Green Horse Ignoring Rein Aids to Turn/Not Following His Head -- Help?

[necryptonix]

My 3 year old TB is very, very green, but he understands the basics of turning and stopping. But if he sees something across the arena he wants to look at, he completely abandons whatever you’re working on and goes to that end of the arena to look. He’s not rearing, bucking, etc. He just completely ignores the aids to turn and practically leg yields to wherever he wants to go. You’ll have a leading rein, outside leg, and bearing rein, but he still just keeps going wherever. He will bend his neck for you every time, even touch his side with his nose, but he just will not follow his head and neck if he sees something he’d rather be doing. It’s like he has a rubber neck that isn’t actually connected to the rest of him! He escapes right through his shoulder.

Bit-wise he has a loose ring happy mouth shaped mullen. He understands the concept of contact and will seek it. He doesn’t stick his head in the air when he gets resistant, he tends to lean on the bit and drop his head if he really doesn’t want to do something. I don’t want to ruin his inclination to seek the contact, so I’m trying to minimize the tug of war he starts when he refuses to steer where you want him to go. I’ve tried adding more variety to the work to keep him interested (ground poles, cones, upright poles to weave through, etc.) Also, we’ve only been riding him at the walk because if he doesn’t steer at the walk there’s no point in trying to steer at the trot or canter where things will only get more dangerous with the lack of control.

I’ve tried working him in an indoor arena with all the doors closed = minimal distractions, I’ve tried riding him in a small space (round pen), but he just does the same thing and will often end up nearly scraping you off because he wants to be right on the fence and you can’t always convince him to steer away from it. I’ve tried busy large outdoor arena, quiet outdoor arena. Lately I’ve had a more advanced rider on him, but he does the same thing to her. I’m trying to seek out a professional trainer to help, but I can’t find any in my area in my price range (Northwestern Ohio area). I have a feeling this situation is going to end with a big blow up fight if I bring a crop out, so I’m trying to avoid that if possible but I’m beginning to think it’s the only way. I want him to enjoy his job, but no one is happy if he doesn’t follow the simplest directions.

When he’s in a good mood though, he can do figure eights, go over ground poles, rein-back, weave through poles, etc. He knows what we want from him, he just doesn’t always want to do it when there’s other interesting things. Long story short, my horse is lazy and easily distracted and has figured out he doesn’t actually have to follow his head and neck if he doesn’t want to.

Advice?

[Bellathemustang]

I actually rode a horse like this in a lesson. He has a habit of heading to the center of the arena. He will do the same thing, just throw his shoulder and bulldoze through my aids to get to where he wants to go. He was easy enough to break of it, it was a lesson, and my instructor was having me ride him to get experience working through it.

This is what worked for us:
*SOOOO much leg. Seriously, wear field boots. The tightest calf you have, it will make the over the top leg use bearable. I visualized pushing his body back in line with his neck/head.
*Couple that will rein “bumping” to get his neck and head to straighten out with his body. Not steady pressure on the rein, but just a consistent bump, bump, bump until you have a straight horse going in the direction you want. Then obviously release

My first thought if I was riding a horse like this alone would have been tight circles in the opposite direction the horse wanted to travel. But the above is what my trainer had me do and it totally worked! I dont think a crop would help as much as spurs, since the leg pressure is the main focus to straighten that body out.

This horse was there for training to overcome that issue, and I am a newer rider, so if we can do it anyone can He was going great after about 15/20 min of working to straighten him out. The rest of the ride was a blast.

[Dressage_Strider]

Work on a 20-30m circle. Keep your outside leg consistent and on him, just feeling his side, and your outside rein contact on, just feeling his mouth. Tell him to get off of your inside leg by pressing him off and into your outside rein and leg that are there waiting for him. When he decides, “I want to leave the circle” instead of pulling his nose to the inside of the circle and thereby opening his outside shoulder entirely, close the outside. Start with that outside leg pressing (in a press release fashion) increase to a KICK KICK KICK. The second he responds, release that outside pressure, sigh, pet. He will more than likely pause for .2 seconds, and then continue trying to leave through that shoulder since that has worked in the past. Repeat this several times - I’m talking 15 times of getting a successful step of him NOT running through the outside shoulder. Then stop. Get off and do something else.

This horse would benefit from being told “no” in a situation that is easier for you to win. Lunge him with loose side reins on so you have that outside rein. Work on him moving his shoulders from the ground with turn on the haunches and turn on the forehand.

[Mondo]

Because he’s so young and so green, I am wondering if you did any long-lining with him before you started under saddle work? As Bella and Strider pointed out - it’s not the rein aids that he’s blowing off, it’s your leg. But if he really doesn’t have that great a grasp of your steering, that can be fixed with long lines. He can’t just get distracted and leave like that in hand and will be easier to correct and you have an outside rein to get him to start listening to.

That said, I’m with Strider, you need to get control of his outside, so use your LEG to get him off that side and stop trying to take over.

[MissAriel]

Along with everyone else mentioning outside leg, carrying a dressage whip on the outside to tap the outside shoulder if he blows off the outside leg aid makes it very clear that the shoulder must follow.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Do some in hand work to establish dominance.
This doesn’t mean beating or shouting at your horse.
it means using the aids to make the horse move.
you don’t have to chase him around the arena waving flags and sticks and plastic bags either.
Just use your halter and lead rope and your whip.
The whip is not for punishment. It is to reinforce the leg aid.
The dominant horse is the one who can make the other horse move.
So…
When you want the horse to move laterally tap the horse on the girth he should move away.
if he doesn’t use the whip just enough to make him understand he is to move when you ask.

do this in both directions.
Have him back a couple of steps and then halt, Make him wait a few seconds before you move on just so he understands that he is to wait for you.

This shouldn’t take long. Horses expect to either lead or be lead.

He is only 3 and they have the attention span of a gnat.
Don’t drill and drill.
pick some exercises to do and once he responds correctly go do something else.
And get of the ring.
Go on a little walk outside of the ring if it is safe to do so.
Do some hill work if you have the opportunity.

Also don’t be afraid to correct him. I believe you may be a little tentative with him because you may be afraid you might provoke a reaction you can’t handle.

Hope this helps.
Good luck

[necryptonix]

@Dressage_Strider

Work on a 20-30m circle. Keep your outside leg consistent and on him, just feeling his side, and your outside rein contact on, just feeling his mouth. Tell him to get off of your inside leg by pressing him off and into your outside rein and leg that are there waiting for him. When he decides, “I want to leave the circle” instead of pulling his nose to the inside of the circle and thereby opening his outside shoulder entirely, close the outside. Start with that outside leg pressing (in a press release fashion) increase to a KICK KICK KICK. The second he responds, release that outside pressure, sigh, pet. He will more than likely pause for .2 seconds, and then continue trying to leave through that shoulder since that has worked in the past. Repeat this several times - I’m talking 15 times of getting a successful step of him NOT running through the outside shoulder. Then stop. Get off and do something else.

This horse would benefit from being told “no” in a situation that is easier for you to win. Lunge him with loose side reins on so you have that outside rein. Work on him moving his shoulders from the ground with turn on the haunches and turn on the forehand.

I love your advice, and I will definitely try that! I agree that the outside leg is the problem, because he doesn’t respect that cue at all, even with kicking. My friend resorted to pony-kicking with the outside leg and all he did was glare and keep sidling off. Thanks to your responses helping me clarify the problem, I have a new question.

How can I teach him to respect the leg cues more? When I got him he either didn’t understand the leg cues at all, or is so resistant to it that he made it appear as though he didn’t understand them. I’m not sure which. Either way, we still have to use voice cues sometimes to tell him to go forward because he ignores the legs as much as he can. Turning off the legs is still a totally foreign thing to him, not for lack of trying on our parts.

Should I try having my friend on him at a halt, and then have me on the ground to “translate” the leg aids by cuing him to yield his shoulders or hindquarters after she’s given the leg aids until he understands that’s what those aids mean?

He was an OTTB, technically – he trained but he never raced. So I didn’t break him under-saddle, but I have been considering going back and doing some ground driving for the exact reason Mondo stated. But since I’ve personally never ground driven a horse before, and I’m not sure if he himself has ever been ground driven, I’m trying to find a professional who can help with that.

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen I completely agree with your groundwork suggestions. He and I did 3 months of ground work before I ever put a saddle on him, just round penning and teaching him the voice aids, stop, change direction, yield the hindquarters, back up, etc. He’s great on the ground – by far the quietest horse I’ve ever handled and that’s saying something. He’s quiet enough that even with my broken wrist I can lead him around the farm, trailer him, and round pen him easily. The problem starts when someone is in the saddle. It’s like as soon as he feels someone on his back he just shuts down and doesn’t want to do ANYTHING. It doesn’t help that with me sidelined (injury) and watching, he constantly just drags his rider over to me and I end up having to chase him off again. I always am sure never to keep his rides any longer than 20 minutes. They’re usually only about 15 mins long. Since I can’t trust him to steer, I don’t trust him outside of the arena where he can get tangled up in things and get us both hurt. He’s not spooky at all, so I know he’d make a great trail horse. I myself am pretty good about correcting him, but because my friend is riding him I don’t want her to get hurt riding my horse while I’m healing up.

[Dressage_Strider]

hmmm you just changed this from an interesting situation, to an unwise one.

If you are injured currently, I would suggest sticking with groundwork until you are back in the saddle. Expecting someone who is essentially doing you a favor, to put themselves in a trainers position is a bad idea. And if they are inexperienced to the point of not wanting to correct a green horse, they are actually teaching him to be stronger and say ‘no’ harder. You will end up making a dangerous horse if you’re not careful.

With him only being 3, lunging in side reins and teaching him turn on the hindquarters are some awesome ways to teach him to yield the shoulders, without creating habits of essentially running away with the rider.

(note - I am being so insistent because the last horse I worked with that learned he could run through the shoulder became a rear-er. He learned that if you blocked the way he wanted you to go, he could win by rearing and jumping sideways in that direction. Gets the job done no matter how hard your outside aide is.)

[alibi_18]

Your horse is bored and annoyed.
And he’s find the right way to make you upset, which is not good while training youngster. Never get upset, it is YOUR fault if he’s acting up. YOU need to come up with solutions. That’s the fun part of training youngster. It’s not against you, it’s a mind game and you have to find a way to solve all the little problems he’s throwing at you. He’s looking for questions and answers. See this as a game. Redirect his attention and energy. Be firm but you need to know what you are doing… which you don’t seem to know…

He’s 3. He hasn’t mastered steering yet, you have to teach him everytime you’re on him. (or someone else is on)

Racehorses aren’t trained to do small circles and all much… They mainly go straight, walk, trot and canter. 15-20 minutes of walking is LONG and BORING.

Find yourself a reputable trainer and stick with longeing for now.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP First of all stay safe. Don’t try to do anything until your wrist is completely healed.

if I read your op correctly your horse does understand to move off the leg.
But only when he wants to. Nope nope nope.

I agree with the poster who said you shouldn’t let someone else ride him if they can’t handle him. It’s just going to make it harder for you.

if your horse is constantly loosing focus then you need to do things that challenge him.

Do serpentines make frequent changes of direction giving him something to focus on
namely you.

you may want to check your focus also. Do you get distracted easily? He may be picking up on that.

You may want to consider taking him on a walkabout before you ride,
I started doing that a few months ago with my horse and I think it has a difference for both of us.
We go for a walk around the stables and I let him check out everything as we walk. He gets to stop and take a whiz if he needs it . We walk around the paddocks so he can see what his buds are doing he can check out the woods and see if there are any horse killing wild turkeys . Then we trot uphill in hand toward the arena just to let him stretch his back and neck.
Understand this is part of his work but this way he can orient himself and have a gentle warm up so he is ready to work. We don’t lolly gag around. I expect him to obey me and he isn’t allowed to stop and graze. I do let him stop and look but then he has to move on.

Also you may want to go on YouTube and search for Warwick Schiller videos. He is a western trainer but I have seen him work with English riders as well.

Good luck

[RedHorses]

Your horse lacks the forward off the leg association. It’s probably not even about moving off one leg or the other. Most green horse straightness issues at this stage are lack of forward and too much side to side steering.

Point to point exercises might help. Pick a point across the arena, and Go! to that point with as big a walk as you can get. Then stop, pat, and pick another point. Try trotting. Light, even contact, and Go! If he wobbles, go forward more. If he rubbernecks, bring his nose in front of his body and Go!

Forward. Train forward. Use the lightest aid you can and get a good response, but be increasingly insistent about the Go! It is not optional.

[CERT]

As others noted, this isn’t really a rein aid problem.

Personally, I don’t like a horse “just following his nose” as this can complicate things in later training. I like to be able to ask for flexion in both directions without it affecting the track of the horse’s feet. This tells me the horse is balanced and supple in his body.

More bend, as you have found, does not equate more turn. Any turn should have uniform bend from nose to tail whether it is a 20m circle or a pirouette. Because the neck is so much more flexible than the ribcage and lumbar, this is where most of the overbent problems occur, that and our tendency to have grabby hands. When the neck starts to bend more than the rest of the body the body often continues to track “straight” where his chest is pointed.

As noted above, using the outside rein is essential in preventing the horse from overbending so that your leg aid can go through his body. To me the reins do not ever ask the horse to GO anywhere. They are a shaping and slowing aid. They control from the shoulder to the nose and can help create flexion in the neck (both longitudal and lateral) and slow down the front end so that the hind end can step further under the body and engage. Yes the rein can point the nose in a direction, but it can’t send the body there so you have to be sure that your leg aid is active and effective.

Of course you can use your leg all day long and as hard as you want, but if you don’t use it when your horse is physically capable of responding you might as well be beating a dead horse.

There are two ways you can ask a horse to do an inside turn: you can push the shoulder in or push the hip out. Which one I use depends on the horse’s natural tendencies and how I wish it to execute the turn. Some horses like to lag their hip to the inside of the turn and others “fall over” the outside shoulder. Here it seems like he is falling over the outside shoulder, but you can experiment between the two and see which works best to bring him back on track and to attention.

Back to using your aids when the horse is physically capable of responding to them: You need to be able to feel when each foot is moving. The best moment to influence the flight of the foot in the walk and trot is as the foot is coming off the ground. At the walk for moving the outside shouldet in, this should be as you feel your hip start to drop and roll forward on that side. As you ask the inside hip to move out it will be as you feel your inside hip come back and lift (the up and down movement of your hip is when the hind leg is lifting and stepping down, the front leg moves forward about the time the hind foot steps down). If your timing is not correct you will not be able to influence the flight of the leg no matter how hard you kick.

Your rein aid can also be used as the foot is ready to move forward to restrict the forward reach of that limb. Combined with the leg aid you are essentially telling the horse “go” with the leg “but not forward” with the hand.

I am also a little leery of the idea of you trying to instruct a friend from the ground on your horse. My experience with this issue has shown me that it is more difficult for the rider than the horse to solve. The rider must maintain the outside rein and resist the urge to try to pull the horse through the turn. the horse must be pushed in the desired direction, not pulled.

[exploding_pony]

The thing is, it can’t ever get to the point where he is dragging a rider over to you and you are chasing him off. I know it’s not on purpose, but that is really, really bad training!

He needs a trainer on him asap so he never gets that far - it needs to get shut down before he takes over. Once he’s going, it’s too late to stop him. It’s a timing, bend, forward, submission thing that can’t be explained over the internet - it is feel and it needs to be from someone who has dealt with this before.

My concern is that every single time he does this, it is a more established behavior and harder to undo. You don’t want to be chasing him off, you want him to be ridden in a way that this never happens.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I’m lost from the start. Since when is the training of a horse start, end or have to do with where his head goes? This horse needs to be stared with a good trainer, who will teach the horse to start responding to the seat. its not about the head???

[Sunsets]

Get him in front of your leg. If you can work in an arena where you legit don’t have to worry about steering or running over anyone, that would be best. Work on “go” and work on maintaining straightness and outside rein contact, in whatever direction you happen to be going. Once you get that connection, steering will come naturally. It might get ugly and he’ll probably get quick, but don’t fear “forward”. Use it for good.

[purplnurpl]

Y’all are so technical and complicated.

The horse is 3 and just isn’t broke. He’s backed and started, but not broke.

Use a stick on the shoulder he is running through. SHOW him the stick on the side he’s running though.

Don’t try to bend in the direction you want to go, use counter bend and pony club kick with the outside leg.

You need to control him by controling the directiin of his shoulders.

It really is that simple.

[Cat_Tap]

What I found helpful with youngsters in the early stages is to have another horse in the arena to follow.around . Of course that was after long lining where they learned to steer and had learned voice commands.

[Dbliron]

He’s not supposed to follow his nose, or his head, or his neck. He’s supposed to follow his shoulders, and it’s your job to steer his shoulders, not his nose, not his head, not his neck.

[CanteringCarrot]

As the owner of a few green horses, I’ve experienced similar behaviors and evasions so I’ll throw in my thoughts.

First thing, is this rider confident? Does the rider want to ride your horse? Is the rider completely OK working through this. If the rider is not, the horse knows and will exploit ANY rider insecurities.

As mentioned by others, carry a stick. Tap on the shoulder. Whenever the horse doesn’t respond to any leg asking to move forward, stick. When you say go, the horse must go. No ifs, ands, or butts. This is imperative and can be a matter of safety when it comes to some riding situations. Install forward correctly and firmly. When the horse is truly forward and working, it’s hard to pull any shananigans.

​​​​​Also as the rider, pay attention to where your body is, where to balance is, and that you are connected to the horse. Sounds simple, but when my horse gets squirrel-like if I take a split second to pay attention to my position it helps. Sometimes I am the one tipping forward or off balance not helping the situation! Even just a slight bit.

Yeah, there is lunging, and long lining but I think this needs to be solved under saddle. I am a huge advocate of long lining, but this is a “sit and GO” situation.

Forward, forward, forward. Block the bulge. Use a stick in the outside hand, and fix your outside elbow to your body if you have to in order to block him. Close that door. Get him interested. Transitions, bends, poles, patterns, serpentines, etc.

A busy and forward horse doesn’t have time to sight see!

[merrygoround]

I hate to always be the wet blanket in the crowd.

This horse was on the track. He therefore had to be ridden from point A to point B… Exercise riders at the track are usually educated riders, or they don’t last long. He therefore knows how to be ridden, and can be ridden.

This is a horse that is simply beyond the present skills of the OP. Many skills can be verbally taught or picked up from videos. but riding, and training,even with a patient instructor is difficult, and yes I’ve done it , but sigh, it is a very slow process.

I suggest that the OP find a trainer to either train the horse and her simultaneously. Trainer rides, rider rides, or a patient teacher who will work with her from the ground. She is not in a circumstance to direct someone else.