Grain-Free Diet

[JB]

@NancyM

15 years ago, we moved onto a larger farm, with alfalfa/grass hayfields.

what was the previous diet? It sounds like the forage change was an improvement in both quality and quantity - ?

@candyappy

My gelding was on 4-5 pounds of Ultium when I got him as a yearling and he needed that in addition to hay and pasture as he grew . I switched him to something a little less expensive ( Impact mare & foal) until he was 3 and then onto Strategy Healthy Edge . Feeding both at 4 pounds a day because he still needed more than forage alone.

At 4.5 I switched him to a Ration Balancer and he has been on that ever since and needs a grazing muzzle part of the time on grass .

Fast-growing stages may need fairly significant calories, and then when the growth rate slows, they don’t. That’s pretty typical.

@Ottbaxel

Yeah I think in this case I am talking no commercial feed, but I haven’t sat down and had the full conversation with my vet yet to understand what we’re trying to fix and why (we haven’t switched anything over yet).

That’s the first step. I guess I don’t really understand why that conversation, however brief, wasn’t had when she made the suggestion? Had there been some issues that she was out for, or that had been discussed during the visit?

What IS the current diet?

Edited for spelling

[candyappy]

@JB

Fast-growing stages may need fairly significant calories, and then when the growth rate slows, they don’t. That’s pretty typical.

He was actually the first youngster I have ever had that needed feed in that amount in addition the the hay/ pasture we had.

[tabula_rashah]

I have switched all of mine to grain-free and they all look fantastic. They all get soaked hay pellets, Vermont Blend, flax, BOSS and salt. Both my fatties and my hard keepers have benefitted from it. They also all get free choice hay or pasture.
I got a new mare in 2 weeks ago that was getting 6 lbs of TC Senior a day plus hay/pasture and needs some pounds. I’m switching her over to my program and she is already gaining weight and has more bloom.

[Simkie]

Yeah, I’d definitely look to understand what he wants you to avoid. There sure are a lot of roads to Rome.

A lot of people think alfalfa pellets and a comprehensive vitamin/mineral supplement when they talk about grain free, and that’s often hard (maybe impossible) with a hard keeper. It’s just not very palatable! So hard to get them to consume the amount they need to hit the calorie content.

I have been impressed (and kind of surprised) with the volume my picky one is willing to down along with oats, though. If an actual grain isn’t off the table for you, it’s a nice combo.

[fivestrideline]

OP, you’ll notice the success stories have something in common: access to full/unlimited rations of high quality forage. And so far, horses kept at home or on self-care.

It is really, really hard to replace that with hay pellets or cubes or beet pulp fed 2x a day at meals. Horses just don’t seem to want to eat them in the quantities needed (unless the “quantity needed” is extremely low).

A lot of horses go from “hard keepers” to “easy keepers” when they finally get appropriate amounts of good hay or pasture. This can be 20-30lbs/day for some horses!

[tabula_rashah]

Well yeah if you’re not feeding enough forage to begin with no diet is going to be good enough

[JB]

You can make low quality or quantity forage diets work, by feeding more concentrates, and/or a higher calorie concentrate (or adding oil). It can work pretty well actually, assuming the hay isn’t total crap and a 1000lb horse gets more than 10lb of hay

But THOSE horses trying to go “grain free” are going to struggle, because the majority of the options are lower in calories than the concentrates, sometimes a lot lower like half, and at some point a horse just can’t eat enough food to get his calories back

[SusanO]

Yes the new buzzword is “inflammation”. For horses, people and I suppose dogs and cats. I think if you asked these people what was “inflamed” they could not tell you. Maybe next year there will be a new buzzword.

[JB]

Nope, they couldn’t tell you. And, they don’t even realize that some level of inflammation is a requirement to live. Literally. It’s out of control/unchecked inflammation that’s bad, and no single ingredient does that, barring an actual metabolic problem or allergy/sensitivity.

What’s HILARIOUS, is the group who is so vehemently anti-commercial feeds because of things like wheat middlings, soy, corn/oats/barley, etc, because they’ve been told, with zero actual understanding, those are high in Omega 6 and that’s “inflammatory”, and THEN turn around and recommend rice bran for calories.

[JB]

@SusanO

Maybe next year there will be a new buzzword.

It’s already here - “forage forward”

First it was forage-based. ALL horses should be eating a forage-based diet, and if they’re getting at least 1.5% of their weight in hay/grass, they ARE. THEN, if they’re also eating a feed that’s forage/fiber based, like most quality feeds are, even more so.

Then came “forage only”, except, they’re still feeding a v/m or forage balance.

Then recently, “forage forward” came out

[mmeqcenter]

Grain-free means something different to everyone, so I’ll caveat that “Grain free” for me means no cereal grains such as corn, oats, and barley. The ration balancer I use does have Wheat middlings, but they aren’t actually made from the wheat grain, so I don’t count that as grain.

My OTTBs have been off grain for 6-7 years. They get free-choice alfalfa hay and a ration balancer. My one mare has a history of recurrent ulcers and keeping her off all corn and molasses has been the key to keeping her tummy happy long-term. That was my first switch. Then, when I moved her from Ohio to Florida onto my own farm (I boarded in Ohio), she got to be out 24/7 and I could feed what I wanted, so I started doing compressed alfalfa blocks in the fields, and she got quite plump. As she gained weight, I kept dropping her hard feed until it was down to none, then I started giving her a ration balancer for vitamins/minerals. So, other than the ulcers thing, they’re not on grain cuz they just simply don’t need grain. Even when we were schooling 3rd level and riding six days a week, my mare was RIPPED and looked incredible and still didn’t get grain. Free-choice high quality hay will always win.

However, I am moving from Florida to Georgia, and it doesn’t look like I’ll be able to give them free-choice alfalfa hay here in Georgia, just grass hay. Can’t find anything bigger than small squares to save my life, and free-choice small alfalfa squares would be around $500/month per horse. I’m planning to give them free-choice grass hay (round bales in the field) plus a couple flakes of alfalfa a day with their ration balancer to start. We’ll see if I have to add any more calories.

[mmeqcenter]

@fivestrideline

OP, you’ll notice the success stories have something in common: access to full/unlimited rations of high quality forage. And so far, horses kept at home or on self-care.

It is really, really hard to replace that with hay pellets or cubes or beet pulp fed 2x a day at meals. Horses just don’t seem to want to eat them in the quantities needed (unless the “quantity needed” is extremely low).

A lot of horses go from “hard keepers” to “easy keepers” when they finally get appropriate amounts of good hay or pasture. This can be 20-30lbs/day for some horses!

All of this

[Pico_Banana]

Just to add on to the “start with good quality hay” part of this discussion, which I agree with, but that doesn’t mean that every horse on that diet can still go without grain (if defining grain as bagged commercial feed).

I have three horses at home. All have free choice hay and/or pasture. One of them has always struggled with her weight so she gets her hay in a hay net and wears a grazing muzzle. She gets a VMS in a very small amount of carrier (usually beet pulp). The other two are hard keepers. They get their hay loose and no grazing muzzle. In addition, they both eat 7 lbs of Triple Crown Senior a day, plus a healthy amount of timothy/alfalfa cubes (my senior gets A LOT of cubes). They don’t eat the same volume of hay/grass as my easy keeper but they will eat more grain, so that’s how I ensure they get enough calories.

The moral of the story is that every horse is different.

[ThreeWishes]

Agree you really need to know the CURRENT diet and what it is that is remiss or needs tweaking. Also 100% agree the basis of a good diet is good quality hay in sufficient amount. Then you fill in the gaps with something that covers the vitamins minerals and amino acids your horse needs. Be it a VM supplement a ration balancer or a fortified commercial feed fed in the proper quantity. Just switching to grain free because it’s the buzz word du jour doesn’t make sense.

[JB]

@Pico_Banana

Just to add on to the “start with good quality hay” part of this discussion, which I agree with, but that doesn’t mean that every horse on that diet can still go without grain (if defining grain as bagged commercial feed).

Eggggzactly. IME, from having watched probably a couple 100 of these diet changes over the years now, the ones who are in good weight on a high quality diet and eating 5-10lb of a quality feed in addition to a buffet of grass and/or hay, I’d say probably over 70% have done poorly on a “grain free” diet because they simply don’t have enough hours in the day to chew less calorie dense products

The other 30% have likely done better, or at least as well, because something about their particular feed didn’t suit them well. Would they have done better on a different feed? Maybe, I see that a lot too. Maybe not, maybe they really truly did need to come off soy/wheat/alfalfa/whatever

[RhythmNCruise]

My horse has been “grain-free” for most of his life. His commercial feeds have contained no oats, corn, or barley and have been based in beet pulp, alfalfa, and soy. The switch to TC Gold Balancer also removed soy. He currently gets that, Forage Only from Unbeetable (alfalfa, beet pulp, flaxseed oil pellet), grass hay, and pasture. He also gets a smattering of supplements.

The one time he got put onto a feed that contained a lot of oats, he became ulcery, crazy, gassy, and skinny with the runs. Never again.

I will say, I can’t really tell much else though. I THOUGHT maybe I had fixed things for him regarding his summertime skin and coat issues. He lives on short pasture with no weeds where the manure is dragged daily. His stall has a fan and is picked multiple times a day. Bugs just aren’t much of an issue, despite it being absurdly hot and humid here (heat index was 106 today, going outside feels like walking into an oven).

He’s lost all of the hair on his face, is rubbing his entire body on anything strong enough to withstand his weight (hitching post, posts on the barn “porch,” stall doorways, etc. He wears Shoo Fly leggins 24/7 else he’d chew his legs bloody. He wears a fly mask, but I’m starting to think that’s contributing to his hairless face. But he’s an Appy, and I’m protective of his eyes).

This all to say, I have come to the conclusion that once summer reaches this hellish combo of heat and humidity that isn’t fit for man nor beast, it doesn’t matter what I’m feeding him. He’s managed in the best possible way, but it makes no difference. If anything, right now it’s about as bad as I’ve ever seen. He’s going through a bout of anhidrosis too, which makes everything worse for his skin.

So, regarding inflammation…I do find actual grain does inflame his gut. That’s a no-go for him. To date, I cannot say that anything he eats causes inflammation anywhere else. His epidermis seems to be inflamed by the environment more than anything else.

All of that long, not necessarily on-topic stuff said, there are enough options for “grain-free” feeding of horses now, that it’s not hard to do at all. Many, many commercial feeds do not contain actual “grain” in them these days. Triple Crown Senior has always been a good one for the horse that needs the calories but not the grain. Good stuff.

[luvmyhackney]

Mine are “grain free” technically except for 1 horse in the winter I supplement with grain.

1 measuring cup soaked beet pulp, California trace, vitamin e, salt, 1/2 c. Flax, msm, and a scoop of Heiro for pony. Two get grass hay in slow feed hay nets that is weighed and appropriate for their size. It’s tested and great quality. Other horse get unlimited grass hay and 10-12 lbs of alfalfa a day.

For my one horse I add 2-3 lbs Ultium Gastric for extra calories. He just can’t eat enough hay in the winter. I could feed straight alfalfa but his pasture mates don’t need the alfalfa.

I have noticed a difference with my cushings pony with soy, his sheath gets puffy and he retains fluid around his lower legs if he eats it. Otherwise I’d just feed a ration balancer.

[lenapesadie]

Mine are not technically grain free I suppose. Their ration balancer has oats as the third ingredient and rice bran as the 4th (behind ground timothy and flax). This particular brand is fed per the label to my two horses at the rate of 2lbs per day and 3lbs per day (it’s a higher feed rate than many balancers but my horses find it more palatable and it’s soy free). So realistically a very small amount of actual grains.

My heathen pony was eating two gallons of sweet feed daily at his prior home. The switch to my “almost grain free” diet has been very beneficial for him. He’s lost the excess weight he was carrying and the suspicious crestiness on his neck. His coat, hooves and eyes are vastly improved.

I keep horses at home and they have access to forage at all times now. The pony did have his hay restricted at first. I do utilize grazing muzzles when the pasture is lush.

My big horse also does fine on this diet.

For both of my current horses it would be easy enough to sub in more alfalfa hay if they needed more calories. Conversely, my dearly departed Norman was always on the thin side despite shoveling alfalfa to him and feeding him 12 plus pounds of high calorie commercial feed (TC Sr Gold / Ultium Gastric Care) daily. He could not do a “grain free” diet bc he needed more calories.

There’s nothing wrong with a grain free diet in of itself as long as it’s suitable for the horse in question and the parameters of the caregiver.

[Scribbler]

If you think about human health. In general sedentary overweight humans benefit from cutting out carbs and sugar and losing weight before they become diabetic and mess up their metabolism. The average sedentary overweight pet horse with laminitis lurking in the background also benefits from lower carbs and sugar.

But the human distance or endurance athlete, runner or rower or cycler even weight lifter or even back packing in the mountains needs carbs, more calories, and can even benefit from pure glucose sports gels because they are burning so much energy. Likewise, race horses are not on grain free diets, and I expect neither would top level cross country horses. They burn up more calories than they could get from hay.

[kaya842]

@luvmyhackney

I have noticed a difference with my cushings pony with soy, his sheath gets puffy and he retains fluid around his lower legs if he eats it. Otherwise I’d just feed a ration balancer.

Same - tried no sou vs soy a few times to be sure but it does affect my mare physically (bloat/ fluid retention type deal) and mentally (she loses her marbles a bit) so I avoid it. It’s not overly hard to do the same for the other horses I’ve owned since I do it for her. I feel the change has chilled my other mare out as well but could be the low sugar part.

Mine are “grain free” (I think truly grain free but would have to check the KIS supp): they get Coolstance copra + KIS Trace + Vit E + additional copper and zinc. The WB gets supps + 1 cup/ meal and the TB gets supps + 4 cups/ meal. Prior to this, TB was eating 5qts (I think it was a 3qt scoop? It’s been a while) twice daily (8lbs+ a day?) of Tribute Kalm n Ex and other similar grains. Before I got her, the WB was on like half a 3qt scoop twice a day? So they eat less, much less, concentrates. They are less up at feed time, they are less up and more smooth minded, both have dappled (flea bit grey and bay) shiny coats, both saw “tighter” hoof growth come through on this, bay sun bleached less. Love the low sugar of the Copra.

Caveat that horses were at home until May of this year on free choice grass + alfalfa (which, thankfully, they are still on at the boarding barn). I have been looking at trying the Tribute Wholesome Blends balance to simplify the routine for the barn staff since I’m boarding but worry I will need to fed lots more than current routine.