Ground driving vs. just hitching up & going - a philosophical difference?

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

Maybe I’m misreading what I see here in the forums, but it seems to me that a whole lotta people are putting a whole lotta ground-driving miles on their horses before actually presenting them with the prospect of pulling a cart.

Driving Clinic Guy, on the other hand, thinks ground-driving is more dangerous than driving in a cart - he says you have less control, and that you can get into a lot more trouble ground-driving than cart-driving.

Is this possibly a draft-vs.-pleasure/sport driving philosophical difference?

Personally, I would rather see my pony & his harness disappearing into the sunset without me than to find myself rapidly approaching said sunset, bouncing around in a cart behind an out-of-control pony.

[5chestnuts]

Your instinct is right and your guy is wrong - ground driving is MUCH safer than driving with cart attached.

However, ( saying this from a physical standpoint) if he drives big drafts he can probably handle them better if he doesn’t have to walk, or jog, behind them. If he’s a “big” man (likes his meat and taters) then ground driving isn’t going to be his favorite activity. He’d rather sit behind them while they pull him around in a big heavy vehicle.

I would also hazard a guess that he starts a green draft in a “team” (read as pair) with an experienced mate to act as a drag. Seems to be par for the draft people.

You have a little pony. You are much better off teaching from the ground well before you put little pony to a cart.

Don’t let this guy hurry you, whatever you do. There are enough threads on this board from sad owners who had horses/ponies ruined by too hasty “trainers” who rushed to the cart without the proper ground training. Word to the wise.

Oh, and his comment on the pony probably having been driven before? Don’t believe it. Many ponies will take driving training in stride and appear to act like they’d already been trained somewhere down the line - when in reality they have not. So don’t let him talk you into skipping steps. Very important.

[susanne]

RAR, I was made fun of for ground-driving Mingus forever – in my defense I was waiting to buy a cart – but it’s time I’ve never regretted. On the one hand, I’m blessed with an incredible horse, energetic yet wise and a bit of a babysitter at times, but on the other hand I think that our many hours of ground-driving helped immensely in creating an absolutely trustworthy driving horse.

But even if I hadn’t experienced this, I would still say to go at the pace at which you are comfortable. It’s your horse. I can see him objecting if you were wanting to race ahead and cut corners, but not for taking things slowly and carefully.

Assuming that you are working in an enclosed area, how can ground-driving be more dangerous than getting in the cart so early in the horse’s training? Unless perhaps you are too close to the horse and in danger of getting kicked…

[buck22]

Echo everything said so far, including trainer’s comment on probably driven before. Some horses take to it like ducks to water, my Mustang did, “born broke”, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t green and capable of getting us killed.

Trust your instincts and don’t ever be afraid to say ‘no, not right now’. As said, many people with good intentions fall in with trainers that go too fast, one accident, and the future of the animal’s suitability is suddenly questionable.

Ground driving is terribly tiring and it gets old fast for us. Its a PITA to try to keep up with them, and you get tangled easily, and it can be frustrating. It is easy to be lulled into the temptation of hitching before you’re ready.

On the flipside, I don’t feel X amount of time ground driving is mandatory either. The horse needs to progress at a rate it is comfortable with and the trainer needs to be sure all bases are covered before going to the next step.
[URL=“http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/buck%20and%20spice%20drive/spicedrive1.jpg”]
I had one horse I ground drove for 2 weeks before hitching. I boarded him at the trainer’s facility and worked with him daily. Then I drove him for 2 weeks daily with the trainer and went through all the kinks on the trail (hills, roads, general public, dogs & geese, curbs, etc).

My heart horse, my now 32 yr old, is the first horse I ever drove, and we were driving in one day with a trainer, but that was a huge risk I took and I’ll never do that again. As it is I’m bringing him back for tandem and I’m doing a ton of prep work for that.

My naughty Morgan had every conceivable vice that made him unsuitable for driving, but with his broken withers he had no other option at a career and I was facing the real idea of euthanasia… so we literally had nothing to loose by trying (well I could’ve gotten my jaw broken, he was a viscious viscious kicker). I ground drove him for 3 months before I hitched him, and then I ground drove him hitched (me walking by his hip) for another 2 months. Then for another 2 months I only drove with out walkers and people on longe lines. I started in March, I was finally driving solo come November, and that was for all of 30 minutes at a time. And I longed before every drive. Something about his winter break flipped a switch in him and come March he turned into the best driving horse I ever met, and now a year later I simply cannot believe how wonderful he is.

The purpose of ground driving is to teach the horse all the things it needs to know to be a safe driving horse, stop, stand, walk, walk on, trot, walk, turn, whoa, etc. You simulate the feel of the shafts with make shift poles, you prepare it for noises behind by dragging noisy things, you teach it to lean into the breast collar and pull by having it drag a tire, etc. This is, in broad strokes, basically it.

The hidden and more important purpose in thorough ground driving though, is learning what your horse does and how you handle it when the manure hits the fan.

A bird flushes. A strap breaks. A branch falls and lands on his rump. A wheel gets into a ditch and we’re stuck. The hill is much steeper than it looked but we can’t turn back. Someone’s stallion got loose and is running amok.

You learn these things by using poles that always fall out and you have to stop and fix and the horse learns to stop and wait. You wander into places you probably shouldn’t have gone and you and the horse together figure out how to get out safely. You or the horse get wrapped up in something and then patiently have to figure out how to come undone. You develop mutual reliance and team work by going on mini adventures and making mistakes, and its MILES safer when a vehicle isn’t involved.

A driving horse must be solid in the face of danger, patient, and tolerant of our fumbling and making mistakes, obedient and agree 100% with whatever its being asked to do but also have sense. There is only one way to really drive this home and that is by spending time making mistakes and correcting it. It is WAY safer to do this on the ground where if the horse gets upset you can disarm the situation in seconds and the horse learns to trust you. Or, watch the horse gallop into the sunset while you’re on terra firma.

It took a long time to get my Morgan hitched, and I felt like we’d never get there at times (and if you look at my posting history here I bet you’ll find a lot of pity parties :lol:) but in hindsight, doing the extensive ground work we did together, taught him to fill in for me when I made bone headed mistakes. I can’t begin to tell you how valuable that has become to me. He has baled my sorry ass out of bad situations I’ve driven us into more than once, and thats because we spent sooooo much time together making mistakes and learning how to deal with them that he has the tools to not only maintain his composure and think, but have good sense too.

I hope that made sense?

There is no set amount of time you must spend ground driving, but don’t skip steps either. You’ve got to learn too and ground driving is just as much about you learning as it is your horse.

And while holes in a riding foundation can be a real PITA, holes in a driving foundation can be really harmful.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

Thank you all for confirming what my gut’s telling me.

And even out on the road - ground driving’s going to be safer for ME than driving in a cart, right? Assuming I’m willing to let go and watch his furry little butt scamper away :lol:

Frankly, I’d rather experience a serious setback in his training than end up in a wreck.

This pony has done NOTHING except for a few lead line rides and the occasional hand walk in the 2 1/2 years he’s been with me. And before that, he was in a field by himself for 3 years.

He has only recently started to stand tied on a semi-regular basis. He stands for a trim for the farrier every 6 weeks, but other than that, he’s sort of feral. :lol:

He and I need to develop a relationship.

And, yes, Driving Clinic Guy starts his “babies” by a lot of handling on the ground, teaching them to stay tied, then tying them to the back of a heavy flatbed wagon with hay bales on it, then pulling the wagon with a team while the babies enjoy the mobile buffet, so they get exposed to wagon sounds and voice commands. And THEN he hitches them between 2 solid driving citizens. Then they drive in a pair. Some of them have only been driven single a few times.

Those things are not an option for me :no: (Although I do have a friend in the neighborhood who drives her Mustangs, and at some point I’m planning to expose the pony to that, and hand walk him along with her while she drives.)

Thanks again.

Now I just have to figure out a way to convey this to him without implying that I don’t trust his judgement. I have a lot of respect for his knowledge and what he’s accomplished, but I’m not him. And the pony isn’t one of his horses.

(As for whether the pony’s been driven before, I really think he has. I’ve thought that for a long time, based on his reaction to seeing a pair-drawn carriage in the neighborhood - “Cool! I’m gonna follow you guys!” and the fact that he’s got some white hairs up in front of his withers where an ill-fitting harness might rub - and now based on his “WHATevs” reaction to being harnessed - after the hissy fit he pitched this past winter when I started blanketing him. This could all be coincidence - but we’ll never know, so I’m going to keep believing it :D)

[goodhors]

The main issue I have with ground driving, is seeing folks hanging on the reins because they can’t walk fast enough to keep up. This is with both small ponies and larger horses. Equines of a good sort, are bred to MOVE with big overstride, as a good thing. We really want horses that walk that way! People just don’t walk that fast, so they can’t keep up with their equine just going forward! But with driver behind horse, they can’t SEE how much tension they have on the lines. Driver often can’t KNOW they need get along quick enough to give slack to the reins, when horse is just going nice or as a reward. Some of those animals have their chins on their chest most of the time out, HAULING that driver along.

What the animals often deduce during ground driving, is that he is to go FORWARD, no matter HOW HARD the reins pull on him. So they do, ground driving or when you get them hitched to the vehicle. Draft animals who are actually used for work, do tend to have an ENORMOUS overstride, so trying to walk behind is going to need a handler who can jog for long times! They also are “built” to pull, with massive necks, powerful quarters, and probably no finesse to managing their bits. They will just lay into any resistance, whether it is from reins or an attached load, power THRU to keep going. With the build of most working drafts, it can be hard to get them “bit responsive”, and this is where voice commands come in handy for their kind of work. Horse goes into self-carriage, follows voice direction, rather than being reined about. I sure don’t blame the DCG for thinking ground driving is dangerous, if he mostly does big drafts. It is!

We tend to lead ours around, where HE is supposed to maintain position, with a loose lead at our shoulder, to look at new and odd things. He can be silly, tenative, bold, in approaching things he has never seen before. But he BETTER NOT tighten that lead!! There is no hanging on his face with the reins, he has a person beside him to get him brave because THEY didn’t get scared. I can let the lead out, pull him forward, punish if needed because HE isn’t in the correct postion for leading past the road rock, new pile of logs, etc.

We have already gone to a LOT of work on the long lines, doing his various dragging exercises, teaching vocal commands, to start MAKING his mouth quite responsive to the lines. I don’t want that lost when we can’t keep up with him ground driving. We do SOME ground driving, in that horse is not always circling. This will have driver off to one side, still using long lines to be able to view his head position as horse goes along. We want to encourage the FORWARD all the time. We want to SEE when rein pull is too harsh and STOP doing that! We can reward FAST when horse falls into a good headset on his own, to encourage that more. Horse is still BETWEEN the lines, nothing up over his spine until he is hitched to a vehicle for safety. Horse working can’t spin with lines down on his sides, like is possible with lines above the spine.

I SURE don’t want to discourage anyone working their horse to get rid of being scared before hitching. Just getting horse out to work him in harness is great, does help everyone be more confident.

Just want to remind drivers that they need to get some way of checking how hard the rein pull is on the animal. About impossible to see from behind the animal. Driver needs to learn to move a bit faster to lessen rein pull, or develop some alternatives for checking horse head. When we do our straight-aways on long lines, we can do a circle at the corner to “catch up” to equine, work at keeping gait steady and consistant in cadance. You need a couple walks for driving, so this is a practice in using them AS ASKED. You can see his response from the side, see if he REALLY is going evenly, slower or faster. Breaks up the sameness with speed changes in same gait, for a bit of mental interest.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Long lining and ground driving are one and the same for me. As i do both while i’m working. I too am one that can NOT keep up with my ponies, so we do lots of long lining with them working out on the circle away from me or me next to their shoulders. I’ve gotten really good at doing figure 8s and trotting them through cones, etc… Clay Maier has some great long lining dvds:
http://www.claymaier.com/
Well worth the money for the newbie!

I would say for me, i probably do more ground work than needed, but like Buck22 said, it will really show you how your horse is going to react, how to control it when it does, and generally just ease fears on both sides as you get more comfortable with eachother.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

[QUOTE=goodhors;6266900]

Just want to remind drivers that they need to get some way of checking how hard the rein pull is on the animal. About impossible to see from behind the animal. Driver needs to learn to move a bit faster to lessen rein pull, or develop some alternatives for checking horse head. When we do our straight-aways on long lines, we can do a circle at the corner to “catch up” to equine, work at keeping gait steady and consistant in cadance. You need a couple walks for driving, so this is a practice in using them AS ASKED. You can see his response from the side, see if he REALLY is going evenly, slower or faster. Breaks up the sameness with speed changes in same gait, for a bit of mental interest.[/QUOTE]Thanks for pointing this out. I did notice in the driving clinic with the drafts that I felt like I was just hanging on their mouths - but so was DCG some of the time, as far as I could tell. Big powerful girls that just kind of got on the lines and stayed there. When I drove the Haffie today, the feel was very different. There was communication!

I don’t understand the part that I bolded above. Probably just me, being dense.

[danischi24]

I always lead & ground drive my youngsters before riding or driving them so that they are used to the area & all the scary things they encounter as well as to bond with them.
I’m always sure not to hang on mouths but I don’t use drafts so maybe that makes a difference in sensitivity.

[buck22]

When you have a horse that has a nice ground covering walk, you want to preserve that best you can by making sure you keep up and not drag on their mouths. Walking behind is probably the hardest way to go imho, I prefer to walk at shoulder/barrel/hip. If I’m at the shoulder I have room to let the reins slide and the horse advance and still stay in control should the horse decide to do something and I don’t want to totally squelch the forward.

RAR, I think what Goodhors is saying in that pp/bolded is that one of the ways to avoid hanging on a horse’s mouth if you suddenly find you can’t keep up is to fluidly turn them onto a circle. This keeps them walking forward and gives you a chance to rest/catch up/get untangled :lol: I think what she’s saying is that don’t just focus on going in straight lines walking behind everywhere, incorporate lots of turning and circles/semi circles because its going to be something you’ll ask when hitched eventually anyhow.

[Renae]

Coming from a Saddlebred background I’ve learned to start horses in harness a little differently than many here. Horse is of course taught to lunge, lunge in side reins and long line. Horse stops, steers and knows all verbal commands very well. Then over a few days the horse is introduced to a jog cart and then hooked and driven. Training shafts, ground poles, and dragging stuff is never done. But an experienced driver on the lines, an experienced person at the horse’s head and 2-3 other experienced helpers are always present for hooking. A horse that is going forward is fine as long as they are not bolting. Bucking and kicking are not acceptable, but as they have never been acceptable in any part of the training little of this usually happens. We help the horses in the turns the first few times when they still are not accustomed to moving into the shafts, a helper joins the horse as they go into the turn, grabs the shaft and pulls them around the turn. Young horses are usually jogging solid after 2-3 week of good work ( from the time you introduce the cart).

[goodhors]

The comment on different walks, is being able to ask the animal to walk in a relaxed fashion, calm and quiet in a “normal” walk. While a second “speed” to the walk would be a forward, almost marching, walk. We always called it the speed walk. Just like we kids would do going to the ice cream store, but Mom said we couldn’t run! How FAR can you get him reaching and overstriding, without a break or jig into trot?

Doing these kinds of different walks, just speeding him up a few strides without a break to another speed, then relaxing again, will help him get stronger to keep up that kind of walk. Certainly easy to view stride changes while doing your ground work fom the side.

I think being able to ask for slow or more forward walk, trot, allows you to “finesse” him in various situations.

CDE Dressage Test calls for a couple different walks, you are marked on how different they are. Judges want to see a VISIBLE difference in the two walks. This is also true with the trot. Animal progresses into doing the different walks, trots, as horse is developed from training up the skill levels.

Our horses get at least 3 trots developed as they get more training. I use them all during riding and driving at some point or another. It just allows him to be more versitile in how we can use him. I do work to make them TRUE trots, cadenced. Horse is not only using the front or hind part in appearing to trot, or that bizarre Western Pleasure gait, Troping.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

Ah… thanks, goodhors! That makes sense. Similar to the difference between a free walk and a working walk in dressage.

This evening, as the temperature plummeted to a brisk 99, the pony & I went out for some more in-hand work. I put him in the back half of his harness (saddle, backstrap, britching, & crupper) just to get him accustomed to wearing it, plus halter & lead rope.

(My logic is that he needs better ground manners before we do a lot of work with me trying to drive him, either from beside or behind, plus I wanted to make sure that after our little skijoring incident the other day, having the harness on wasn’t going to bother him - it didn’t.)

We worked on:

• Standing still while being groomed, tied to the trailer (not terribly good at that)
• “Whoa” (pretty good)
• “Whoa” without turning to look at me (getting better)
• “Walk on” (very good)
• Walking without trying to bite my hand (getting better)
• “Haw” (good), “gee” (so-so), and a little bit of “back” (not his favorite thing to do)

Baby steps, baby steps.

[R_Holyoak]

If I might suggest. use right and left for turn commands.

I have found it much easier than any of the old terms like gee and haw which comes from drafts.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

[QUOTE=R Holyoak;6269506]
If I might suggest. use right and left for turn commands.

I have found it much easier than any of the old terms like gee and haw which comes from drafts.[/QUOTE]Easier for you to remember, or easier for the horse to understand?

Amazingly enough, I don’t seem to have trouble keeping gee & haw straight, although I was talking with someone the other day who said she never could remember which was which.

Today’s update:
The big boys had an “OMG it’s too soon to be this hot” day today, but young Master Panda-chan had a little workout this evening in most of his harness*, with the lines run through the tugs to give me a better chance of keeping him from spinning to face me. MUCH better than running them through the terrets at this stage. There was no spinning (not for lack of trying on his part and no skijoring.

There was a LOT of attempting to sidle out the arena gate and reluctance to turn away from it, but in the end, we always went where I intended us to go. We even went out on the road in front of the house a bit, and went out back for a quick visit to the big boys, who had hay and were therefore not interested in us.

And then, as I removed a cactus spine from my finger while cleaning the lines, I realized it would be better to figure out some way to do this without having them drag along the ground. Probably not a good idea to wrap them around my waist - is there a “right” way to deal with the excess length while ground driving? I think they would be too bulky if I tried to fold them back & forth so I could hold everything in my hands.

*Left off the breastcollar because the traces just drag in the dirt, and the collar does nothing with nothing to pull. Is this a bad idea? Is there some way to keep the traces from dragging?

[buck22]

My morgan was very squirrely when we first set out ground driving. I found the closer I was to his shoulder the faster I could stop his antics and deliver the message “not an option!”. I wouldn’t even use the terrets at first, my hands would literally be where a rider’s hands would be and I would march him along all the areas he thought he could be a stinker and spin and twist and wriggle. As he became more obedient, I used the terrets and started dropping back.

Actually, to back up even further, when my Morgan was really bad about the gate, I would start our ground driving lessons with some time on the longe (full harness except blinkers) and longe him right at the gate, any time he tried to slow down or barge out I would remind him what FORWARD! meant. :lol:

Pony can’t think about gate and about going forward at the same time. Forward! is your friend.

I used to run the traces through the tugs, and then through the uptug/ring on the breeching so the tail of the trace would dangle down the back leg. It was a nice added desensitizer to things fluttering around his hind legs. When I got a harness that had D rings instead of slotted ends, I quickly learned the D’s would painfully bonk his hocks, so I would thread them through the back strap and cross them over his back. There is a way to do a figure 8 tie of the traces too, I have a photo in a book some place.

When I don’t feel like having my rein ends drag (some times I do, some times I don’t depends on how close quarters I am working with my horse), I will fold up the reins “tamale” style and keep in my left hand. Tamale is not loops like you would loop a water hose, but folded back and forth on itself like when you buy new shoelaces. I will NEVER coil/loop reins or longe lines, always tamale. This trick saved me from getting seriously hurt. When horse decides to leave the scene in a flash, a tamale will rip from your hands in an orderly fashion, like opening a feedbag, and will not find its way around your wrist or fingers.

If a tamale is too bulky for my hand, I will do what some western riders will do with the tail of their mecate, and that is take a loop and push it through my belt loop. You just take the bight of your reins in the middle of the excess, fold it and push that fold through your belt loop. Pull the loop through just far enough to keep excess from being too close to your ankle/low enough to step through. If horse should decide to leave in a hurry the bight will pop out of your belt loop without catching on anything, or the worst that would happen is you’d loose your belt loop. Be sure you’re not actually wearing a belt that could snag the rein though.

If I’m wearing pants that don’t have belt loops, I fold the bight and tuck the fold right down the back of my pants.

here this picture shows a mecate through a belt loop, he has it passed over the horn first

[RidesAHaflinger]

When using the full harness for ground-driving, I run the traces back through the breeching rings and then double them forward to the trace buckles where I clip them to the buckles using double-end snaps. I’ve also tied them to the trace buckles using bailing twine (what else? :lol:) if I didn’t have snaps handy. I find this keeps sufficient tension on the traces to keep the breast collar and breeching stable while ground-driving and keeps it all tidy.

I would never let the reins drag on the ground behind me. :eek: Pretty sure I’d eventually trip on them, and no, please don’t wrap them around your body. Double :eek:! I can figure-8 the extra rein and bridge the reins between my hands (with the extra rein in my left hand) and manage the entire shebang along with a driving whip in my right hand and I have small hands. Maybe there is too much bulk in your reins? Most of my singles drving reins are in the 14-15’ range (pony length); pairs reins are probably 16’. None are wider than 5/8" and may even be closer to 1/2". I can’t manage anything wider than that. I am speaking strictly of ground-driving here. If I intend to long-line the pony (double-longe) then I use a pair of cotton lines that are much longer (30’ or more) so the pony can freely circle, serpentine, figure-8 etc. around me. Those lines also are rolled for several inches at the bit end so they slide through the snaffle ring easily.

The longer you pursue this past-time the more creative you get with adapting your equipment for various purposes. :yes:

[buck22]

Let me clarify about rein dragging… when I am using long lines, 20-35’, I do let the tail ends drag on the ground behind me when I’m working far away from my horse (well out of kicking range), same as shown here in this photo: http://www.claymaier.com/tutorials-advanced.php. It feels awkward at first, like setting yourself up for disaster, but I’ve never had a problem or stepped on them, etc. and its really easy to feed the horse in and out and maintain contact without fumbling.

They are OPEN lines though and not buckled.

When I’m using shorter reins, 13-16’, they’re always in my hand, I never drag just a few inches, and NEVER drag closed/buckled lines. My horse is 14.3h though, so rein length is all relative.

[RidesAHaflinger]

Clay Meier is probably a lot more coordinated than I am. :yes: I’ll let the long lines trail behind if the work is simple but if doing active work up and down the arena at trot and canter such as figure 8’s, serpentines, etc when I’m moving often and quickly to be in the correct position with respect to the position of the horse, I am much safer without the lines trailing and me having to step back and forth over them.

It’s just one of those rules imprinted on my brain for 50+ years that include no dragging of ropes and no ropes wrapped around any human body parts if the rope is also attached to a horse. And always close the gate. :lol:

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

These lines are about 16’, 3/4" - thanks for the idea about tucking them through a belt loop. (I was definitely joking about wrapping them around my waist - just in case anyone missed that

And thanks for the suggestions about how to handle the traces. I think I’ll try that for our next session.

If I’m going to be walking up by his shoulder as buck22 describes, any reason not to use just a regular pair of riding-length reins?

And while I’m tossing questions out there… what about a whip? I’ve been carrying my dressage whip, but that means I’m probably closer behind him than I should be for safety. But my longe whip is - I think - too long for this application. Should I (please, please, SOMEONE enable me!) be getting an actual driving whip? And if so, what kind, how long, etc.?

You guys are great, by the way - VERY helpful.