If those “Grade I” races she’s been running in in CA the last 2 years were “at her level”, then you’ve made my point for me.
Her Grade I wins include going to Oaklawn to challenge the reining champion (Ginger Punch), winning the Distaff and winning the Breeder’s Cup Classic. She topped it off by loosing the Classic by a long nose at the age of 6. That was the WORST finish of a 3 year career.
You’re telling me that was easy!!! Where are all these other horses that racked up a record like that?
I’m not saying she could out-run Secretariat, Man O War, or the Bid, I don’t think she could. But easy? Get real.
This is a mare. A mare that won the Classic in '09. Heck, her worst finish is better than the best of most mares on dirt.
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[QUOTE=NCRider;5225780]
If those “Grade I” races she’s been running in in CA the last 2 years were “at her level”, then you’ve made my point for me.[/QUOTE]
Yes, yes they were. Blame ran in less Grade 1 races than Zenyatta and he didn’t win them all. So I guess they’ve been holding him back also? And I think her trainer has a better idea of what is at her level then you or I do. And last time I checked it’s not a crime to enter a horse in a race they have a chance of winning. If you were a trainer would you enter a horse in a race you know is above their level and that they had no chance of winning? I’m not trying to be nasty but get real. How many other mares do you know that have gone 19 to 19 and won the Breeders Cup? None. So that just shows you how “easy” it is.
Can I call nonsense? Do you actually campaign race horses or just watch it from your couch?
I’ve run horses in double digit races so far this year and my barn has been so good at spotting that we have a perfect ITM %. But we didn’t win all those races nor are we running at the Grade 1 level. The difference between a winners purse and a second is 40% of the purse and if you think people aren’t trying to win at all levels, you don’t understand the sport. The perfect laboratory for your thesis is the Northern California circuit where you have horsemen like Hollendorfer and Morey owning a big chunk of what they run and dropping horses to get wins. Even while having that advantage and the flexibility that comes with it, they might manage 30% wins if they are having a particularly hot meet but usually it is closer to 1 in 4 races that they win. To win 100% of the time at the Grade 1 level 3 years running is unprecedented.
Sorry I just couldn’t let that pass…
Of course it’s hard to win a lot of races in a row. But it’s a lot less hard if you’re running below your level. That’s the whole basis of our claiming system in the US. People don’t normally run healthy sound unsour horses for extended periods of time well below their level of talent (unless they’re looking to extend a winning streak :)). If they’re claimers running too low, they get claimed and moved up. If they’re allowance horses running too low, the owner asks the trainer, why is my horse running in a $60,000 allowance race when there’s a $150,000 stakes race on the same day.
Do you honestly believe that if you took 5 very good Grade I male horses, that with a bit of luck in terms of soundness, you couldn’t keep a couple of them undefeated for 3 years against allowance horses?
Why thank you, I accept with thanks.
However, I should point out that total is pretty much the same as a Grade 1 Restricted at the home track race record when compared to the really great posters over on Eventing and H/J with 30k+posts…and in less then the almost 10 years I have been on here.
I’m sorry, I usually don’t pick on spelling but…that is some visual:lol::lol:.
Anyway, Cigar won 18 straight but…there was no attempt to claim he beat the best out there the last year or so. More a victory tour of different tracks so folks could see him-as I did at Suffolk Downs. He is rarely mentioned anymore.
Queen Z is good for the sport. Even if she has a good press agent and high profile owners. Just that, even in winning the BC last year, RA won multiple races, including a TC Classic, against colts and was female HOTY as Goldikova probably will be this year.
I figured that the Queen was fed reining horses for breakfast … :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=Flashy Gray VA;5226784]
I figured that the Queen was fed reining horses for breakfast … :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol: No, it was the conditioning. You know, running those large fast circles ;). VERY large fast circles.
Cigar only won 16 in a row.
I’m wondering why no one else ever thought of dropping their horses down so that they could win ALL their races! Geez, NCRider, you’re a genius!
Other than breaking her maiden, what allowance races did Zenyatta run in? I could have sworn she ran in all Grade I’s in 2010.
Are you really that obtuse? People don’t drop claimers too low because they don’t want to lose them and they don’t drop stakes horses because of prestige and $$$$. You don’t think people would run horses too low just to win regularly. OK, get rid of the claim. Take a bunch of $25k claimers and a couple of allowance geldings. Assume for argument’s sake that they’re all sound. Now give only one of the allowance horses the right to run in the $25,000 races for a period of time without the risk of being claimed. He’ll clean up. And you’d find that a lot of owners would be willing to cash a practically guaranteed $16,000 check every couple of weeks.
Z has the talent of a top GI male handicap horse but runs with G3/Allowance Mares. (And please don’t reply that those races had a GI beside them. Running in a GI doesn’t make those mares GI mares). That is the #1 reason for the streak. Most of her races, she can bring her C game and win. If you’re racing against your peers, you can’t have a bad day and win. To me, the streak is interesting but not that relevant in judging her overall level of talent. To do that you have to look to her BC races and the first trip to Oaklawn.
[QUOTE=NCRider;5227214]
To do that you have to look to her BC races and the first trip to Oaklawn.[/QUOTE]
Uh, okay. Win, win, win, hard-charging second after an arguably not-the-greatest ride against a VERY strong field.
Not to mention–planes go TO California, as do many major highways. If Zenyatta was really just a HUGE fish in a teeny pond who would get picked off easily by “real” class, why didn’t anyone ship their “real” Grade I horses out to meet her? Especially this year, with the record on the line. Why did Rachel Alexandra’s connections chicken out instead of making a race of it?
People who are racing claimers drop them all the time to start earning money. Heck, pay five minutes’ attention on TVG and you’ll hear “drop in class” mentioned quite often. You do not stay in the business long if you try to hang onto horses by avoiding claiming races or running the horse beyond his capabilities. (And in your hypothetical if that $25k horse is in with $25k claimers, maybe he cleans up. Maybe not. Depends on who he meets going up or down and the conditions on the day. I’m not going to run my $25k “allowance” horse against a $40,000 claimer with a solid record.)
Why is it so hard for you to accept that 19 straight is NOT easy, no matter what company you’re in?
FWIW solid $25K claimers are usually allowance horses who lost their conditions. In optional claimers, the toughest horses are more often than not the ones in for the tag because they burned through their conditions beating up on straight allowance horses.
Zenyatta won several million dollars doing what you believe is easy. If you have the secret, why isn’t Darley and Winstar beating a path to your door? Why don’t they send their third string fillies out to pick up the easy money? A Grade 1 stakes placing can bump up a filly’s residual value $250-500K depending on her pedigree not to mention the good things that happen to the page; the mare and her babies.
The truth is that Zenyatta towered over the division to the point that no one else could get much traction and no one back East seemed that interested in taking her on when there were more promising races elsewhere that didn’t have Zenyatta.
[QUOTE=NCRider;5226376]
Do you honestly believe that if you took 5 very good Grade I male horses, that with a bit of luck in terms of soundness, you couldn’t keep a couple of them undefeated for 3 years against allowance horses?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I actually think it would be difficult to keep them undefeated because horses have their good and bad days, and other factors come into play- track conditions, the pace of the race and luck (post position, traffic, etc.) A horse getting beaten by a lesser caliber horse happens all the time- there is nothing unusual about it.
So the fact that Zenyatta could win that many races is pretty amazing. Granted, if she’d raced more frequently against higher quality horses (I would call Grade I colts more her equal than the Gr. 2 and 3 and allowance fillies and mares that she mostly ran against), the possibility of defeat would have been more likely. I think the undefeated streak was the most important thing to her connections.
If you think that HOY is an award for lifetime achievement, then the vote should go to Z. But if its just for performance in 2010, theres really no case to be made for her.
I think to fully appreciate Zenyatta you have to look at her whole career. Each year by itself was not that amazing, considering she rarely left California and did not have the most stellar competition, but when you look at her overall career, its definitely incredible.
I see this observation a lot online and I guess I would agree with it if she ran in the Ladies Classic 3 straight years. But sending a mare in to face males in the BC Classic 2 years in a row is an audacious act by historical standards. Look at Personal Ensign’s record again and tell me her PPs aren’t comparable to Zenyatta’s without the BC races–and then Zenyatta took bigger swings.
Until Zenyatta, sending any female to race in the BC Classic was very seldom done and the best result was Jolypha who finished third. Now Zenyatta doing it twice (with a win and a second) is discounted because her connections were just too cautious.
Alternatively you can look at it with the knowledge that you just can’t make a horse peak every time and the connections preserved her by managing her career intelligently. Every good trainer does it–check out some of the races by Cigar and Spectacular Bid who didn’t face monsters every time.
Very well stated, thank you. Taking the time to research the records of the historical greats, I haven’t found one that chased the toughest competition every time. All of the true greats I’ve studied wound up running against lesser individuals, if they could get anyone at all to put a horse in the race with them.
I agree Zenyatta’s talent was on a par with the best colts and racing against them more often would have been great for the sport. But I don’t see where she in any way failed to prove her greatness and she’s done more to transcend the industry and bring positive attention to horse racing than any horse since Cigar.
It took the three year campaign for the mainline press to get interested. They got interested because of the 19-0 streak of the defending BCC champ. They still pretty much ignored Goldi. The Zenyatta team did the industry the biggest favor they could in keeping that streak alive.
I don’t agree with the “greatest of all time” nonsense. I didn’t agree with that when Jess Jackson claimed it for Curlin. I can still appreciate the unique talent and charisma Zenyatta and her team brought to racing. She’s a great, great race mare and she gave the US industry a much needed shot in the arm.
Why complain?
One of those “lesser” mares that Zenyatta beat (more than once) was Life is Sweet, who won the 2009 Grade 1 Ladies Classic. Switch is no slouch either. Finished a good second in one of this years cup races. Ginger Punch was a solid grade 1 mare.
Her win in the 2009 BCC was so impressive because of the ease in which she did it. She blew by Gio Ponti. He in turn finished a good 2nd to Goldikova this year. And we all know what a good mare Goldi is. So, really. Though not running against the best male horses everytime out, she has faced some dam* nice horses and beat all but one.
Lookin at Lucky, Einstein, Summer Bird, RVW, etc
Some people on this board act like she is a glorified allowance horse. What a bunch of BS.
I think her trainer and owners were able to be so successful with her due to the fact that they didn’t use her up. Showed up for the big dances at the Breeders Cup, ran her against the fillies/mares the rest of the time. I think her campaign and the way she was managed was a big part of her success AND soundness. A certain other HOY filly was not so lucky. Too many tough races in a row and didn’t hold up to it. Would have loved to see what that one could have done with Shirreffs.
I still can’t believe that Shirreffs did not get the trainer award in 2009. How many trainers have won the BCC and Ladies Classic the same year. He is brilliant and great for the sport. As are the Moss’ . True horsemen that really care for their animals. We need more like them.
[QUOTE=jolise;5227987]
Some people on this board act like she is a glorified allowance horse. What a bunch of BS. [/QUOTE]
No, I think you’ll find fairly universal agreement that she’s probably the single best horse in the world at the moment, and has been if not the best, at least one of the top five for the last couple of years. But see, some of us I guess are kind of weirdos, in that we like to see the single best horse in the world running against the other best horses in the world, if not every time they set foot on the track, as least most of the time. Zenyatta has spent the majority of her career running against powder puffs in SoCal.
Ouija Board didn’t take the easy route and spent most of her career running against females that she towered over, she ran against the best males around the world, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, in such top grade races as the Prince of Wales G1, Eclipse G1, Coronation Cup G1 (England), the Prix de l’ Arc G1 (France), the Sheema Classic G1 (Dubai), the Irish Champion Stakes G1 (Ireland), the Japan Cup G1 (Japan), the Hong Kong Vase G1 and QEII G1 (HK).
Likewise Pride didn’t spend her career beating the crap out of fillies and mare, which she could easily have done, she went out and raced the boys in the Champion Stakes G1 (twice), the Prix de l’Arc G1 (three times), the Hong Kong Cup G1 (twice), the Prix Foy G1, the Grand Prix the Saint Cloud etc etc.
Sunline… jesus, she ran in open company how many times? Too many to count. In Aus, Dubai, HK. Won two Cox Plates G1 (Australasia’s BC Classic), and was pipped on the line for a THREE PEAT.
Makybe Diva… do we really need to list her achievements? G1s from 7f to 2 miles in open company against males. Not only winning 3 Melbourne Cups in succession, but won the last one after winning the Caulfield Cup G1 AND Cox Plate AND Melbourne Cup G1 (Australia’s three greatest races) in the space of four weeks… in open company, against males, carrying top weight, i.e spotting weight to males in her last race.
Any one of those mares could have taken the easy route and racked up massive win streaks in restricted distaff company. And we’re not talking distant memory of some by gone era here, they all ran in the last 10 years.
So yeah, to have the greatest horse currently racing, and only race her in your own back yard in restricted company… can’t say I’m hugely impressed with that campaign.
Point taken but that has always been a European tradition to run fillies against boys and not an American one. Did Azeri face males more than once? Bayakoa? Ruffian? Serena’s Song? Desert Vixen? Our Mims? Even Winning Colors ran exclusively against females after the TC races as did Genuine Risk.
The kind of campaign that Zenyatta’s critics clamored for was simply unheard of for a modern American older female racer and then she was criticized for not doing it. Even the great Shuvee only ran against males 5 times in 44 starts and the rest of the time she was running in races like the Bed o’Roses, the Gallorette and the Vagrancy etc.
So its a little disingenuous for the critics to change the goalposts after Zenyatta came onto the scene. What the connections chose to actually do is pretty historic. What some people wanted them to do was unprecedented at least in the US.
[QUOTE=jolise;5227987]
I think her trainer and owners were able to be so successful with her due to the fact that they didn’t use her up. Showed up for the big dances at the Breeders Cup, ran her against the fillies/mares the rest of the time. I think her campaign and the way she was managed was a big part of her success AND soundness.[/QUOTE]
Point–if we go back and look at the old champions (I mean when we start getting back to Citation and earlier)–was every race they ran in the absolute best against the best? (Leaving out Man o’ War as there simply wasn’t a horse who could stay with him after a certain point.) Did they have the top horses running at each other late 2/early 3 years chasing big purses to earn into the Derby?
And if Zenyatta was ducking the strong females–who are they? Should she have tried turf and run against Goldikova? She went to Oaklawn, on dirt, and anyone who claimed Cali was too far or I Hate Synthetics ™ could have met her there. The Mosses didn’t hand-pick her fields.
How does a musician or actor promote themselves to stardom?
Starts with SOME kind of talent…a lot of good PR and promotion…selects songs/scripts that will highlight the best in them…and once they start to catch on in the publics sights…they stay in the spotlight by giving a hell of a show or a movie that left you with goosebumps.
The Beatles, Robert Redford, Michael Jackson, James Dean, Marylin Monroe, Grace Kelly, Will Smith, Denzel Washington, Johnny Dep, …we remember them becauuse of thier STARDOM!
This does not mean at the same time that there was no other people searching for the fame…but ONE stood out among MOST…
Zenyatta will be remembered not just by those of us who follow racing, but by ANY person who’s heart rate went up when they saw her race…
Her “movie” left us with goosebumps and her “songs” we will sing forever
ALL of the horses that are up for HOTY have in some way deserved to be there…they are all amazing athletes… but I can say…in 15 years if someone asked me about a race horse that changed my outlook…I will remember Zenyatta’s name…
