Grading land for arena - having no luck in Virginia!

[oddoda]

Hello! We moved to VA from FL and are having a hard time finding a place that has enough flat land for a 200x200 riding ring. Even 50-100 acre properties are all sloping up and down! Just today we saw a 40 acre property that had a 15 acre pasture - people here call it a “perfect horse property” but of course, still no 200ft x 200ft flat area for a riding ring. My realtor keeps telling me that it is very simple to get someone out with a “dozer” to move dirt around and create the flat area. Is that really true? To me it sounds expensive and complicated but I figured I ask…

Thanks!

[CupOJavaa]

Hello! Fellow Virginian here! We recently bought a small property just over 8 acres. ALL flat, ALL cleared, ALL level. It’s out there (here)!! If you can help it, just keep looking. Depending on where you’re looking, it’s not unreasonable to expect to find some flat land. Oh, and welcome to Virginia. I think you’ll love it!

[oddoda]

Hello, thank you for replying. We are looking for larger acreage where we can cut trails and have a nice set up for mounted archery and obstacle course etc. etc.My question was more along the lines of looking for someone who has been through this process of leveling land and building an arena on sloping terrain. Thanks!

[anon6923113]

OP - I would suggest calling someone who installs arenas and talking through the process and expenses with them. A 200 x 200 arena will be a BIG job involving lots of material if you are thinking stone dust base, rolling it, and a top layer of good footing, as well as perimeter fencing or a wall. It might well require specific perimeter drainage as well to get water to run off properly and avoid puddles and deep spots. The grading might be one of the less expensive project components when it is all said and done… Even on a hill!

Definitely get some estimates from multiple people though, and talk through their processes and the full scope of work… it can be eye opening I can recommend Tilton Enterprises in Northern Virginia - they do quality work.

[Guilherme]

Like so many things, “it depends.”

[ShotenStar]

We bought an otherwise perfect property with some significant slope to it and brought in a bulldozed to create the ring. It has worked beautifully and held up with only some minor modifications for 30 years.

star

[Guilherme]

Like so many things, “it depends.”

We are in East TN, west of Knoxville, and most of our place rolls up and down. Except for the mountain behind the house. The doesn’t “roll” up and down, it “juts” up and down!!!

We also have some creek and river bottom flats that are lovely.

We have a covered 20m x 60m arena and an open 40m x 90m (more or less) arena. I don’t recall the specific costs on the outside but the covered turn-key costs were $64,500 in 1998.

The ground and planned use will decide the costs of any project. Our open was just a clearing and flattening exercise with some bordering drainage swales. No base of any kind and grass footing. My tenant, who trains and shows jumpers, rides on it regularly without injury to either her or her horses. After a heavy rain it’s out of service for a day or two. In our droughty time of year it gets pretty hard. Weather will often dictate usage pattern in open arenas no matter how well constructed.

We ride with a lady whose place was, literally, “carved out” of a hillside. The prior owners spent a boatload of money to do this. A friend who knows about such things estimated the rental cost of the equipment used (we drove by regularly during the construction) was $1000/day. But it drains beautifully. That’s what money can do!!!

The economics are that in mountainous terrain the bottoms will go for more money than the hills as they are more productive. They are also easier to build on. You don’t have to drill through as much dirt to sink a well. I’m sure you can think of other advantages. The foregoing presumes, of course, that you’re not building on a flood plain and will have drainage control for water coming off of the surrounding hills.

If you want to buy flat land then you have to go where the land is flat. Like IL, IN, or IA. If you are in the more hilly areas of VA then you won’t find what you will in the Midwest. So if you want a flat you’ll likely have to make it. That’s not a problem if you budget permits it. If it doesn’t then you have to consider other choices.

Good luck in your search.

G.

[oddoda]

@Guilherme

Like so many things, “it depends.”

If you want to buy flat land then you have to go where the land is flat. Like IL, IN, or IA. If you are in the more hilly areas of VA then you won’t find what you will in the Midwest. So if you want a flat you’ll likely have to make it. That’s not a problem if you budget permits it. If it doesn’t then you have to consider other choices.

Good luck in your search.

G.

Hello, thanks!

It is not that I want ALL flat, mountains and hills are fine. We have been looking since February! Money aside (VA is very expensive), we have looked at 100 acre properties, 50 acre properties, 40 acre properties. None of which had an area 200x200 (0.8 acres) of relatively flat land. I don’t think I am unreasonable asking for 1/120th of the land I a mpaying dearly for, to be somewhat flat

But, reality is what it is and hence my grading question

[PeteyPie]

@Virginia Horse Mom

OP - I would suggest calling someone who installs arenas and talking through the process and expenses with them. A 200 x 200 arena will be a BIG job involving lots of material if you are thinking stone dust base, rolling it, and a top layer of good footing, as well as perimeter fencing or a wall. It might well require specific perimeter drainage as well to get water to run off properly and avoid puddles and deep spots. The grading might be one of the less expensive project components when it is all said and done… Even on a hill!

Definitely get some estimates from multiple people though, and talk through their processes and the full scope of work… it can be eye opening I can recommend Tilton Enterprises in Northern Virginia - they do quality work.

OP, this ^^^ is what you need to do. Find a property which you like and is under your budget and then get actual quotes from companies which do earthwork. I’ve found that when it comes to construction, the words “expensive” and “costs a lot” are completely useless terms which are tossed around, because you need an actual figure to make that decision for yourself. Your idea of what is expensive and someone else’s idea can be miles apart.

Also, the cost is relative to your budget and the price of the property. To someone else, it may be more relative to the percentage of the property value and that may not matter to you.

[Guilherme]

@oddoda

Hello, thanks!

It is not that I want ALL flat, mountains and hills are fine. We have been looking since February! Money aside (VA is very expensive), we have looked at 100 acre properties, 50 acre properties, 40 acre properties. None of which had an area 200x200 (0.8 acres) of relatively flat land. I don’t think I am unreasonable asking for 1/120th of the land I a mpaying dearly for, to be somewhat flat

But, reality is what it is and hence my grading question

There are parts of my place that could be a flat arena but they are not near the barn, creating an “operational” issue. That’s just the geography of the thing.

What you want is what a lot of people want and the Law of Supply And Demand has not been repealed!!!

That being the case it might be wise to get a rough cost to build what you want and add that to your acquisition budget. If you do that you move out of the high desire/high cost land and into properties with lower amounts of both. Of course No. VA is high dollar country about no matter what you do.

The area you’re looking in was not closely defined and No. VA is a big place. I’ve got some good friends who live in Fort Valley, just outside Strasburg. Lots of nice, flat ground in a narrow valley between two mountains. Don’t know about prices but if you’re interested I’ll p.m. you a couple of names.

Around here 'dozer time will run about $85-$90/hr. To redo our outside with a rock base and clay/sand top was going to run about $20,000 (as of a couple of years ago). That’s as close as I can come to a dollar estimate and it would probably be low given the higher cost of living in No. VA vs. East TN.

Good luck as you continue your search.

G.

[RedmondDressage]

I’m not in VA but I’m on a hilly property - my topography is very common here in Western WA and a lot of people have to do what you’re talking about. I cut my arena into the upper end of my pasture without trouble. The 70x150 space ran me $2100 for the excavation last spring. He cut the top end down about 5’ and raised the other end up 5’ or 6’ at the lowest point. I’m estimating it will be another $6000 - $7000 to finish next spring, including the final level and installing the base and the remaining footing… I will note, I was able to cut my costs almost in half because I got the opportunity to take some premium quality sand/rubber for free from a barn nearby that pulled it out to build a new indoor. So in terms of footing I’ll only be paying for about an inch of sand and no additive.

I’m in the Seattle area - so high cost area - and my guy charges $105 an hour. I attached pictures of my area to give an idea of what we did.

[oddoda]

@RedmondDressage

I’m not in VA but I’m on a hilly property - my topography is very common here in Western WA and a lot of people have to do what you’re talking about. I cut my arena into the upper end of my pasture without trouble. The 70x150 space ran me $2100 for the excavation last spring. He cut the top end down about 5’ and raised the other end up 5’ or 6’ at the lowest point. I’m estimating it will be another $6000 - $7000 to finish next spring, including the final level and installing the base and the remaining footing… I will note, I was able to cut my costs almost in half because I got the opportunity to take some premium quality sand/rubber for free from a barn nearby that pulled it out to build a new indoor. So in terms of footing I’ll only be paying for about an inch of sand and no additive.

I’m in the Seattle area - so high cost area - and my guy charges $105 an hour. I attached pictures of my area to give an idea of what we did.

Thanks!!

[anon6923113]

One other thing OP… when buying property for a farm in Virginia, it’s also good to know about the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act, and how individual counties you may be looking to buy in enforce/interpret it. You need to know if any of the properties you look at, of any acreage on those properties, fall within s designated Resource Protection Area. Fairfax is beyond brutal in terms of their interpretation of this law… Loudon and Prince William are not far behind apparently. I hear Clarke and Frederick are more reasonable.

It won’t apply unless your property is near a body of water considered a tributary. And tributaries can be TINY CREEKS that you wouldn’t think anyone would even have mapped. But BOY OH BOY… if there is a tributary on your property, or adjacent… and near the site where you want to put an arena, driveway, or much of anything else… no dice on getting a permit from your county. There are strict regulations concerning the amount of square footage of earth you can disturb within a certain distance of any Chesapeake Bay Resource Protection area adjacent to a tributary.

Ask me how I know this. The flat spot on my farmette where we wanted to put a dressage arena is within 100 feet of a minuscule creek across the street. No arena. Period. Without well over a years worth of public hearings and representation by a civil engineering firm. Which we decided NOT to pour dollars into. We did manage a wonderful round pen with a great wall and an all weather surface for safe lungeing and ground work… we kept it under the disturbed earth regulation limits… but no dressage arena.

[oddoda]

@Virginia Horse Mom

One other thing OP… when buying property for a farm in Virginia, it’s also good to know about the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act, and how individual counties you may be looking to buy in enforce/interpret it. You need to know if any of the properties you look at, of any acreage on those properties, fall within s designated Resource Protection Area. Fairfax is beyond brutal in terms of their interpretation of this law… Loudon and Prince William are not far behind apparently. I hear Clarke and Frederick are more reasonable.

Ask me how I know this. The flat spot on my farmette where we wanted to put a dressage arena is within 100 feet of a minuscule creek across the street. No arena. Period. Without well over a years worth of public hearings and representation by a civil engineering firm. Which we decided NOT to pour dollars into. We did manage a wonderful round pen with a great wall and an all weather surface for safe lungeing and ground work… we kept it under the disturbed earth regulation limits… but no dressage arena.

Thanks :). We are looking in Central VA - Charlottesvile to Lynchburg to Cumberland to Madison area :). Good to know though!

[gumtree]

There areas you are looking by and large is mostly rolling hills and such. Not that familiar with the area in general but have driven and or visited friends farms around those parts. Have you looked around the Keswick area? I’ve visited a number of farms around there with plenty of level land.

I would bet you would have a lot better luck looking in the Warrenton, Middleburg, The Plains areas.

As to the cost to level around a 1/2 acre which is about the size of the average ring depends on a number of factors. So what it cost someone in one part of the country even in the next county can vary a lot. A lot of Va is rocky. If you see any rock outcrops when inspecting properties this could add considerable $$$ to the cost. Even if you don’t that’s not so say there isn’t any a few feet, few inches below grade.

People, companies that do this sort of work in the area know what is commonly found, encountered. If there is a house on the property and it doesn’t have a basement that is usually a tell-tail. If you find a property that you like call a local company that does excavating, foundations etc. They should be able to give you a high and low estimate over the phone and or have them come out to the property for a site review.

Very good information given by Virginia Horse Mom. The state’s environmental rules and regs can add a lot of cost to the job. A ring may be considered an “impervious surface” and you may be required to install a storm water management system. This can cost $8,000 to $20,000±. A local engineering firm should be able to give estimates. There can also be a fair amount of additional expense to the contractor for soil retention set up, etc during the building process.

"I don’t think I am unreasonable asking for 1/120th of the land I a mpaying dearly for, to be somewhat flat ;). "

Thanks for my morning chuckle

[ToTheNines]

I am building an arena. Central Texas. Most of my land is good soil, but the site I chose had rock outcropping. Worse, the site was sloped and the rock was on the high side. But it’s Texas limestone/shale/clay, which can be broken up with heavy equipment.

I cleared it with my excavator guy, and he said he could do it and gave me an estimate. About 3’ of cut and 3 of fill on the low side. Arena ended up 218 x 117 fenced. Cost of excavation work was $8500.

Call a good excavation company with the right equipment. My guy had a $400,000 grader!

[FitToBeTied]

@oddoda

Thanks :). We are looking in Central VA - Charlottesvile to Lynchburg to Cumberland to Madison area :). Good to know though!

The eastern part of madison (east of Route 29) is pretty flat. West of 29 is hills and mountains.

East of Charlottesville in Fluvanna county is also flat as is Orange county.

Heading towards Lynchburg will be a lot of hills/mountains. East of Rote 15 toward richmond is also relatively flat.

You may consider heading out to the Shenandoah valley. There are some pretty areas that would be considered gentle terrain.

Flat may be a relative definition seeing as you are coming from florida and I have never seen a hill in florida.

You are probably going to have to cut and fill to create a 200x200 arena. It’s pretty routine around here to do that.

[Guilherme]

@FitToBeTied

The eastern part of madison (east of Route 29) is pretty flat. West of 29 is hills and mountains.

East of Charlottesville in Fluvanna county is also flat as is Orange county.

Heading towards Lynchburg will be a lot of hills/mountains. East of Rote 15 toward richmond is also relatively flat.

You may consider heading out to the Shenandoah valley. There are some pretty areas that would be considered gentle terrain.

Flat may be a relative definition seeing as you are coming from florida and I have never seen a hill in florida.

You are probably going to have to cut and fill to create a 200x200 arena. It’s pretty routine around here to do that.

I think The Hill in FL is in Lake Wales!!!

G.

[Christa_P]

@Virginia Horse Mom

One other thing OP… when buying property for a farm in Virginia, it’s also good to know about the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act, and how individual counties you may be looking to buy in enforce/interpret it. You need to know if any of the properties you look at, of any acreage on those properties, fall within s designated Resource Protection Area. Fairfax is beyond brutal in terms of their interpretation of this law… Loudon and Prince William are not far behind apparently. I hear Clarke and Frederick are more reasonable.

It won’t apply unless your property is near a body of water considered a tributary. And tributaries can be TINY CREEKS that you wouldn’t think anyone would even have mapped. But BOY OH BOY… if there is a tributary on your property, or adjacent… and near the site where you want to put an arena, driveway, or much of anything else… no dice on getting a permit from your county. There are strict regulations concerning the amount of square footage of earth you can disturb within a certain distance of any Chesapeake Bay Resource Protection area adjacent to a tributary.

Ask me how I know this. The flat spot on my farmette where we wanted to put a dressage arena is within 100 feet of a minuscule creek across the street. No arena. Period. Without well over a years worth of public hearings and representation by a civil engineering firm. Which we decided NOT to pour dollars into. We did manage a wonderful round pen with a great wall and an all weather surface for safe lungeing and ground work… we kept it under the disturbed earth regulation limits… but no dressage arena.

Just curious, could you do the dressage arena over several years, adding a section every year or two where each section is under the limit? In other words, what is the time frame for the disturbed earth where you can work on another piece of the property?

[oddoda]

Hello, thank you for the replies and advice :). I think we found our place - it is in the mountains (somewhat) but does have enough flat for 200x200 ring. It will require some grading but nothing crazy.