Just wondering if anyone has good plans for a Phantom they used to build theirs, or did you buy it from somehwhere?
Also, ground collection, new term for me. Can you explain, although I am guessing its fairly straight forward! LOL
Thank you
Equine Reproduction has valuable information regarding ground collecting. IMHO, every new stallion should be trained using this technique:
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/ground_collection.shtml
thank you!
www.equine-production.com also has great plans on their website to make a breeding phantom. They used a power pole for theirs…we just used three really thick fence posts and got a free foam mattress from our recycling/transfer station. Ours really only costs about $50 to built. In my opinion, the commercial ones are a waste of money. 
For ground collecting…and even phantom collecting, make sure you have someone who is knowledgeable and confident to teach your stallion. If you plan on doing it yourself and have never collected before…it could be a recipe for disaster.
Equine Reproduction (Kathy) if you read this thread, I’m very much interested in your experience with ground collecting stallions.
You say “We began using this method for an elderly stallion with hock and back problems some 17 years ago.”
Do you think that ground collection will put less stress to the back and hocks of the stallion compared with him mounting the phantom ?
This is of great importance for the stallions that are competing and collected to produce frozen semen during off season. (we need to keep their back and hocks in the best state possible in order for the stallion to continue to perform during many years at the big events)
A collection technician told me that it put the same stress as using the phantom, but I think his answer is because he doesn’t feel comfortable (or knowledgeable) with ground collection.
I cannot emphasize this enough. How they learn to collect goes with them for life. It can make the difference between quiet, easy and efficient to a raging baboon on a string. If you are not experienced in collecting and training, there are also little indications that can alert you to whether or not you are on the right track.
Most definitely.
This is of great importance for the stallions that are competing and collected to produce frozen semen during off season. (we need to keep their back and hocks in the best state possible in order for the stallion to continue to perform during many years at the big events)
A collection technician told me that it put the same stress as using the phantom, but I think his answer is because he doesn’t feel comfortable (or knowledgeable) with ground collection.
We have found that people that are not comfortable with the method, have attempted to do it without the experience and who are FIRM believers in collecting off a phantom, will make the statement that it is not any less stressful. Common sense would tell you otherwise as the entire animals weight and support is distributed over all four legs. With some stallions that INSIST that they need to “go up” I would agree that it is probably as or more stressful as they tend to do a kind of levade which of course, would put more stress and strain on the hocks and stifles. But, with those animals that collect with all four feet on the ground, there is absolutely no doubt that there is considerably less stress on backs, hocks and stifles. This can really be obvious with older, arthritic stallions that no longer wish to get on the breeding mount because it “is” uncomfortable, they can often be transferred over to ground collecting and will quite happily complete the task.
Sue McDonnell and I have chuckled over how adverse to the method some technicians can be. It “can” be intimidating to those not familiar with the method as you “are” up close and personal. But quite frankly, I feel much safer being where I am when doing a ground collection than when having to dive in to collect a stallion on the breeding mount.
When we hold short courses, we will usually do a demonstration with a stallion that has never been ground collected before and show how to start a stallion ground collecting. It “does” require team work with individuals that know what they are doing and that are good at communicating with each other, as well as recognizing the body language of the stallions.
Personally, if I had a choice, I would collect all stallions on the ground, so long as they will happily do so. Much like collecting on the breeding phantom, there are some stallions that are not good candidates for the method.
And, FWIW Andy…we’ll be holding a short course in the UK in February in Gloucestershire where we teach and demonstrate the method ;).
We ground collect, and while I’m not a vet, I don’t see how anyone could say that ground collecting puts the same amount of stress and strain on their hocks and back. I think it’s simply not true! :no:
I mean really, logically think about it. You’ve got a 1,000 lb. stallion that climbs up on the breeding mount. While much of his front end weight may be resting on the mount, the hocks and back in particular are taking on a lot of weight and stress. The back, hocks, gaskin and stifle are being straightened in a vertical position. For a stallion that may have an old stifle injury, etc., I can totally see how collecting off the breeding mount could possibly exacerbate an old injury.
Compare that to ground collecting in which a stallion keeps all four feet on the ground, weight distributed evenly, back stays level, etc. The only difference is that the hind end will slightly come underneath for ground collecting. We ground collect a stallion who is starting to get arthritic in his old age. I would much rather ground collect and have his hind end coming under himself rather than him standing up and the hind end having to stretch out vertically. Due to arthritis, he is reluctant to mount the breeding dummy, but we have no problems ground collecting. To me, that says a lot.
We actually did ground collection with Jack successfully, but it was LONG time ago at this point in time!!!
I personally prefer to collect using a phantom. I know EXACTLY where they are going to be during the process that way.
Thanks to all who answered my questions.
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6042679]
And, FWIW Andy…we’ll be holding a short course in the UK in February in Gloucestershire where we teach and demonstrate the method ;).[/QUOTE]
Kathy, is it possible to video record the session and then market the DVD?
Thats a great idea actually!
Also, the couple vets I’ve talked to have maintained that it is “more” stressful on the stallions to ground collect, but of course I think it’s a comfort level and lack of experience. I’d say the horses speak for themselves when you have a stallion unwilling to mount a mare or phantom but will ground collect. That speaks much louder than any degrees in therio as far as I’m concerned! :yes:
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6044566]
Thanks to all who answered my questions.
Kathy, is it possible to video record the session and then market the DVD?[/QUOTE]
<smile>…In our spare time maybe <lol>. The problem with doing a video is that it requires literally hours of footage to get enough to do a decent DVD. We repeatedly talk about getting it done, but just never seem to have everything in order. Add to that, you have to have a videographer that understands exactly what you want to capture and it works better if there are two or three videographers at one time. A funny aside, years ago, I had my foster daughter videoing for us for exactly this reason. She zoomed in on…err…well, let’s just say it wasn’t something that we could use for showing how to teach a stallion to ground collect :O!!!
We “are” now offering one on one training at our facility and are tailoring those sessions to specifically what the individual needs/wants to learn. This offers us a HUGE advantage in that we can offer a much more intensive training and LOTS more hands on opportunities. Anyone interested in that, check out http://www.equine-reproduction.com/services/one-on-one.shtml (there’s a special going on right now too 
).
Yup. And every vet that I’ve spoken with that claims it is more stressful has never used the method. We’ve actually manged to collect a few stallions that would NOT live cover or mount a breeding mount due to arthritic problems/old injuries doing ground collections. As noted, those boys that INSIST that they need to go up and will do a levade while collecting - yeah, definitely more stressful - but quite honestly, in all the years we’ve trained and collected on the ground, there have only been a handful of boys that would do that and typically, they can be encouraged to keep those front feet on the ground.
We have one stallion that the ONLY way he has ever been collected has been on the ground. When we have people come to the facility to learn to collect, he is one that we use for training. He is collected in his paddock and for those of you who believe the boys need to have special equipment to collect, when he sees someone walking up the aisle with the AV, he KNOWS what his job is and is ready to rock and roll by the time they get to his pen <smile>. No drama at all. No tease mare required. :D!
I would highly recommend this! :yes: When Jos came up to freeze semen for us, he spent some one on one time with myself and the stallions, and even though we had already been collecting for several years, I learned some additional invaluable tips, tricks and techniques!
Equine Reproduction Concepts in Amissville, VA teaches stallions this (very well, I might add).
http://www.equinereproduction.com
