Because if it is, it seems to me that nothing that has been said about AQHA WP applies to Morgan WP.
Edited to say that when I re-read this I thought it might have come out a little snarky, like I was saying that clanter shouldn’t have posted Morgan pics in a WP discussion. That is not what I meant. I am just curious about the differences in breed standard for WP, if they exist.
the horse 
ok put a few back
The Morgan western pleasure is more upheaded and balanced
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/lastscan-2.jpg)
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/FoxieGoldCupJrMareChamp1991-2.jpg)
but could easily transition into hunter (working trail class here)
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/trail-1.jpg)
on the flat here
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/hunterpleasure.jpg)
or over fences
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/hunterOF.jpg)
then back to western…but as a competitive trail horse
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/CTR.jpg)
then back to western pleasure kid’s horse
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/AimeeandTheFox.jpg)
no, please- put them back- love a good Morgan
[QUOTE=clanter;7999478]
I will remove the photos so the discussion can continue as Quarter horse are the only true western horses :)[/QUOTE]
And this is why I added the additional explanation. That is exactly what I did not mean.
It’s actually kind of a shame that, although it was established way back on page 1 that “good movers in western” are different for different breeds, the discussion immediately became mired in the same old AQHA WP debate.
And in case I wasn’t the only one interested in what Morgan WP looked like, I did some goggling and found this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QdpyNFOxQU
and a bonus - Morgan western trail:
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/lastscan-2.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/lastscan-2.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/FoxieGoldCupJrMareChamp1991-2.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/FoxieGoldCupJrMareChamp1991-2.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/trail-1.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/trail-1.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/hunterpleasure.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/hunterpleasure.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/hunterOF.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/hunterOF.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/CTR.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/CTR.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b386/clanter/AimeeandTheFox.jpg)](http://s23.photobucket.com/user/clanter/media/AimeeandTheFox.jpg.html){kind=link}