Grain-Free Diets: What and How Much?

Yes, and most feeds are in the 1lb/qt range, some as light as .85lb/qt, some heavier in the 1.3lb/qt range, no idea if any are heavier.

I have heard the whole grain free thing in the canine world, I didn’t realize it had wormed its way into some equestrian brains.

Oh boy, you haven’t been hanging out in this forum much have you LOL :slight_smile:

Well, FeedXL is a great start. It’s not the whole picture, as it doesn’t tell you anything about ratios, so opens up a whole new, deeper and wider rabbit hole of bring a non-commercial feed diet up to par.

If she really does want to work on an elimination diet - which is VERY valid - then IMHO she needs to eliminate soy, alfalfa, oats, and corn. Those are the most common allergens. Going that route, and getting enough calories, with enough protein, as well as other nutrients, for a horse like hers, is neither easy nor cheap.

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Just out of curiously, does she have a trainer/coach or a regular vet? If yes, do either/both not tell her that the horse is a bit underweight? It seems odd that a trainer and/or a vet wouldn’t point out underfeeding a working horse of his size, unless there were a medical reason to keep him trim/underweight?

I have two (non-riding pony & horse) that are kept a bit lean due to them being prone to founder, and of course my vet is involved in a healthy way to manage that with special feed, careful pasture rotation off/on small paddock/large field and hay feedings in winter. For instance, we can’t give piggy & porky a round bale - they’d try to eat the whole thing at one sitting. Which would be a disaster.

I was just wondering if a vet and/or trainer were supporting her underfeeding for whatever reason or if they simply don’t mention it or aren’t involved in the horses care to begin with (therefore aren’t making any comments because she doesn’t have a reg vet or trainer). Anyway, I was just curious!

True food allergies are not common in horses. People mistakenly think that because they remove a product containing a certain ingredient (like soy) and saw improvement at a horse is “allergic” to soy. They fail to realize that they removed a product with dozens of ingredients, and the overall diet of the horse is not the same. That is not science, and the food allergy allegations are simply repeated ad nauseum from one anonymous person to another with little basis in science.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/food-allergies-horses-hypersensitivity-leaky-gut?id=&sk=&date=& &pageID=2

Having been that person who didn’t want to use commercial feeds, I do get that aspect of your friend’s thought process. However, when you see something is NOT working, something has to change. Going that route of 24/7 hay, alfalfa pellets, ground flax, and a vit/min supplement worked well for my horses…until it didn’t. My TB was thriving while my QH started to…not.

I had to get over the mental “stigma” or what have you I had about commercial feeds. Not sure where that even started for me. I just made the change so I haven’t seen “results” yet but I know that I made the right choice, even if the particular feed I chose might not be the be all/end all perfect fit. Time will tell.

Your friend has to do what is best for her horse. Good for you for advocating for her horse in the meantime.

All 3 of my horses would be seized by animal control in a few months if I fed them like that. :eek:

When in full work they each eat about 30-40 lbs of 2nd cutting grass hay and 12 quarts of TC Sr a day plus a pound of two of TC 30%

Wow you all feed a lot of grain (loose term, as I’m concentrates from a bag).

My beast gets 2 cups (yes, about 2 lbs) split into two feedings. He is the ‘harder’ keeper (other is an air fern that gets 1/4 cup just to feel Included). I have fed both ultium in the past as well as tribute - both in the same rough amounts. Hay is unlimited. The pasture is still quite good (Ontario) though we got snow and that will worsen.

The amount I feed is so low that I worry about vitamin and mineral deficiencies. We add horsetech custom mix (vet nutritionist designed - best $75 spent) to avoid problems. But I will say that if I fed as the bag required I would have blimps on my hands. To make sure vitamins are eaten we add some wet mush - hay cubes are preferred with flax seeds for crunch and shine (whole).

Both are warmbloods in decent work. Official vet clinic weigh in was 1550 lbs; my guess on the other is about 1400. It honestly costs about $35 per month for the grain for both.

They get fed whatever it takes to get calories needed :slight_smile:

]My beast gets 2 cups (yes, about 2 lbs) split into two feedings.

What are you feeding that weighs 1lb/cup?

The amount I feed is so low that I worry about vitamin and mineral deficiencies. We add horsetech custom mix (vet nutritionist designed - best $75 spent) to avoid problems

If you’re really feeding 2lb of, what I assume is a regular feed, then use a ration balancer at 1-2lb.

But I will say that if I fed as the bag required I would have blimps on my hands.

That’s why you feed the right amount of a ration balancer, instead of a “handful” of a regular feed :slight_smile:

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You may want to check out TC Lite - it’s formulated for easy keepers and fortified to be fed at the weight you are currently feeding. I spend just under $1/day/horse with it. I add flax too, for shine etc. But, do what works for you, sounds like you have some good professionals involved. :slight_smile:

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I have a friend who also has a ottb and she is going to switch to a grain free diet based on an interesting book she read. Free choice hay, pasture, alfalfa pellets, and soybean meal. She’s been feeding grain but hopes this diet will lead to better weight gain and reduced crabbiness. The book is called “the 11 pillars of equine nutrition.”

hay, pasture, alfalfa (of any form) and soybean meal isn’t a balanced or complete diet. If there’s not enough pasture, there’s not enough vitamin E. If there’s not enough pasture and not enough alfalfa, there’s not enough vitamin A. Unless she’s in one of the few areas that doesn’t have high iron, there’s not enough copper or zinc, or at least not enough relative to the iron.

Usually when people want to go “grain free”, they’re trying to avoid cereal grains (which she is), or soy and/or alfalfa (which she isn’t).

Why did she want to switch?

JB, read the book. It’s on Amazon. The book addresses all of your concerns.

Couldn’t find a book called “The 11 Pillars of Equine Nutrition” on Amazon or anywhere for that matter. But did find this during a google search for the book - on the The Equine Practice, Inc.'s website (www.theequinepractice.com).

Summary Of The Eleven Pillars of Equine Nutrition

Pillar 1 Grazing Not Browsing – Horses are grazers eating only what is found on the ground at the time of eating it. This is supported by the development of the ramped retina at the back of their eyeball. Ramping it alters the focal point of vision which helps in distant focusing when the head is lowered to eat (seeing enemies on the horizon) while also focusing up close things on the ground. They are poor at digesting woody plants but excel at cellulose though they need a large body and a continuous intake to meet their needs.

Pillar 2 The Basics of Sugar, Fat and Proteins – This pillar covered the basics of carbohydrates (including the following sugar names: sugar, glucose, starch, cellulose, glycogen, saccharide, monosaccharide, disaccharide, polysaccharide, oligosaccharide, lipopolysaccharide, mucopolysaccharide, fructose, sucrose, lactose, and more), fats (including the following fat names: adipose tissue, short chain fatty acids, medium chain fatty acids, long chain fatty acids, short chain triglycerides, medium chain triglycerides, MCT oil, long chain triglycerides, ketones, oils) and proteins (made up of: essential amino acids, non-essential amino acids, peptides). I showed that all of these are made of Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen with the addition of Nitrogen and some Sulfur in proteins. I showed that these three classes of nutrients can interchange with each becoming another in processes such as gluconeogenesis controlled by the body.

Pillar 3 Gut Microbes – The concept of microscopic bacteria (including the following names: microbes, microbiome, microbiota, holobiome) within the lumen of the gut as well as on and around the body is relevant in discussing nutrition. It is the microbes within the gut that consume the raw material we call food and they in turn create the fuels that are absorbed through the semipermeable gut wall. They also can make certain vitamins which also pass through the gut wall. Destroying these “good” microbes creates an area for opportunistic growth of “bad” bacteria, create lipopolysaccharides (microbe body parts, LPS) that can damage the gut wall and can create ulcerations of the gut wall.

Pillar 4 Gut Inflammation – Inflammation of the gut wall is at the root of most if not all diseases and dysfunctions (unsoundness) of the horse. I described the opening of the tight junctions allowing the entrance of foreign proteins that not only creates inflammation but also can disrupt hormone communication and nerve transmissions. The causes of the gut damage are altered gut microbes, death parts of microbes, lectins and molds. Collectively this is called leaky gut syndrome.

Pillar 5 Making Energy and Mitochondria – The production of energy within the cell is done by the mitochondria. The 2 main fuels are glucose and ketones with ketones being more efficient and cleanest in producing energy. I discussed mitochondrial exhaustion as being a possible cause of insulin resistance. I also said there is evidence showing that mitochondria were once a bacteria living outside of the cell but now live in symbiosis within every cell of every animal. The gut microbes are feeding these mitochondria which in turn give energy to keep the body alive and functioning properly.

Pillar 6 Carbohydrate Dependency – Carbohydrate dependency is the cause of mitochondrial fatigue which in turn leads to cell death as well as general malaise, poor energy, disease and dysfunction of the horse. I described what hay is and how that affects carbohydrate load. I discussed why grains and other sources of starch given every day of the horse’s life does not allow the mitochondria to rest. It also causes the creation of more fat, the inability of the horse to loose fat, and the horse converting the muscles of the top line into sugar.

Pillar 7 The High Fat Diet – It is a reality that horses eating pasture and hay are really on a high fat diet. This changes with the season due to the ebb and flow of starch in the grass. When starch is low, the horse converts cellulose into short chain fatty acids which become ketones fueling the mitochondria efficiently as well as preserving the muscles from being converted into fuel.

Pillar 8 The Importance of Protein – What is crude protein and why it is so important to know the ingredients that are providing the protein. I also described what amino acids and biologic value of proteins are. I also offered some math to help you determine how to calculate just how much protein your horse is eating and emphasized that if you are low in just one amino acid, you are low in ALL amino acids. I then gave suggestions why horses are suffering from chronic protein deficiency.

Pillar 9 GMO, Pesticides and Fertilizers – The definitions and history of genetic modification, pesticide use including RoundUp and the mechanics of fertilizers. In my study of these I found no clear evidence that, if used correctly, there was any damage to horses from GM, RoundUp or inorganic fertilizers. This seems to fly in the face of those who believe otherwise. I suggested that what has not been studied is their effect on the microbiome or holobiome. I further suggested that if you eliminate all feed other than pasture and hay that you would be eliminating a lot of these issues. Horses need to eat but finding non-GM pasture and hay grown without pesticides and synthetic fertilizer is very hard. Worrying about it, especially in non-breeding horses, may not be necessary.

Pillar 10 Supplements – The descriptions of Vitamins, Minerals, Electrolytes and Herbs and the problems of deficiency and toxicity if any. What was determined was that there was no need to supplement with vitamins unless the horses were subjected to starvation or sever weather such as drought. The same seemed to be true with minerals as the horse was very efficient in preserving the correct amounts of minerals within the body. Additional electrolytes were needed only with severe sweating and diarrhea or if the horse has the genetic mutation causing HYPP.

Pillar 11 Lectins – An introduction of the relatively new concept of plant proteins called lectins that are protecting the plant from predators by disrupting hormonal communication and nerve transmission. How lectins cause inflammation in the gut and the nerves including the brain was discussed. Lectins are found mostly in the outer part of all soft seeds (grains) and feeding grain byproducts is possibly feeding the horse a concentrated form of lectins. These proteins directly attack the tight junctions of the gut wall and is a major cause of Leaky Gut Syndrome in people.

I found a summary of it:

What was determined was that there was no need to supplement with vitamins unless the horses were subjected to starvation or sever weather such as drought.
This couldn’t be further from the truth, which brings everything else into question. A hay-only diet is deficient in Vit E. Proven. Eat only hay for long enough, and while a horse will get by for a while on whatever stores he had, if he’s doing any sort of work, he’ll start having problems.

Many soils in the US are also high in iron, result in outright low copper and zinc, or low in relation to iron. While that’s not likely to start laying horses out, many situations of rain rot and scratches are a direct result of insufficient cu/zn, or Vitamin A, or all 3.

Not supplementing nutrients may be fine if you want survival. But it doesn’t fly for optimal health.

The same seemed to be true with minerals as the horse was very efficient in preserving the correct amounts of minerals within the body.

Again, no, not even close. Yes, some are more stable than others, but there’s a reason there are documented diseases and other situations with non-supplemented scenarios. Because they exist. Selenium deficiency. Vit E deficiency. DOD issues caused by unbalanced forage. All proven.

Lectins - nothing that I have ever found has ever been studied in horses and “leaky gut”. Not saying LG doesn’t exist, but there’s no evidence it’s caused by the typical amount of grains/by-products found in commercial feeds.

She can do as she thinks best. I would just urge her to do some research on what constitutes a balanced diet.

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Reading a blurb and making so many judgments doesn’t work for me. Here’s some detail for you to read.

https://theequinepractice.com/decomplexicating-equine-nutrition-introduction/

Thank you for providing information from a real person with real credentials. I’m sure the anonymous internet posters with no credentials will allege DVMs know nothing about equine nutrition because in vet school they may only take one class, if any, on nutrition. Most vets chose vet school over med school, law school, business school, etc because they have a passion for animals (like we do) and one can only conclude that they will continue to educate themselves (like we do) about issues that impact the health and welfare of their patients.

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Vitamin E – There are no known deficiencies

EMND is caused by a Vitamin E deficiency.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950518/

Copper and zinc -

Deficiencies are not common

We know that is not true. Inappropriately bleached coats, rain rot and scratches, cracking feet. You can’t grow forage in most of the US where iron in the soil is sky high, and have sufficient copper in the forage. There might be enough to not cause blatant disease, but it’s not hard to be deficient enough to cause symptoms that have people running for every skin and coat and hoof supplement. And more information is showing that the iron overload issue, relative to cu and zn anyway, is linked to insulin resistance issues by way of glucose intolerance

Selenium -

Deficiencies in horses older than newborns horses have not been shown to cause problems

How about killing a horse?
https://thehorse.com/18527/is-seleni…dly-to-horses/
In fact, “Allen said that during the team’s investigation, the horses’ owners revealed that advice from online blogs led them to believe that selenium was dangerous for their horses and, as such, they should not provide supplementation. “They also thought by purchasing expensive hay that they would be covered,” he said.”

How about too little Se being a factor in a horse tying up? It’s happened to more than one endurance horse. Just because it doesn’t cause

The details in that link only support what was stated in the summaries I pulled earlier

So again:

  1. Adding vitamins to the horse’s diet is unnecessary unless they are starving or on severely poor pasture and hay.

Not true. The best grass hay doesn’t have enough vitamin E. Deficiencies are just not more common because a good many horses can do just fine on their reserves while eating E-deficient hay for the Winter, and then have the Spring-Fall to eat grass and fill up again. But there are plenty of areas where there is no grass, not to mention the IR horses who get little to no grass either.

  1. Save money by not feeding extra vitamins, minerals, electrolytes or grain. Invest in feeding the best quality pasture and hay you can purchase.

Except that no hay is balanced, some more balanced than others, and you can’t get nutrients out of hay when it’s not in there - vitamin E for example, hay/grass grown in areas with too little selenium, hay grown in areas with too much iron (most of the US) which means too little copper and zinc.

Clearly TEP knows some basics of chemistry and nutrition. But also clearly, some of the statements are flat out wrong.

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Thank you for the article Enjoytheride. Something that struck me while I read it was that the author did not appear to take the following into consideration: Over the last 40(ish) years, the average life span of our horses has increased, the amount of land for grazing has decreased in many areas, and even the type of pasture/hay available to our horses has changed, often times leading to NSC levels that would not be healthy for horses with metabolic issues.

Speaking of metabolic issues, I wonder if the author took breeding into consideration. Whether we like it or not, some of the metabolic challenges that we deal with today is the result of genetics, which predispose certain breeds or lines to issues like IR, polysaccharide storage myopathy, and founder. My draft cross does not have EPSM because he was fed hard feed while he was still growing. He has EPSM (type 1) because of his genetic makeup. His vet believes that his IR is also genetic.

I was actually irritated by the author assuming that owners are proud to be managing health issues such as Cushings (now often instead referred to as PPID). I’m not proud of the fact that I have an IR horse and another with PPID. What I am proud of is the ability to keep my senior horses healthy and comfortable for as long as possible.

I’m not disagreeing with the author as far as forage goes. It is the foundation of what I feed my animals. This time of year, my tiny herd of 3 each get between 28-32 pounds of grass hay per day (steamed and/or soaked for the big fella) in slow feed nets. But two of them get enough hard feed to maintain their weight and my draft-x gets 3 cups of oil and forage cubes. Everyone is supplemented for vitamin E, selenium (deficient in our area), and a multi-vitamin/mineral designed to meet the needs of horses on a mainly forage diet. I’m no expert in nutrition by any means but I do my best and consult with my vet before making changes.

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All I can say is that blurb from the book/author made my eyes bleed. Oy vey.
As a point: mitochondrial exhaustion? Letting mitochondria rest? If your mitochondria are resting - you be dead.

My opinion: do your ponies a favor and take that book and toss it in the trash bin.

Am I an expert on equine nutrition? Not at all. Just your garden variety professor of biochemistry.

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I’m currently happy with my horse’s program but I found the different point of view interesting. Hopefully people will read it and form their own opinions, either way they go.

He clearly mentions testing your hay and grass to find out any deficiencies.

It would probably be easier to just do the allergy testing and eliminate the actual allergens. I did that. Otherwise this is a little bit of a stab in the dark plan. IF the horse has allergies it may be to something she is increasing in his diet.

The testing cost me about $100 a couple years ago. My horse tested allergic to corn, soy, oats, alfalfa and timothy. So going “grain free” would not have helped, I’d have likely still given him allergens.

He now eats grass hay, rice bran, flax seed, beet pulp, orchard grass pellets, and barley. Plus a vitamin/mineral supplement and a chelated palm oil supplement.