So, with all the best intentions I thought that I would use this winter (and the very small covered arena I have access to) to work on my young ottb’s balance and strength. The balance has been helped by the dimensions of this arena for sure (it was going to be that or crashing into a lot of walls!), but … when I started using ground poles (with the expectation of moving on to trot poles, canter poles and small jumping exercises), we got stuck. My horse does not relax over ground poles. She wants to jump them if possible and get over them quickly regardless. I have worked with single poles at a walk, trot and canter; trot poles; poles on a circle; poles with lots of half halts; poles with a loose rein, etc., etc. Other than just over single ground poles at a walk, she can NOT relax over them. Even with that, she can seem pretty darn relaxed and then all of the sudden feel the urge to start jumping them again?! I have to say I’ve never dealt with this before. She can be rushy when she first starts jumping, and she’s still only doing small stuff, but she can also be very relaxed about it … almost hunter like. She’s one of those horses that is very safe alone trail riding, i’ve taken her over lots of logs and branches and through pretty rough terrain, so I’m baffled. I don’t understand this anxiety and worry about what it could mean with respect to her sensitivity, braveness, etc. I’ve always thought before that she had such a good brain.
I feel your pain. My guy had a fabulous brain, great on trails, not spooky, etc., and his whole life, he hated ground poles and fences on the ground. It was just his weird little idiosyncrasy, and I had to deal with it. Having just said he wasn’t spooky, he WOULD spook at a pile of rails alongside an arena, and would stop dead (or threaten to) even years into his training if you expected him to trot down through a grid of ground rails. Grids always needed to be built up slowly for him (not so much the height – that didn’t bother him a bit – but slowly in terms of the number of elements/ground rails/place rails, etc.) so he didn’t come around the corner and go bug-eyed at everything set up on the ground.
We could never effectively use trot poles in flatwork or jumping to relax him, because he got either bug-eyed or flat and racing going through them. However, if a grid was built gradually for him, he and I both could reap the benefits of grillwork very effectively in terms of using ground rails and place rails to moderate pace, take off, straightness, landing, etc., and he certainly jumped lots of very complicated grids as his training progressed. I just had to understand that even when he was a “big” horse, we needed to build slowly with the ground rails, and that he wouldn’t spook at a judge’s stand billowing with flowers but would spook at the pile of 10 jump rails placed discreetly along the side of the arena.
I’m sorry I don’t have great advice for you on how to get past it because I never really did, but your post sounded so familiar that I just wanted to offer some reassurance that she could be every bit as good-minded as you think, and for some reason this one thing is not her thing.
I don’t think it necessarily means anything about her courage or brains. I’ve had several like this. My old Prelim horse never outgrew it (and not just jumping them, the full on snort/ twist head sideways/ deer jump). You could try lungeing or leading through on hand and see if that helps.
This is odd advice but hey you can try it. Peter Atkins used to do clinics where he would set a massive amt of poles like pick up sticks. They were angled, crossed over and spaced unevenly. No way can a horse jump those, he’s forced to settle down and learn to pick up his feet and carry himself and pick his way through.
You could also try this in a small turnout area and let them try it alone first?
Thanks for all of your input! Its been tremendously helpful and encouraging. I have thought about just littering her run with a pick-up-sticks array of ground poles, but don’t want her to get injured in the process or have her brain fried. I feel like I’ve been borderline drilling it anyhow. I have tried going over them in-hand and on the lunge line. Its actually worse than under saddle, and she does have good ground manners otherwise. After reading these posts, I’m inclined to stop trying to make it work and just move on to single jumps and eventually gymnastics that don’t start out with trot poles. She has done grids that had placement poles and my experience has been exactly what you described, NeverTime, so I think it will just need to be strategic. One of the biggest spooks I’ve experienced on her (because she’s generally NOT spooky) was when an instructor was pulling out poles for an exercise. At least I feel encouraged that it doesn’t indicate that she might not be cut out for eventing.
I thought of you when I read #5
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1047246511999572&id=124691934255039&substory_index=0
I have two schools of thought.
One, you have a horse that is afraid and not comfortable and if he isn’t comfortable with ground poles although he might jump at some point he is going to get overfaced and then he will not jump again. Thus, he needs to at least understand that he need not be afraid of the ground poles. My current mare is like this. She will balk in front of a sea of ground poles because she is worried.
Two, your horse is catlike and very careful and although you will have to worry about getting jumped out of the saddle you will not have to worry about stopping. I also had a mare like this. She would canter through trot poles to get to the gymnastic and never miss a beat or hit anything. If you were stupid enough to cause her to hit something God help you the next time through. She knew exactly where her feet were and was always game if perhaps a bit too enthusiastic. I eventually gave up and just learned to get out of the way.
I think your mare might be the first type and she needs to be confident in you to go over anything first and confident in her own ability to not hit anything before you go too far.
My pony is exactly like this. She is almost 11 now, and just this past year have ground poles become “ok” in her mind.
When she was younger, I sort of just skipped over trying to make her go over them quietly as I thought it was making it worse. Same thing happened when a trainer suggested walking small fences, total brain meltdown.
This last year my arena has had a pole or two in it pretty much constantly. I have to say she is now very quiet over single poles at the walk and trot. I just had her go over them every time I rode, and pretty much ignored her when she was silly except to redirect her to what we had been doing previously.
If she is quiet and confident jumping, I would not force the issue, maybe just let her mature a bit and come back to it in a year or two.
[QUOTE=Rainier;8549148]
One of the biggest spooks I’ve experienced on her (because she’s generally NOT spooky) was when an instructor was pulling out poles for an exercise. At least I feel encouraged that it doesn’t indicate that she might not be cut out for eventing.[/QUOTE]
Ha! I had thought about but didn’t mention in my first post: Another thing I learned I simply could not do was hop off of him and set fences. I could RAISE fences, but if a pole fell, he’d go running backward at the end of his reins. If I even though about hopping off to move a ground rail or drag a pole into position, same thing - he’d hit the end of his reins and go running backward a few steps. I will never know why, but he just hated poles on the ground. And this was a very un-spooky, super quiet to work around horse, and a horse who very, VERY rarely stopped (run-outs at corners were more our thing) so I don’t think it was a confidence or fear issue.
I definitely do not think this particular phobia equates to not being cut out for eventing. Mine evented for years, and through advanced, despite being ridden the whole time by a very mediocre amateur (me). I sort of think he had a more challenging job than the horses that were headed to Rolex under the better riders and real professionals, because he usually got the job done anyways, despite the lump on his back.
I have an OTTB like this too. FTR, he’s my grand prix jumper and has no problem with jumps and is probably the bravest horse I’ve ever known. But he can. not. trot. poles. And really he can’t walk poles or walk little jumps (which is something I love to do with all of my horses) either. Like your horse, he can do one and usually be okay with it, but it’s not “just totally not a big deal” like it is with all of my other horses. And forget cavaletti…EVER!
I was talking about the issue in a clinic with Greg Best and his comment was that some horses have a problem with that moment when poles go out of sight for them and struggle to accomplish the coordination of body parts at a slower pace than a canter/jump. To him it wasn’t a big deal, and so I never worried about it since my guy was so good in all other ways.
My guy also struggles with changes in terrain, which can be a little scary when we’re out in a grand prix field or when we have to navigate ditches, grobs, banks, etc. I did try galloping him out over uneven terrain for a while to see if that would help, but despite always trying his hardest, he still struggled with it. I think that’s what finally convinced me that it’s a not a “focus” issue, but a “poor sense of relative awareness” issue.
He lives in wedge pads, which I think messes with his sense of where his feet are (which I don’t think he ever had a great sense of anyway - even prior to the wedge pads). And so I think that between not really knowing where his feet are and losing sight of the obstacle as we near it just really throws him mentally. Jumping is easy, because they have (minimally) a several foot buffer versus the much tighter trotting takeoff distance.
We’re going on 10 or 11 years of showing together, and he’s been in the 1.40-1.50m jumpers for the last 6 years. So I think I can safely say that it’s truly no big deal that he can’t trot poles, and really hasn’t impacted him in a negative way. I mean, perhaps he would have an easier time in the really big classes if he had a better sense of where his feet are, but I don’t think that’s a training issue so much as a suitability issue.
Okay, skip ahead a couple years. I had a few years with a foster son when I coukdn’t Do a lot of focused training. Now I have the time and am still frustrated. My horse did get better over trot and canter pokes, but would rush jumps … especially if there were poles in front or between. Those exercises for rushing horses with a ground pole in front and behind actually make her much worse!
so this winter i’m Backat the small indoor and thought i’d Work with ground poles and cavaletti. She’s been okay with the poles, but a cavaletti (even on the ground) is a no go, or she wants to launch over it. And once the reactivity to the cavaletti, she starts reacting to the poles too. Why in none of the books or videos on working with poles or cavaletti do they not address this issue with some horses. I actually have done a lot of groundwork with my horse, some liberty work, etc. i’ve Started looking at videos for desensitization, working over obstacles, etc, but nothing seems relevant??
Seems that the issue remains rushing fences? And you might have been happy with/accepting of the progress made over poles except that the usual exercises for addressing rushing to the fences use ground poles? Hopefully others can offer suggestions for alternative training techniques. I can concur with others that some horses never get good at ground poles (either spookiness or klutziness) and it did not prevent them from having successful high-level jumping careers.
Have you ever done full evals of health (esp. ulcers), soundness, saddle fit, and fitness to try to understand if there’s a physical reason for the rushing?
If she fretted over ground poles, it’s no surprise she’s fretting over cavalettis. What did you do to get her better over ground poles? Two things come to mind:
1 - make sure you are balanced over the “fence”. If you are getting off balance (to forward, left behind, hitting her in the mouth, etc), she is likely to remain uptight, or get more anxious…or both. So, check to make sure your saddle is helping you stay balanced and you aren’t doing anything yourself that will cause issues. A neck strap can help here.
2 - how are you reacting to her after the “fence”? Are you pulling her back right away because you feel she is running off? Fighting with her before and after the fence can cause anxiety.
I have found with horses that are tense, it is best to sneak in the training while doing other things. I would have ground poles on the ground and just randomly go over them while doing flat work - like hey, this is in the middle of where we are doing a circle, let’s just step over it. Then, even if they rush, be sure to stay in the middle, hands forward and praise even if they go from trotting to cantering. Same with cavelettis and small jumps. When it gets to jumps, it’s hard to just have one randomly like the trot poles, but I will maybe do a circle, then aim for the jump, then go off to do other flat work and a few minutes later aim for the jump going the other way, or another jump or something.
Most important - stay in the middle, hands forward, praise no matter what craziness is happening after the jump - they will feed on what you give so if you give calmness and praise, they will become more calm about the challenge. If you feed anxiety, they will become more anxious.
When you say that groundwork and desensitizing don’t seem to translate, you are absolutely right. Some horses don’t make that connection. My horse is like that. He panics on the lunge line, and any and all in-hand work gets him so incredibly flustered, he bolts backwards or rears. But when I am on his back, he is much happier. I’m not sure why he has such a mental block, but at the end of the day, does it really matter? Our competitions are mounted, so that’s where the training has to be effective.
I have an OTTB who HATES poles. I did straight dressage with him for years because he was so dramatic about trot poles, I couldn’t fathom what would happen if I raised them off of the ground. But, much to my surprise, he really loves to jump. We went right to little 18" jumps because poles were a no-no, and he has never ever seemed overfaced. He will refuse only if my trainers adjusts the placement of a jump, and its not where he expected it to be. He definitely notices when she raises them, but never backs off in his approach. So another poster commented that not addressing the ground pole issue will leave a hole in her training and cause her to lose confidence. I disagree, especially when it comes to OTTB’s.
He is funny about trot poles leading up to a jump still (if there are any more than two, he becomes bipedal) and ground lines (if you push them out in front of a jump, he jumps it like its a 5’ wide oxer) but the consensus among trainers and clinicians has been: in competition we jump jumps. There will be no poles to worry about, and no groundline before the jump, so if he can’t do it in training, who cares? There are other exercises (albeit, they are more difficult for us as pilots) to address rushing, getting flat, etc. One that I like is setting up cross rails where you pass over the centerline in a serpentine. That way you approach from any direction, you can change directions when you land, or keep going on the lead the you entered. You can jump another jump, or you can do something else for a few minutes. You can change gaits, you can halt. But there is no straight away for your horse to drag you down. They have to listen you you to figure out where to go next. And there are no ground poles to make her worry about where she is putting her feet.
This is all great people! Thanks for your reassurance! She is such a wonderful horse in so many ways and i had seriously thought about selling her over these issues, but she is a talented horse over fences, very athletic and actually really calm for an ottb otherwise!
All that said, she is super scopey (and/or overjumping), so from early on she could easily jump me out of the tack. I have a Black Country Vinici jump that fits her (I had a used saddle widened to tracings done by a saddle fitter. It is fairly minimal compared to a Wexford or something with a deeper seat and bigger blocks. I just thought I might feel trapped with her jump in that kind of saddle.
I’ll reiterate everything I said in my post 3 years ago.
My OTTB was (and still is) the same way. He’s now 18 years old, and has shown at 1.40m - 1.50m for 9 years. He’s a rock star over jumps and still won’t trot poles…and forget about cavaletti. He’s now okay at cantering poles, but that’s after many years of not being okay. I could never put trot poles into a gymnastics exercise (4.5’ poles), and he hated 9’ poles into an exercise, but would do them if I asked.
And yes, you’ll never run into ground poles at a horseshow, so why worry about it? Some horses are just funny that way.
Agreed. When a horse struggles with something they don’t really NEED to be able to do in their career, it’s sometimes better to just accept it and move on.
I had an OTTB that was an absolute rockstar 3’ hunter. Year-end awards every season, indoors almost every season, multiple adult medal and eq zone championships. He HATED shoulder in and would completely melt down if asked. He could leg yield happily on the straight or in counter-bend on a circle, and would counter-canter for a week.
So instead of causing this otherwise saintly horse to get stressed out with shoulder-in, I used other lateral movements. At the end of the day, he didn’t NEED to have shoulder-in on his resume for his chosen career.
