I believe the wording of the MR rule (“Hip and shoulder on the ground simultaneously”) was so that horse slips-- where a hind end slides out around a turn on slick ground-- were not punished as a horse fall requiring Mandatory Retirement. I’ve seen a horse slip while turning on wet grass (well between fences) and it’s hip may have hit the ground. The rider slid off, unhurt and still holding the reins. She re-mounted and finished the course clear with no other issues. The horse was jumping great, just hit a slick spot and didn’t have the right studs. Such a horse “fall” is not terribly unusual; I think it also happened (to Ingrid Klimke?) in the 2004 Athens Olympics XC. A slip could still result in an injury, of course, but it should not be penalized or lumped together as a fence-related Fall Of Horse.
Would the same reasoning that EventingAJ mentioned apply to shoulders? And would either apply to a fall over a jump? Maybe the rules could differentiate between a fall on the flat and a fence related fall.
Just to nitpick one thing…their MR at Plantation that was listed as a RF was the very first one. So at that stage Rolex wasn’t in jeopardy because the second fall didn’t happen until 6 months later.
I also swear we’ve discussed this issue once before and Brian came on to comment.
It would seem that some 4* horses are so good, even repeated falls don’t get them out of the 4* line-up. They try too hard. There are several … recalling Andrew Hoy’s brilliant Moonfleet. I think it took 2 (3?) falls on 4* courses before the light went on.
I believe Groom&Taxi is at the crux of the matter. On more than one point.
As to 1), easy enough to re-visit the wording. Rules are tinkered with and improved constantly. Even giving the benefit of the doubt that the wording was intended only to be very clear, and there was no intention to avoid classifying horse falls as horse falls, as soon as it is so obviously determined that correct reporting was not the result, time to amend the rule.
But why has that adjustment to the rule not been done by our safety-minded USEA officials? Is it because having a handy out to assigning an MR has proved valuable, to certain people? Is it to conform to some FEI rule? Is it simply procrastination, oversight, even carelessness to putting a better, more correct definition to this critical rule?
And then there is other, deeper, root issue: Why “MR” instead of “HF” … from the beginning?
When I first started eventing of course I had to learn about the scoring, and The Dreaded Letter Score. :grief: At the time, when reading the results as one of the un-indoctrinated: What the heck is an “MR”?
Why not just record “HF = The Horse Fell” ??? In fact, at the time, RF was also classifed as “MR”. Why? This is obvious …
To the many un-indoctrinated observers of scores, “MR” is opaque. It is not obvious what happened. And back when RF was also scored as MR, and there was less live-streaming, and virtually no publication of fall photos, who the heck knew what a record with an MR was about … or cared, given they were relatively rare. Honestly, to this day there are LL eventers who don’t follow the UL’s who would understand a designation such as RF or HF, but wouldn’t know what “MR” means, as they have never have seen it at the local LL’s. (Yes, the sport is full of LL eventers who don’t follow the UL’s. 
Keeping in mind that much of this country does not have divisions higher than T.)
“MR” = Denial. And now, a rule is (probably unintentionally) composed so that even MR is avoided in the results. Leaving the rule as is, is just part of a culture of after-the-fact denial & cover-up.
[I][B]Why do some favor Denial? Well … that is a long, long tale … isn’t it … But fundamentally, it’s become part of the UL eventing culture. Because …
- bad public relations for the sport,
- avoiding reverse qualifications
- avoiding a muddy spot on a horse’s record
- keeping owners in the game
- enabling riders moving up to the highest levels on only one horse
… for all these reasons and more, the UL eventing sport would prefer that ‘horse fall’ is not so obvious after the fact. :yes:[/B][/I]
That is just my opinion, but one I hold fairly strongly, until TPTB show otherwise by their actions, not their words.
Exactly. And there is a rule that has successfully addressed that.
The same diligence needs to be applied to the rule re an actual, un-disputable fall of a horse. I give benefit of the doubt that the horse-fall rule was written without realizing the dynamics of a fall with a lot of forward motion, so that horse is tumbling, at least to some extent. That, understandably, someone didn’t realize that video analysis would give an out.
The rule needs to be tightened up. TPTB should not leave such a gaping hole.
Without disparaging Marilyn in any way, what happened with Demeter at Wellington was an incredibly dangerous fall. Honestly, viewing through livestream, I was very afraid of what we would hear about the outcome. Marilyn could have been crushed by horse-with-saddle rolling over her, as has happened to others with more unfortunate outcomes.
But that incident wouldn’t be classified a ‘horse fall’ at a USEA recognized event? Travesty.
Agreed. Anyone that follows online live scoring has seen MR’s become RF’s. It is happening after the scorers enter what the jump judge handed them.
I would really like to hear from each TD of an event where an initial MR became an RF exactly what led to that change, and who decided. Probably in some cases those were legitimate corrections. But I feel certain that some would have an interesting, if convoluted, story behind them.
Tightening up the wording, and the application, of this rule should be done on a post-haste, emergency basis. This is one of those chances to clean this up BEFORE something very unfortunate happens that has a public outcry about the *%&##@ rule that left the door open for something that dangerous, rightly or wrongly.
Yes, actually enforcing the rule is going to be PAINFUL from time to time for a BNR … and the horse owner. No doubts in this opinion, that the effect on the the horse owner is a big part of the denial/reluctance part of the problem. But re those reverse qualifications: That’s eventing. There are easier disciplines for those who can’t deal. And both horses and riders will be better protected … as was the original intent of the rule.
Well, I’ve known it to be reversed after a rabid rider flipped her lid. Made quite a stink. Quite horrifying & if she were in a kids sporting game would have been ejected. I don’t think it’s the wording, the wording & intent is clear (not to mention better safe than sorry), I think it’s riders/trainers protecting their record - and their horses. Can’t have a sale horse get a MR. Can’t loose qualifications. Etc etc.
As someone else said on this thread, the other reason for an MR is if a horse is caught in the jump and able to continue.
I have been on the losing end of arguing whether a horse fell or not at least twice as a volunteer.
In my opinion, anytime a horse falls - slips - slides - tumbles - goes down - loses their feet, whether haunch goes down, shoulder, belly, dirt on the girth as General Burton always used to say, either one or the other - wet grass slip, I don’t care whatever - IT IS A HORSE FALL.
Horses do not lose their feet, it’s against their nature, they want to stay upright as much as possible especially in the heat of the moment while competing. When a horse falls something has gone VERY WRONG. Yes even slipping in wet grass. It’s a competition, not turnout in a field. Horse Fall = Eliminated, Veterinary Exam Mandatory before re-entering the next recognized competition, period. Sick of this argument. No argument here at all, really. If we care for horses we have to stop making excuses for our goal driven blind ambition in eventing sport.
Do you mean that as a jump judge you call it a MR even if it clearly doesn’t meet the definition of a horse fall? I.e. the horse only goes down on its front end (goes to its knees) or hind end (basically sits)? If so, that could be part of the problem if there are jump judges being overly inclusive as to what they define as horse falls in clear contravention of the rules. IF there are enough JJ’s like that, it opens the door for riders whose horses actually fall (e.g. the two discussed in this thread) to argue the call because there’s a perception of over aggressive jump judges. If the rider is convincing enough and argumentative enough and BNR enough, and the photographic evidence has yet to materialize, they may convince the TD to overrule the jump judge. So please don’t do that.
If that’s not what you meant, then I apologize for the lecture.
The rules are the rules. Your opinion is not a rule.
I’m curious here… how many of us have experienced a horse fall (of Retread’s definition), maybe not even in competition? What happened after, did you “retire” or get back on and continue riding?
My horse fell landing in a water jump at Preliminary many years ago. It had rained the night before and washed a hole on the right side of the landing on the drop. Unknown to me, the horse two riders prior had also tripped and fallen, and another horse after me had the same problem. My horse “pancaked” on landing as he tried to get out of the hole, his knees and hocks folded and I rolled off the side. His face went under water briefly, but shoulder/hip didn’t hit the ground so it wasn’t MR. I had no idea what happened in the moment, but we got back up (soaking wet all over) and I re-mounted and continued (this was in 2002).
As a teenager, riding in a jump lesson in an arena, my horse took off way too long at an oxer and landed skidding on his knees and nose, I rolled off the shoulder. I got back on, but did not continue the jump lesson. Horse seemed ok, but had sand embedded in his noseband and small scrapes on a knee.
I’ve also had a horse fall on me while slow galloping in an open field. 3 y/o TB cantering along being silly, spooked at a bird and threw in a buck, lost his balance and stumbled to his knees, rolling on his shoulder. Got up, got back on, and he was much more focused and well-behaved after that.
I’ve seen a couple horses slip badly out hunting, sometimes riders coming off. Horses were caught, muddy riders remounted, and continued the hunt. It takes a lot to keep a foxhunter down!
I was also witness to a horse getting stuck in a XC fence at a CIC3*. He was straddling the front part of an oxer and horrifically flipped over the back rail trying to extricate himself (rider had already dismounted). He was alright, but definitely not fit to continue! I believe this was the original purpose of Mandatory Retirement, to cover any opportunity in which the pair is not eliminated per the rules (remember one Rider Fall was not elimination at that time) but for a situation in which they should not keep going.
I’ve had a handful of the kind of slips and trips you’re talking about, including one where a horse misread a ditch-- it was in shade and there was gravel before, in, and after the ditch and I think she just didn’t understand that it was a ditch and stepped in it and faceplanted, and a couple of horses without studs that slipped on wet grass/ hard ground-- one was actually in dressage, which is when I learned that fall in eventing dressage is not an elimination. I always check for injury and then remount. Whether or not I continue or just do a little light walk trot depends on how likely I think it is to happen again.
I’ve had my current horse slip twice 100% unrelated to jumping and fall. Once I continued because she jogged fine/instructor I was riding with the first and only time said so. The other (out hunting) she’d pulled a shoe/pad and I walked home. Witnessed similar things in USEA competition- lower level horses without studs just sliding around turns, land on their butt and quickly right themselves.
My horse in high school did an ill-advised XC exercise that involved jumping a bank and turning sharply on very dry footing with a pebbly surface to a stadium fence. She slipped and fell (not surprisingly in retrospect) and I hit my head pretty damn hard so I called it a day. She seemed just fine next time she was ridden. Though we were between two jumps the fall clearly related to the turn and not the jumping of the fences.
Also had a horse stumble on landing from a 2’6 stadium jump and fell to his knees. I came off but he got himself back up without fully falling hip + shoulder. Probably helped that my weight was off him! We kept going with the lesson once I was back on, mostly under instructor pressure (HJ land).
I encourage everyone to read on Instagram @toplineleather response to my comment about my disappointment in them
sponsoring ML.
Keeping to the original recent question. I had one horse fall on xc. My horse ran at a Training jump that was the back side of the fence ie the wrong direction. He locked on, I pulled him past it and he tried to jump a shrub and we hit it and rolled over. I retired that horse the next year.
This is where I do think that the rewording of the rule could be important. I disagree with what someone else said above that horses “don’t fall in the heat of the moment” - I think any number of things could make a horse fall and it is not always because something went horribly wrong. I do, however, think that if a horse falls (And I don’t just mean the ip& shoulder fall) out on XC, that it should be grounds for immediate retirement - we would have to reword the rules in a way that distinctly separates it from an MR, but when horses slip or fall, chances are they can get really, really hurt – and it might not be evident until their adrenaline wears off.
I am so lucky I have not yet had a horse fall on course, but I have had a few horse falls riding. One was during an XC school and it was a full wipe-out – we landed from a fence in fine form, went to perform a mild roll-back and the horse lost his footing underneath him and ski-ed for about five feet. I managed to stay on during this, but he nearly broke my ankle in the process. His hip hit the ground and he had grass stains on his hip/hock/legs, but his shoulder never met the ground. I retired immediately and he had a week off, despite trotting off immediately sound. The next day he was incredibly sore to the point where the vet was called.
Last year, my current project had a similar wipeout in a grass ring, we were schooling dressage. Nothing special, no jumps, he just lost his footing and kapow, I was suddenly standing on my feet holding the reins and the horse was on the ground, hip & shoulder. He also had a week off. He seemed fine the next day, but I won’t take any chances. This is the same horse that in October broke his pelvis (in two places) and his rib in wipeout. I am always surprised people continue to ride horses after they fall - they are so heavy, and their parts so fragile in relation to their weight, that I am really surprised to see many horses walk off a major crash (Demeter included).
I guess it really boils down to horsemanship though. I’ve been in a similar situation as Jealoushe where I had a horse hit a fence hard, nearly flip in the process but landed without falling - and I’ve always, always retired if they had serious contact with a fence. That stuff hurts - I stub my shin on a trailer hitch and I gimp for a week - I cannot imagine hitting something solid at 25-30mph.
@Jealoushe, I don’t have a (an?) instagram - what was said if you don’t mind quoting?
For those asking for the quote from instagram:
- toplineleather@jealoushe @rheventer When I was first considering sponsorship, I asked friends who have been in the eventing world for decades (since I came from h/j land in the Midwest) and they thought it was a good idea and she would represent my brand well. I have heard in the last year that there had been some concerns, but have noticed that her horses have been going in D-bits this year, which seems to be a step in the right direction. And she has the faith of the O'Connors, whose opinions I highly value. I sponsor many other eventing riders (Lainey Ashker, Hawley Bennet, Lauren Billys, & Caitlin Silliman) as well as individual events like Southern 8ths, as I have always been a fan of eventing and want to help support the sport. I realize not everyone will be fans of all the riders I sponsor, and I certainly welcome all opinions and viewpoints.
Although I’ve never experienced a MR as a JJ, I have experienced a refusal and BNR getting angry about it. It was a bank down, hard to call those ones, but still, the horse stepped back, and this rider denied it… said it was not a refusal. I can only imagine what some BNR’s would do with an MR beside their ride. Its a shame that these people get like this.
I’d like to know how any has a bad fall and gets right back at the same level without issues.
I had a near miss MR, It was boggy, my horses legs just didn’t seem to get out of the mud quick enough to get up and over a roll top, causing him to roll onto the fence, and shoot me forward over the fence. It was quite painful, luckily my horse was okay, had a nice run back to the trailers, but after seeing the video, he definitely hit the jump hard. Going back out schooling after that was hard alone with our confidence. It amazes me that anyone would head right back out easily to that height of a level. At the time mine was just Training level, I couldn’t imagine a 3*!
So what do we need to do to propose a rule clarification to USEA? Can someone write it up and post it online somewhere so several of us can sign it? I can’t imagine why anyone would be opposed.
So Athletux represents ML, well that’s rather disappointing to see that.
