Grand Prix Riders using Gadgets?

[sassymares]

I have been trained using the french philosophy of riding using the concept of riding with lightness. Being taught using draw reins/Chambons/DeGogues/etc. are bad things and should never be used, I recently watched some riders warming up before a Grand Prix and I was mortified to see some of the things these amazing riders have on their horses. I know that most, if not all, of these horses are very difficult and have a lot of power but still. A few days later I was thinking about it and gained some perspective. Yes, these riders are using “no-no” gadgets but if they are showing more successfully than me and everyone else in my barn they have to be doing something right.

Can anyone shed some more light on the subject? I am definitely willing to talk to my trainer about some of these ideas if someone gives me more information on this so that I’m not up a creek without a paddle. Thanks! I really just want to learn more and I’m not trying to cause drama.

[SuzieQNutter]

I used to take lessons on a grand prix horse. Usually we rode him in a double bridle. One lesson I rode him in a snaffle with draw reins.

He went well in them. I can’t remember why. You give the same as you do with the curb rein on a double bridle.

[GraceLikeRain]

A tool is only as harsh as the hands that control it.

Yes, some grand prix horses can go hack in a halter and nap ringside but many are very hot and alert on show grounds. If a qualified rider thinks that they made need back up, it is better to have those resources than not when in a crowded warm up ring where there is little room for error.

I do not get on without a crop and spurs. That does not mean I have to use them. Similarly, warming up with draw reins doesn’t mean that a rider is actively using them.

[fordtraktor]

Also, don’t mistake everything you see winning Grand Prix riders doing as “therefore it must be a good idea.” IMO a fair number take a lot of shortcuts. Until you have been on the circuit for a while, especially early in the week when schooling is done, it is very hard to know who is who.

Some horses legitimately need those tools. I am not a draw rein hater. And some people are really tough on their GP horses. Winning isn’t everything and I wouldn’t emulate those riders just because they are successful. I am not saying they aren’t good --they are – but they get results in ways I don’t want to attempt.

There are also a lot of riders who treasure their horses and are very kind to them all the time, so I am not hating on UL riders either. Pick those to emulate! You won’t be able to tell who is who just by their equipment IME.

[yellowbritches]

All of those things are tools that can help a competent rider through a tricky spot with a horse. They aren’t going to solve anything or make up for good schooling, but they can help in certain circumstances.

I am far from a Grand Prix rider but I own a touchy, firey little horse with a sensitive mouth. He is not one you bit up. He can get very hot and cantankerous in some situations, despite being an otherwise very well schooled, easy ride. I use draw reins in those instances because they give me a little extra something. 95% of the time in those rides, they are loopy and not engaged at all. That 5% I need them, though, keeps us together, and helps control any fires that might be stirred up.

I am a firm believer in good, consistent training that starts with proper flatwork. But I also believe in knowing how to properly use the tools that are available, as long as those tools aren’t inherently dangerous or cruel. That includes bits, martingales, whips, spurs, and “gadgets.”

[mvp]

FWIW, I wouldn’t put a chambon in quite the same category of other “gadgets”— with that negative connotation.

I think there’s a time and place for using head-controlling equipment. Unless I know the horse well, I can’t form an opinion about whether or not the rider made a good equipment choice.

[SendenHorse]

Hate them all-also don’t understand how having all those straps on and JUMPING seems safe. Course, they are known for shortcuts and over-bitting. Its unfortunate.

[PNWjumper]

There’s a time and a place for all gadgets. In the right hands they can help a horse navigate a difficult concept more quickly or more easily and/or help a horse develop the muscle to handle a tough concept more readily.

Yes, there are people who abuse gadgets and use them as shortcuts. But a skilled rider knows when and how to use them for the horse’s benefit. And when you’re talking grand prix riders…people seem to like to think that there are “good” grand prix riders and “bad” grand prix riders. It’s just not that black and white as it takes a certain trust level between horse and rider to make it around a course at all. And as most people seem to be aware of - the type of horse that it takes (often) to get to that level is a horse that has it’s own opinion and may not be so inclined to listen to its rider.

I won’t even get started on bits. I tried to ride my OTTB around his first 1.40m courses in a snaffle-type bit and ended up doing 7 strides in a line that walked an 11 :eek: We promptly moved to a gag, which I used for many years before finally being able to move away from it in our 6th year in the 1.40m+ classes.

My belief is that as a horseman you should know better than saying the words “never” or “always” about ANYTHING.

With that being said, I tend to agree with trainers who keep gadgets away from their kids (for the most part). I grew up with a trainer like that as well. But even with his KISS philosophy, I rode in draw reins for a short period and he had one of my friends (on a hot, hot, head flipping mare) in a chambon/de gogue for a while.

I would not be interested in riding with someone who says, “no gadgets, no way, ever, period.” I’m always interested in riding with someone who says, “YOUR horse doesn’t need THAT gadget because of x, y, or z” or “YOU need to master x/y/z skill before being allowed to use that gadget.”

I’m a bit of a minimalist when it comes to gear in the show ring, but I’m all for using whatever gadgets I think can HELP my horses at home.

Again, the words NEVER and ALWAYS just have no place in the horse world.

[longtimelurker]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8652833]
Hate them all-also don’t understand how having all those straps on and JUMPING seems safe. Course, they are known for shortcuts and over-bitting. Its unfortunate.[/QUOTE]

Whose THEY? Upper-level riders? I think the cream of the crop are more known for realizing that there isn’t a one size fits all “set up” for every horse, and for availing themselves of available tools to help they horses do their jobs safely.

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=longtimelurker;8652962]
Whose THEY? Upper-level riders? I think the cream of the crop are more known for realizing that there isn’t a one size fits all “set up” for every horse, and for availing themselves of available tools to help they horses do their jobs safely.[/QUOTE]

to each their own. Not a fan of these “tools”. Many times it’s lack of interest in riding correctly. Do you see GM using these, no I don’t either.

“they” are in every discipline.

If a horse needs so much bit and tools to ride it to the jump and not die… is that really a horse I would trust jumping?
Personally, no.
Getting run away is a sign you need more flatwork, not more bit.
In dressage we can’t cheat like this, and I don’t have any interest if I could anyways. I know the tools to solve the problem don’t lie in tack.
I get that you have a hot OTTB that is fresh, that doesn’t’ change my answer. I’m not riding a sedate QH here, I get it. It’s about control and security. I don’t want to feel like i’m being dragged around, so I focus on my seat/core and communication. If I don’t have that, I don’t jump.

[Lord_Helpus]

Just because you have not seen GM using draw reins, doesn’t mean he does (did) not use them. He did when the horse needed it. Same with MW. Same with other top GP riders.

The difference between them and the rest of us is that they know when and how to use them.

Ronnie Mutch use to say that a Chambon in a beginner’s hands is like a razor blade in a monkey’s hands.

No one should use a gadget’ unless they have a totally independent hand, leg, and core. And unless they can ride in a pelham and keep each reins separate from the other, using each only when it is desirable. If the rider can do all these things, then he/she can be trusted to use a gadget appropriately ---- given correct training in how to use them.

Sadly I have seen some poor horses standing still with their heads pulled to their chests because the rider does not loosen her hands when the draw reins are not needed.

To the OP who says that he/she was brought up in the French tradition which spurns all use of ‘gadgets’ ------ Just what country created and first used the Chambon and the de Gogue? Those are French words — Given to ‘gadgets’ which came from France

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=sassymares;8652542]
I have been trained using the french philosophy of riding using the concept of riding with lightness. Being taught using draw reins/Chambons/DeGogues/etc. are bad things and should never be used, I recently watched some riders warming up before a Grand Prix and I was mortified to see some of the things these amazing riders have on their horses. I know that most, if not all, of these horses are very difficult and have a lot of power but still. A few days later I was thinking about it and gained some perspective. Yes, these riders are using “no-no” gadgets but if they are showing more successfully than me and everyone else in my barn they have to be doing something right.

Can anyone shed some more light on the subject? I am definitely willing to talk to my trainer about some of these ideas if someone gives me more information on this so that I’m not up a creek without a paddle. Thanks! I really just want to learn more and I’m not trying to cause drama.[/QUOTE]

I also ride with a no-gadget trainer, but when I look around at the other dressage riders in our barn, everyone uses side reins to get a head set, as a short cut. Gadgets are not “no-no” to most of the equestrian world, rather the opposite.

If you want the long, elaborate, explanation of why your trainer is no-gadget, and how your training system expects to achieve better results long term this way, then you need to talk to your trainer. And if your trainer can’t explain, then you need to talk to your trainer’s trainer.

You, and your trainer, should be choosing “no gadgets” as part of a training philosophy that knows how to replace the advantages of gadgets with the advantages of riding correctly. Just saying “gadgets are cruel,” then not knowing how to get excellent results without them, isn’t going to promote your own riding, or any general argument against gadgets.

The larger argument is not that gadgets are cruel, but that they tend to encourage shortcuts in training that do not allow the horse to develop correctly.

As well, if you really understand the “no gadget” program and techniques, then you will be better equipped if you ever come to the rare moment when you might actually need a gadget, temporarily, to solve a specific problem.

You will also be better able to look at another rider and see if their use of gadgets is justified or not.

[dani0303]

Have you guys ever sat on a Grand Prix horse? They’re a tightly wound ball of athleticism ready to explode over the fences at a moments notice. I have NO problem with riders using draw reins on these horses for a little extra control.

[foursocks]

This is a funny conversation, as it always is- and using the words “always” and “never” with horse simply indicates a lack of experience to me. Actually, PNWjumper said almost exactly what I would have said.

Also, de Nemethy- longtime coach and a huge influence on our show jumping USET- had his jumpers go in draw reins all the time. In fact, there is a picture of him sitting on a horse in them on the back of my copy of The de Nemethy Method.

[rollingabout]

Not all GP horses are a tightly wound ball that need gagets. I’ve sat on two and they were amazing to ride. Both went in a smooth snaffle too.

Each horse is different.

[equisusan]

I ride with a GP rider and we are pretty much a no gadget barn. Draw reins sometimes and for specific reasons but not on the GP horses that I’ve ever seen. I don’t think we own a chambon or degogue but we do own lots and lots of double jointed happy mouth snaffles.

The prep for the GP horses that I’ve seen is good flat work (lots of lateral work and collection and changes of pace), fitness building including swimming where necessary and some jumping exercises.

I’m not a fan of gadgets either so I’ve been very happy with my trainer’s philosophy.

I’ve ridden with another GP rider in the past and he was also not much into gadgets. I can’t speak to what he uses now but I’ve not seen anything odd on his upper level jumpers.

Nothing substitutes for good training IMO at every level.

[SuzieQNutter]

Sorry I didn’t read which forum it was in. The horse I lessoned on was a Grand Prix Dressage horse. Not jumping

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

As someone who rides a GP caliber horse, they tend to be tricky. ??

My mare has 3 setups and I am working on putting together a 4th. One to help her wait to the base, one to elevate the shoulder, and one to help with lateral flexion. Depending on how she rides it changes. She is incredibly smart so I have to stay one step ahead to keep her engaged. It also changes depending on if it’s the first class after weeks off or if we have been showing weekly.

The warmup ring is generally chaos and horses need to be incredibly obedient in an unpredictable environment. I’d rather have my backup breaks and not need them than need them and not have them. Especially when it is so easy to get distracted.

Many of these horses could lope around with looped reins and pop over fences calmly at home, but the atmosphere at a show is so stimulating that they are much more difficult to contain.

[ladyj79]

As someone who has spent a lot of time in the fei grand prix warm up, there are far far fewer “gadgets” than threads like this seem to suggest. There are a handful more in the schooling rings, and certainly I don’t know what everyone does at home.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: most riders at this level are exceedingly competent and knowledgeable riders. If they are using something there is a reason beyond “my (generally not a gp) horse doesn’t need it so neither should theirs” or “they are taking shortcuts.”

[fordtraktor]

PNWjumper, totally agree.

Also, it is better to have a bit that your horse responds to that a snaffle the horse ignores. In his book, GM writes about his "ride everything in a snaffle"phase. He had one! And what it taught him is that having kids ride in too mild a bit makes bad hands. FWIW, I totally agree with that assessment. You aren’t going to learn to ride with light hands if you are riding a freight train in a fat loose ring. It isn’t possible.