As a life long Doberman owner the fact that they face serious health concerns is not news to me. I have lost 4 in a row to DCM (ages 10, 6, 8 & 9). I am currently trying to decide where I get me next dog by researching longevity in bloodlines. Perhaps I am wasting my time.
So what can be done? More importantly what will be done? The amount of “bad” breeders outnumber those that try to breed responsibly by a long shot. Even the good breeders can’t make a difference. Will anyone attempt to breed a cross that maintains all that is inherently Doberman with some added longevity? If so how many generations would it take for an appreciable difference to be apparent?
Tragic. And terrifying if this is your breed. From reading the article, seems the situation is hopeless, and short of outcrossing, the breed will go extinct. And outcrossing, by default, will make the Doberman as we know it, no longer exist anyway.
Longevity doesn’t seem the issue, rather the preponderance of fatal genetic disorders. IOW, it’s not that they just want the breed to live longer, the desire seems to be to remove the fatal genetic defect from the breed–that goal appearing to be impossible.
I really love Dobermans and have always, always, always wanted one. I thought hard about trying to find one the last time I had an open dog slot to fill. But the health stuff, man. Always the health stuff.
(Of course the dog that I ended up adopting, whose primary breed is a relatively very healthy one, is now recovering from a TPLO. So it goes.)
My dog’s sire just died last week at the age of 10 because of DCM that came on out of nowhere and took him very quickly. My dog turns seven in a few weeks. I constantly have to remind myself to not look at him like he’s a ticking time bomb and treat him like the happy, vibrant boy he is…but it’s hard. My dog’s dam is 11 and doing well so far, so all I can do is hope that we’ll get to double digits. Hate this - he is my first Doberman, and I don’t know if I’ll do another after him because of this. It’s scary how many breeders knowingly breed to a top-winning sire whose father died at the age of 7/8 or earlier due to DCM. How can they bring those lives into the world, put them into homes who love them, and then look themselves in the mirror? Dobermans are such wonderful dogs, and something has to be done to save them.
I can’t open the link, so maybe there is info in there about the DPCA.
Are you a member of your breed parent club? (If not, you should join - this is what they need members for). They are researching DCM: http://www.dpca.org/breed/breed_health.htm
Unfortunately, the “bad” breeders always outnumber the good ones. The only real solution is education - to breeders, but also to buyers. This is why well-bred dogs cost more. Not to make breeders “get rich.”
My boy that I recently lost was 9.5 and by all outward appearances healthy as a horse. He woke up with that telling wet cough on a Saturday morning and was gone the following Wednesday. My previous Dobes have been part of the Doberman study at OVC in Guelph. I knew when they were in the early stages and was prepared. After 3 in a row I thought the odds were in my favour with him. I fed him the best and supplemented like crazy. He ran miles and miles every day. He was a fit machine. I took him to Guelph for a year or two and really felt he was going to be the one that beat the odds because at 4 they said his heart was perfect (I knew better…that doesn’t mean a thing but wanted to believe it so badly). He was also my dog of a lifetime. That morning when he woke up and coughed it broke my heart because I knew I was going to lose the best dog and friend I had ever had and once again it was going to be to this awful disease too soon.
I sincerely hope you get more time with your boy. I can’t say it is better having all the cardiac testing done and knowing ahead of time. Maybe the meds (Pimobendan, Lasix etc) can buy a bit of time but if that comes with never ending trips to the vet and sometimes a dog that doesn’t tolerate them well then I am not sure that is fair to the dog. The end result is always the same.
The one thing I will say about this disease is that the dog doesn’t suffer like with cancer and other disease. My boy spent his last day with us attacking his sprinkler, playing in the pool, chewing RMBs and cuddling with me like any other day other than occasional moments of coughing. He had some duck and a filet mignon last meal and I had my vet put him down in our living room. I am sobbing now even writing this but I knew that was the best for him even though I am still suffering mightily.
I said that I was done with Dobes after that so I understand what you mean when you say you may not want another. Yet here I am considering what breeder my next one will come from. They are unlike any other dogs and as much as I love my other dog it just is not the same without a big goofy Dobe in my home.
I think once you have owned a few Dobes and also lost a few to this disease it is almost a matter of the time you get with them being of enough value to justify the short life span. I believe good breeders truly love them as I do and breed knowing many (most?) will meet an early end but that it is just part of the deal. Even with all the diagnostics available you cannot detect or predict which dogs will get sick until they are at least 2. Many breeders are breeding a litter or even 2 by that age. The DNA test that is now available is not a predictor…homozygous dogs are dodging the bullet and heterozygous dogs are dropping dead at 6. It is such a small piece of the puzzle.
If what this woman says is true then it appears with no genetic diversity left and the possibility that ALL dogs have the gene in some way then its all for not anyways.
From what I read in the article, the problem is not isolated to “bad” breeders and “good” breeders have had zero effect on fixing the problem over decades. Per the article, education/well bred dogs is not the solution. Rather, seems it is an all encompassing, pure breeding problem in the Doberman. The only solution is outbreeding, aka crossbreeding. Correct me if I got that wrong from the article in the OP.
When I bought the Doberman I have now, I stayed away from show lines. I used to be a member of a Doberman group who were mostly breeders of show dogs and owners of show dogs. Someone once asked if the dog had one health issue but was perfect in every other way, if they would breed. I was a bit stunned at the number who would breed that dog.
After that, I would not believe they were breeding for the betterment of the breed.
Perhaps is just me but any large dog that lives older then 8-9ish has done pretty well. Kind of like how many horses only make it to their early 20’s but ponies usually live longer.
I am in no way downgrading how serious and unfortunate DCM is. I’m a human cardiac sonographer so I see it all the time. I also don’t believe it’s good breeders vs bad breeders. Most will have already bred the dog before it ever shows signs of a cardiomyopathy. By then you’ve got a couple litters out there who may not have kept in touch.
I’ve had Dobermans for the last 30 years. I’ve always had one or two. Mine weren’t bred to the nines - they were throw away dogs, in some cases, literally dumped at my farm. I’ve lost two to bone cancer, two to heart failure, one died in his sleep at 14, cause of death unknown.Another, my first, was put down basically because of multiple age-related complications. Bone cancer is the worst.
I can open the link now so let me read; for some reason it wouldn’t open or my computer was too slow this morning.
ETA: ok, interesting. I would be curious to hear the breed club’s opinion and/or different researchers’ opinions. Some of the information is from small studies, like the haplotype study from UC Davis - Dobermans were the worst of the 9 breeds studied, with only 71 dogs. I would have to read the study but I am curious how the 71 dogs were chosen, etc.
I am also curious about the statement: "Clearly, the efforts made by breeders over the last three decades to decrease the incidence DCM have had no effect at all on the prevalence of the disorder. Not even a little." I wonder how this was determined (e.g. was there a comparison of longevity between breeders that were actively selecting for longevity v. the general population?) I mean - obviously it doesn’t change the overall population, but was there really no difference if heart health and longevity were the focus of selection?
I’m mostly curious if there is agreement that the only solution is "The only hope for this breed is the initiation of a sound, comprehensive cross-breeding program."
A lot of these studies are frustrating…it’s hard to get funding, get samples, and then draw conclusions…and THEN get a breed club to act.
Depends who you ask. Breeders from both sides often point the finger across the pond. The trend toward NA breeders bringing Euro dogs over and breeding “European Dobermann” is increasing. These are not usually the most reputable types and not usually good lines. They often market their dogs as healthier than NA but there is often nothing to back this up and a quick check online either completely disproves their claims or provides no info. No health testing, no titles in work or show = bad breeder imo I don’t care what lines you are using.
The graph predicting 100% of Dobes having DCM by 2030 cites Euro dogs I believe.
There is a gene that never made it into the Dalmatian breed and its lack causes serious and deadly kidney failure problems. The Dalmatian Club of America allowed a very limited outcrossing to Pointers which do have the missing gene. For years there was controversy about whether the pointer crosses would be allowed after a certain number of generations–more than 8, IIRC. More than 10 years after the experimental dals were created, the DCA has finally decided to allow them into their studbook.
If such a program can work with Dalmatians, something similar could work with Dobermans. The will to try just has to exist.
Does DCM affect min-pins?
Gene editing techniques that are available today might be yet another method of proceeding if they can determine what genes are involved.
@vineyridge it has been going on for many years at OVC. There is also a US school doing similar work. The study in Guelph has existed for…I want to say 20 years?? Perhaps more? My childhood Dobe was accepted into it on a compassionate basis and that had to be 20 years ago.
If the situation is as bad and irreversible as the article says then I agree that outbreeding is the answer. My concern is that this exact article was posted on a very popular Doberman forum immediately when it hit the web and there has been next to no activity on that thread. Does this mean that the many breeders and enthusiasts that frequent that board just don’t want to even talk about it? Are we meant to just ride this out until the bitter end with our hands over our eyes?
I wish I had a boatload of $$ to throw at an outbreeding project and a few geneticists at my disposal because I surely would try. If a number of breeders and enthusiasts proposed a group effort I would be jumping right in. I am perplexed by the lack of discussion never mind activity.
The Chinook people are currently discussing how to implement an out-crossing program for their breed as well. They have a much smaller total population of dogs (maybe 2000 - 3000 total?) and they have done out-crossing programs in the past, I think in the 1980’s.
This is the introduction to their draft proposal - I just want to say: IT CAN BE DONE, if the people dedicated to the breed decide to do it.
Maybe they have stronger impetus to do it than the doberman folks, because of the very small total numbers of their breed, and maybe for the same reason (smaller number of enthusiasts) they are also likely to be more able to get folks on board.
PROGRAM OBJECTIVES:
◦ Develop and manage a sustainable gene pool for the Chinook
◦ Improve the health and longevity of Chinooks by reducing inbreeding
◦ Decrease average, entire pedigree (defined as 30 generations) COI of litters born
from 37.4% to below 15% by 2030
◦ Decrease average five generation pedigree COIs to 3% by 2030
◦ Increase effective population size as measured through the CPP pedigree
database from ~12 to 50 by 2030
◦ Identify other breeds/ breed types who can improve the temperament, working
ability, structure or appearance of Chinooks to better model the historical ideal
◦ Educate breeders and owners on population genetics (where/how their dogs fit)
◦ Provide tools to breeders to support better decision making in planning breedings
both for the individual dogs and for the breed
OVERVIEW:
The Conservation program will expand the Chinook gene pool by introducing
New Founders to the breed. These New Founders will be bred to excellent
examples of a purebred Chinook. Offspring may be bred to purebred Chinooks
and/or the offspring of other New Founders in the Conservation Program. The
COA Health and Genetics Committee has the sole discretion to both determine
the need for and number of New Founders, and solicit and approve New Founder
applications from COA Member Breeders.
Without knowing the gene involved it seems it would be pretty difficult to select against it, even with outcrossing to another breed. Since it doesn’t often express itself until after reproductive years, and it is apparently a dominant gene, you could end up with these half-breds still having and passing on the problem. And do they know if this genetic issue appears in other breeds that might be used to cross?
