Gotta know when to fold 'em...

Jennasis · August 11, 2020, 10:13pm

Warning…long story ahead…but thanks for reading it if you do.

Ok so here’s my dilemma…My horse is a turd (that’s the nickname my trainer and I have given him). I’ve had him for two years now, and while I know we’ve made great progress, I know that I’m way behind and far from where I should be.

My horse is smart, athletic like you can’t believe, and gorgeous…but he hates EVERYTHING. He hates flatwork, bending, giving in…it’s all mental. I thought maybe it was me, that maybe I was doing something wrong (heck I’ve been riding since I was 9 but only the last two years have I gotten serious, at age 25). So I enlisted a professional to ride my horse. This professional I trust very much, and I knew she was impressed with my horse (his looks and apparent skill). But after two very unpleasant rides on him, she told me what my trainer and I already knew…that he and I aren’t a good match.

The first time she rode him it was a fight the whole time. He crow hopped, half-heartedly kicked out when she applied leg, sucked back, and generally did everything in his power to get her to stop…all she was doing was asking him to give-in to the bit and frame up at the walk and trot. After an hour he still hadn’t given in.

On ride number two, she went in with spurs and a crop and determined sense of what she needed to accomplish. After only ten minutes of trotting, my horse was so unglued about her MAKING him do something he didn’t want to do, that he was in a full body sweat, lather and all. it’s not physical. it’s completely mental. He hates his job, except for jumping which he loves. He went so far as to buck, kick, and nearly throw himself on the ground in an attempt to get her off his back. He’d ratehr hurt himeself than do something he didn’t want to.

The pro trainer is actually surprised how well i ride him. Generally he isn’t nearly as combative with me as he was for her (or anyone else who has attempted to ride him). I get tail swishes, some bulging, and sucking back…occasionally refusing to go forward, but we are better together than anyone else I’ve ever seen ride him. Maybe he trusts me more than anyone else.

But what happens when i’m ready to progress further than just an occassional local show, or hacking in the park? Will he try to unseat me at every turn as well?

I have made my horse sound like a monster, but he really isn’t. He is just in the wrong business. I wish I knew what he would rather be doing. I think he’d make an awesome jumper or even an eventer, but that’s not where I am going. I feel like I am letting him down. I’ve worked very hard to develop a relationship with him these two years, and I finally feel like he actually LIKES me…but riding him isn’t fun anymore. It’s a CHORE. I hate cantering on him because he’s either a PIG to get moving and maintain forwardness, or dragging me like a locomotive. His trot is fun and comfy but when I ask for a frame I get tail swishing. I don’t even go out on trail rides anymore because I can’t trust him not to try to jig me all the way home, or run off if I want to canter.

At shows, he’s a SAINT, and won champ at his first show ever and reserve at the following 2 shows. I know he’s got to go, but I want him to go to a good home where he COULD reach his potential. I have a half-boarder who will get first dibs on purchasing him (she’d be crushed if I sold him to someone else)…in the meantime I will fully lease him out to my half-boarder and another girl who used to half-board him, while I try a few other horses out. The girls who will be leasing him are quite happy to not push him outside his very small comfort zone. Me…I want a bit more out of my horse.

I just want to enjoy riding again…and for the kind of money I’m shelling out…I’m not having fun. But I am sick over this. I really love my horse, and can’t belive I couldn’t make this work. If he was mentally as good as he is physically…he’d be unstoppable.

I’m just heartbroken is all. Thanks for listening.

Houdini · August 12, 2020, 5:07pm

Oh no I’m so sorry to hear that things aren’t going well. First off make absolutley sure that it isn’t a soundness issue. Some things can’t be seen with just normal little x-rays. Sometimes Taking them to one of the big clinics and x-raying them all over will find something important. Also is your tack professionaly fitted. I always though Houdini’s saddle fit him fine untill I moved to CF. I had him professionally fitted and it turns out my old saddle was really hurting him. Also if other people are riding him their tack might not fit and could be making him sore. I’m assuming that you want to concentrate on dressage. If you really don’t think he is cut out for it which he may not be then try to find someone interested in doing hunters. I think he needs a strong yet gentle rider. He has a pretty nice open stride if I remember corectly. Take your time looking for another horse. I think if you find a horse that you would be willing to part with your guy for then you know you have found the right horse. If you sell your guy first you might be in a rush to get something else (I know I would be) and might not make the best decision. I too have thought about selling my horse because I know that he really isn’t built to do dressage. Luckily for me though his only protest is to go around the ring like a giraffe. So for now I am still working with him and hoping we will get a lightbulb moment. Your horse is a nice looking horse and I’m sure you won’t have a problem finding him a good home. I think he just needs someone who won’t ask too much from him. Low hunter pleasure horse. Good luck. E-mail me if you need to talk.

Cactuskate · August 12, 2020, 5:22pm

Jenn, been there, done that. Had an OTTB that I did much as you have. Gave him every benefit of the doubt. I mean every…finally realized it just wasn’t going to happen after 3 years of really trying. I loved him on the ground but he was inconsistent and could be a real pig, much the same as you have described. The worst was he took away any confidence I had in myself as a rider.

The best thing I ever did was send him to CA to be sold. That is when I got the offer to trade for Bud. Well that was 3 years ago, and though I wished I hadn’t spent the 3 years dinging around with the horse from hell…I had to wait for Bud to be born and get to three to be ready to trade.

Don’t be too hard on yourself. Some matches are not made in heaven. And fortunately we can sell these guys. Heck I was ready to GIVE my knucklehead away.

And you are so right. We spend too much of our hard earned money, and too much of our emotions, and try too hard to make everything right for these horses, to not get the simplest reward of an enjoyable ride and progress from them.

“The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!”

Evalee_Hunter · August 12, 2020, 5:24pm

Our vet (who works out of New Bolton at U of P) was just telling us of a horse much like this. Our vet was the 3rd vet to see him–1st 2 did not find anything wrong. Our vet put horse in hospital & did nuclear scintigraphy (?spelling?). They shoot a radioactive substance in the horse & then scan it. They found a “hot spot” near the base of the horse’s tail–where the tail joins the body. X-raying that spot showed the horse had fractured some sacral vertebrae in that spot & was in terrible pain. Yet, they could not get a pain response from the horse by deep palpation over that spot, even after they knew where it was. Sometimes you just have to decide how much money you are willing to spend chasing “maybes”. This kind of test is very expensive.

Reginapony · August 12, 2020, 5:39pm

It will be easier to let go of this horse if you find one that you really get along with and likes to please you. Horses are too expensive to keep on Long Island to be stuck with one you are not very happy with. It is not fair to the horse or your budget if you don’t get along. I have seen too many people who got hurt with unsuitable horses. Riding and horse ownership should be fun.

Endurance Rider Wannabee!

Nylar · August 12, 2020, 5:41pm

Reading your post made me feel like I was reading something that I had written about my horse, or that my best friend had written about hers.

My horse sounds more “little-kid obnoxious” than yours, and he’s a doll to be around. We are making some progress (albeit at a snail’s pace), and I love him to death. Hence the fact that he’s staying, and I’m learning patience.

My friend’s horse on the other hand, was a raving loony, and from what I saw of her, your horse is a twin. Talented, gorgeous, and completely without any brain whatsoever. My friend eventually told her trainer to sell the horse and not tell her how he did it. She feels bad that it didn’t work, but she’s progressing much faster now that she’s not scared every time she rides.

If you don’t think this horse is right for you (and that’s the feeling I’m getting), then sell him. No point in wasting time and jeopardizing your safety. As my trainer’s fond of telling me “Your relationship with your horse is bordering abusive, and he’s the one abusing you.”

“Technology is my friend, and sooner or later I will beat my friend into submission.”

Small_Change · August 12, 2020, 5:56pm

It sounds like you have given him every chance he deserves. If he is not in pain, has well fitting tack, good care and a half way decent rider, he should be putting out. Really, look at all you have done for him. A horse that understands what he is being asked to do and doesn’t have a “good” reason to not do it is not keeping up his end of the deal.

My suggestion would be to get tough with him - not abusive or cruel, but tough. Push his limits and ask him to put out. If he won’t, I think it would be best for both of you to move him on.

I went through nearly the same thing with my own gelding this summer. I couldn’t get him over the first fence at a schooling show, let alone around the entire 2’ course. I didn’t get after him with a crop because I was unsure enough about myself that I thought I was inadvertantly causing him to stop. My Dad, who is very experienced but not the greatest teacher in the world (read: He can get the horses to turn themselves inside out but can’t explain how someone else should go about asking them to do it.) couldn’t tell me how to fix it either. He kept saying to ride softly and do a number of fiddly things before the fence. Keep in mind that he is 100lbs heavier and proportionately that much stronger, plus a more aggressive rider. He plain didn’t have the same problems on the horse that I did.
Near the end of the summer (late August or early September.) we took him down to my coach’s. My coach (who is almost two hours away - explaining why I don’t take more lessons.) watched me wrestle with the horse for a good hour to make sure that it was in fact the horse being a pig. After a particularly dirty stop, he gave me a crop and told me to beat the “patoots” out of the horse the next time he stopped. I was to ride him very softly; not pushing at all and give him every opportunity to stop without me actually asking for him to refuse. Four good cracks after the next refusal, we literally have had only half a dozen stops since that lesson. I walked away Low Hunter Champ a show a month later - a far cry from not getting over the first fence.

The moral of my blabbering? Sometimes you just need to be that much more assertive and you have a breakthrough. If you do push though and don’t get results, maybe the horse would be happier elsewhere…

A horse, a horse, of course, of course, unless he’s worth a million and five.

artienallie · August 12, 2020, 5:58pm

Your post sounds like something I would’ve written 3 years ago.

I had a beautiful 9 yo TB mare that had tons of potential, but her mental state just didn’t allow for it to come through, and after two years of working with her, and giving her chance after chance (and ending up on the ground more often than not), I finally sent her off to a pro - who spent the first few times on her back just trying to get her to keep all four feet on the ground.

He finally got me to realize the best thing to do would be to sell her to someone who could utilize her strengths. Her new owners love her.

I turned around and bought a young Clyde/TB cross with a wonderful attitude, and have gotten myself much further along with him than I ever would have with the mare. That’s even though he only had about two months under saddle when I bought him. He’s about as different as you can get, but he’s exactly what I needed to start to get confidence in myself and enjoy riding again. He’s now teaching my SO how to ride, and I’ve gotten a young TB mare with a personality more in tune with mine, and she should be able to take me pretty far, if I decide that’s what I want.

I learned keeping a horse that you don’t enjoy (or even worse, are afraid of) eventually destroys your faith in yourself as a rider or horseman. Selling them is not a failure, it’s the smartest thing you can do in this type of situation.

Hope this helped, and good luck!

Jennasis · August 12, 2020, 6:12pm

Nope, no pain here. He’s been vetted out thoroughly and he’s sound as a pound (as Austin Powers might say). His tack fits, so that’s not the problem.

He’s not affectionate on the ground. He’s like owning a large cat. he could either take me or leave me…no skin off his nose. He has a dirty streak in him sometimes, but over time I learned to ride through it (or at least dust myself off and climb back on after a good tossing).

I know we have to part ways. It’s just sad is all. I feel like I’ve given up on him though I have given him every chance in the book. The turning point now is that it’s not just me who feels this way, but my own trainer and the other professional who I’ve enlisted.

As for pushing him beyond his limits? Well, let’s just say I’m not sure how much health insurance I have. This is a horse who will do anything to get out of being pushed beyond his limits (including hurting himself), and frankly i’m not qualified to go back to square one and retrain him (which may very well be what he needs). It’s very hard for me to admit defeat, but at least I am wise enough to know when I can’t handle the situation.

Dangit…when my guy is good, you’d think he could be the next Rox Dene. Why does he have to be such a butt?

Is it too much to ask for a horse that is sane, quiet, enjoys his job, wants to please you and can hack quietly in the park as well as work an arena? I’m losing my confidence and that worries me. I want to love again! (sheesh, my relationship with my horse sounds a lot like my relationship with my ex-husband!)

Megan_Tequilla · August 12, 2020, 6:14pm

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jennasis:

He’s not affectionate on the ground. He’s like owning a large cat. he could either take me or leave me…no skin off his nose. He has a dirty streak in him sometimes, but over time I learned to ride through it (or at least dust myself off and climb back on after a good tossing).

As for pushing him beyond his limits? Well, let’s just say I’m not sure how much health insurance I have. This is a horse who will do anything to get out of being pushed beyond his limits (including hurting himself), and frankly i’m not qualified to go back to square one and retrain him (which may very well be what he needs). It’s very hard for me to admit defeat, but at least I am wise enough to know when I can’t handle the situation.

Dangit…when my guy is good, you’d think he could be the next Rox Dene. Why does he have to be such a butt? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Normally I just peruse the boards when actively avoiding work, but I had to reply to this one.

I had a very similar situation to yours with my gelding two and a half years ago. He was off the track, with relatively little training, and what he had left much to be desired. He was emotional and beligerant. And most of all, untrusting and afraid.

Oh, I know you say your horse isn’t scared but mine sure didn’t act like it either. He would act aggressively because he was feeling defensive. Basically he didn’t trust anyone and he just wanted us to leave him alone. His dominance combined with his emotional distress made him pretty dangerous at times.

Push him beyond his comfort zone? That’d earn you the automatic reaction of rear-up-and-over-backwards. Lovely what you learn about a horse after you buy them.

He went over with me once. At a show while we were hacking around, not even showing. It was the first time he’d offered that behavior, though now that I look back, there were little symptoms leading up to it that I didn’t recognize because I’d never owned a horse with that particular problem. He’d suck behind my leg if he didn’t want to do something and the rearing was a more demonstrative form of that behavior when he was highly stressed.

My trainer’s reaction was: get rid of him now. Her point (and it’s a good one) was that it doesn’t matter how talented he is. If he puts me in the hospital or kills someone, it’s just not worth it. Any horse that will compromise their own balance in such a severe way because they are upset, is not mentally stable and a total liability to be around.

But at the same time, he had so much potential! Catty as all get out, moved like a million bucks, he was and is probably one of THE nicest horses I’ve ever met. Unfortunately, due to some bad experiences he was a mental wreck.

I don’t know your horse’s history but I’d say first priority, whether you decide to keep him or sell him, find out about it. After finding out about my gelding’s past, a lot of things clicked.

For example, I’d thought he was merely thin-skinned and that was why he twitched and didn’t like to be brushed very much. He didn’t like to be touched anywhere on the barrel or hindquarters and would practically spasm if you brushed near his flanks. Come to find out he had a cattle-prod used at the track as a two year-old. Not long after he kinda went “nuts” (imagine that?) and ended up being dumped in a pasture for five years before I came along. Without knowing these type of incidents, you’d have to guess at how to proceed.

But my long-winded point is that horses such as this can be changed. My formerly untrusting gelding is now a different horse. He trusts people. Formely a bit of a stopper, he’ll now jump anything you put in front of him with enthusiasm. This year was our debut at Novice HTs and Tequila was wonderful. No matter how bad a distance I happen to put him at, he did his best and packed me over it. There were several instances when he really should have stopped because someone (who me?) put him at an impossible distance, yet he calmly saved both our scrawny behinds. He’s become the most forgiving horse I’ve ever ridden, and tries his best even if he hasn’t a clue what you’re asking for. His attitude is unbelievable.

Mr. Anti-social who hated being brushed, was head-shy to an extreme, and moved to the back of the stall when you entered, now greets me at the door and demands his fair share of red licorice. His eyes have lost that squinty look and are now bright, intelligent, and interested.

People who haven’t seen him since I bought him, wonder who my new horse is. However, this type of problem is not something you can do half-way. It involved massive reschooling, and even now, we sometimes have flashbacks during very stimulating situations. But if you ask me, it was well worth the effort. Sometimes even I have a hard time believing that this is the same horse.

Even if you decide he’s not the horse for you, I certainly hope you’ll make sure he gets a good home where he isn’t going to get hurt or hurt anyone else. He must have been through a lot at some point in his life to be so defensive toward people. I think the saying that ‘bad horses are created, not born’ probably applies here.

Jennasis · August 12, 2020, 6:26pm