Groundwork for geezers

[HorsesinHaiti]

Hoover the creaky pony and I are trying to get educated, so he can develop the muscles he needs to deal with his creakiness. To summarize, he’s 15-16 YO, 3 years w/me. He has hind end issues from a dropped hip w/ some hypermobility, + a little arthritis in his rear ankles, so the vet wants him fit and muscled rather than being a pasture puff. He rides stiff as a board with common bracing and ‘default response is pulling back’ issues. For 2+ years I rode him walk only in an English mechanical hackamore. Can’t do ‘head to the side’ work in that w/o the cross tops tipping in and rubbing his cheeks (so did the rings on a crossover bitless setup).

So we’re learning groundwork in a rope halter and introducing a full-cheek snaffle. No instructors available, so I’m working off of Brannaman’s ‘7 clinics’ series. Skipping any training steps shows up immediately as the next step not working. I.e. Hoover doesn’t ‘get’ backing without having his feet freed up first, doesn’t get snaffle instructions until we’ve done the same thing first in the halter, etc. But if I ask him to do any tight work, ie involving rolling hinds, he can’t do it for long without it bothering his hind end. Good warmup and bute are already on board. Pivoting unmounted on a hind hoof bothers him much faster than does carrying me in a straight line. Added obstacle: we live on a rocky foothills slope, and the only rock-free spaces over 3 meters wide are a couple road intersections. Makes any kind of wide circle work rather interesting.

So how can I adjust the groundwork to go easy on making his hind legs pivot, but still teach him what he needs to know? And I might as well ask, how do you all spot ‘nagging sore’ vs. ‘don’t wanna work today’? I err on the side of bubble wrap because I was never taught how to pick up subtle soreness, but I can tell he’s much freer moving some days than others so I worry about pushing him too far.

[Bluey]

Did you mean to put this on the western forum?
I would guess you get more answers in the Off Course or Health one.

We had one old school horse that sounds like yours.
In those days, there was no retirement for them, but a one way trip you know where, which really, that was considered good animal husbandry when a horse was not quite right/sound like that and there was no bute to be had.

Anyway, we used old Arco, that was a smallish brown, fuzzy horse with a broad back for little kids half hour leadline and walk trot lessons, for short trail rides with tiny ones being led and for beginners vaulting lessons, where he only stood there, which seemed to be fine for him and not get sore from kids doing things on his back while he stood there, like ring around the world and scissors and learning to sit back down very gently.

Maybe you ought to consider not going there with doing what we do with an able bodied horse, but respect his limitations and invent work he can do, like we did for our Arco, that we called our stuffed toy horse?

Find some little kids to share him with, that could be as satisfying as making an adult proper riding horse out of him.

[HorsesinHaiti]

Thanks for asking, Bluey. I knew that question was coming, but the initial post was getting longer than people will read. When Hoover shows he’s clearly uncomfortable with me on him, he will just be a packpony with light loads. But he will still need manners, the ability to back up, get out of the way on trails and roads, get over his tendency to haul back when tied, etc, etc. He’ll still need to work correctly enough to use the hind end he has left, enough to keep the hip muscles strong enough to support the joint so he can stay comfortable and minimize further damage.

If I warm him up he is happy enough to walk along in straight lines with me aboard without limping or gimping. No trot or canter, just classic light trail sound. Rode him a half hour this morning and he was relaxed, happy, and stepped even and fairly fluidly - while poking along. I get off for steep hills, anything he says is uncomfortable. Like I said, I err on the side of bubble wrap and I’m trying to read him better.

Packing or riding, it is specifically torsion on the ankle/hip joints that seems to eventually get him sore. If able bodied horse groundwork is hard on him because of that torsion, I’d like to find things he can do more comfortably that will teach him the same lessons. Since he’s so bracey that is a real challenge, hence my questions as to what people have found works.

This is another location where pasture retirement just doesn’t happen. Local culture is, anything that clearly ‘isn’t getting used’ isn’t being ‘stolen’ if someone just takes it. If people don’t see me riding or packing Hoover, it is a given that he will disappear quickly and wind up in some local market as quarters of fake ‘beef’… so it’s good for his safety as well as his health if he keeps doing something ‘official’.

[HorsesinHaiti]

I could cross-post to horse care, but I’ve noticed that most of the people who use Dorrance-Hunt type groundwork have posted over here on Western. I thought I’d try here first. Anyone seen Pocket Pony?

[Bluey]

Ok, I won’t beat around the bush here, will say, the way so many NH type trainers handle horses is somewhat on the rough side, efficient and goal oriented, demanding horses be active and stepping up.

I too can make that happen, if maybe a bit quieter than they do.
Still, that may be not exactly what I would say a horse that needs to be bubble wrapped really needs any more.

I think what you are doing already is very good, that you want more is ok and doable to a point.

Lets see what the followers of those trainers tell you, will be interesting.

[Bluey]

You may consider looking into Ttouch and such other methods of training, if you have not yet:

http://www.ttouch.com/horseAnnouncements.shtml

Those techniques and ground and under saddle work are very good for horses like yours, geared more to the horse, not specific performance goals, although the practitioners work on many top performers also.

[Pocket_Pony]

OMG, how horrible that someone would just take your horse! I’ve never been summoned before, HiH, makes me feel special, although I don’t know that I have any specific good advice for you.

I will ask, though, what do you mean by “pivot” on his hind legs? Do you mean keep a hind foot stationary and move the front legs? Or do you mean keep a front leg stationary and move the hind?

You’ve said what he can’t do and what’s hard for him and a little bit about what he can do (walk in straight lines), but what is it you want him to do? Develop proper musculature to support the joints? Have good basic ground manners? Be soft in the bridle?

There are things you can do with him that would be less stressful than other things, for sure.

One thing to help with the brace is to separate his body into five parts and see what parts give and what parts resist and work from there (doing this from the ground and first and then when you’ve mastered it, try it from the saddle). Think of it as horsey yoga, not cowboy-type work. So, start at his head/poll. Can he gently flex side to side? No more than at the poll. Gently ask him to give from rein pressure on one side and then the other. Is it even on both sides? Is one side more difficult than the other? Can you develop a “flow” where you go easily from side to side?

When that checks out, move to the neck. Can he bend through the neck and bring his head around a little more to the side (and still stay centered, not tipping off-kilter)? Again, notice the difference in each side and see if you can work through the middle-point-stopping-resistance area.

When that checks out, move to the shoulders. Does he move his shoulders easily? For this you might stand in front of him in front of his head and ask him to follow the feel of your lead rope. If you bring your hand out to the side, does he follow it and shift his weight in preparation to move, or does he just look at you like you’re crazy? Repeat on each side. See if you can get him to shift his weight or take a step, or just be ready for whatever you might ask of him.

Move to the ribcage. Does he move over from pressure? How much pressure does it take? Do you have to lean in to him to get him to release, can you do it with just a finger, can you do it with just a touch, can you do it with a look and your body movement?

Go to the haunches. How much pressure does it take to get him to move over, stepping under with the inside hind leg (not behind the other leg, over and in front of)? Is it the same on both sides? Which side carries more resistance and how does it present itself? Can you move him with the hand, with a finger, with just your body positioning, with a look?

Stand at the near side of his body. Run the lead along the offside of his body and around the rump. Give a gentle pull so that his head will flex toward the offside and he will bend through the head, neck, ribcage, and release and step under with that hind leg. If you do this, make sure that your lead rope is plenty long enough so that there’s room between his butt and your body so that you don’t get kicked. Actually, make sure he’s good with ropes around his butt before you try this so that you don’t get kicked! I like this exercise and find it helps for suppling.

You don’t have to do a bunch of small circles over and over again, you just have to make sure the exercises you do are done well so that you don’t put additional stress on his body.

Another exercise I like I got from Bryan Neubert. If you don’t have an area where you can circle, then you can do it just as shallow serpentines. You’ll be walking backward and he’ll be walking toward you. This builds on the earlier “move the shoulders” exercise, so make sure you’ve got that one down first. Walk backward with him walking toward you (make sure he minds your space and doesn’t crowd you - if he does, that’s another lesson). Offer him a feel to follow by bringing your right hand out to the side - see if he follows it and moves in an arc around you. Walk straight a little bit, then see if he’ll follow the feel in the other direction, then straighten out. It is a bit hard to describe but basically you are doing a shallow serpentine. I use it for figure eight circles but if you don’t have room for that it might not work.

With horses who are injured or otherwise unable to physically work, I think the mental aspect of it is just as important. None of these exercises are physically demanding, but they do get to the brain of the horse and they give you an opportunity to assess movement and how the horse feels. You’ll be able to see if he takes a mis-step when moving the hind legs and how that might look or feel different from general “I don’t feel like it.” It might help you get a feel for his different body parts and what’s easy and what’s hard and how it changes from day to day. Taking it slow and easy and taking the pressure to perform off of him also allows you to treat it like PT vs. just exercises you have to go through because that’s “what you do” when doing ground work.

I have more ideas if these aren’t enough, but at least there are some basics for you to work with!

[HorsesinHaiti]

PP, I’m not asking for a spin-type pivot. You remember the various exercises on a 12’ lead rope? I’m trying to use those with Hoover, but I often don’t have flat space for a circle much bigger diameter than 15’ without us tripping over rocks and roots. At that diameter, if I ask him to roll his hindquarters over he does have to step under himself and then rotate the foot/ over the foot a bit, maybe only 5 degrees but there is still a bit of plant and turn movement. The inside hind ankle doesn’t working straight over the joint, it has to work a bit ‘sideways’. If he’s working his hind end around a small diameter, that creates just enough torque to eventually irritate his arthritis if he does that motion repeatedly for awhile. After 15 minutes he starts not crossing over behind and taking short, quicker steps.

I had a bout of Chikungunya Fever this year, I can relate! (that also creates joint inflammation/ temporary arthritis). I can somewhat read his comfort/discomfort responses, he doesn’t have to be hopping before I spot it. But I wish I were better at it.

I’ll give your ideas a good looking over. I am definitely thinking ‘physiotherapy’ as my main goal - muscle tone for joint support. I’d like to help him free up his body a bit so that life and work are easier on him. No way he’ll be a bridle horse! But I’d like to use tack that doesn’t rub his face when we get into arguments about if its grazing time or not. I want him to understand what I’m asking for, from the ground or the saddle, with much lighter cues than he needs now. If a truck or a person passes us on the road, or some other Get Outta the Way Now thing happens, I want to KNOW that he will move over on a light cue without an argument, so there’s no risk he’ll stick his butt out and get clipped.

ETA Your suggestions look good for him - getting similar mental responses without needing as much physical turning. He’s also much better at leading than at being sent right now, though we eventually have to fix that.

[Fillabeana]

OK, I’ll take a stab at this.

First, I would not have understood clearly what Buck is trying to accomplish on a physiological and physical level without having spent a LOT lot of time studying what Dr. Deb Bennett has written about, especially in her articles ‘How Horses Work’ for Eclectic Horseman magazine, and also in her online articles on her Equine Studies Institute 'Knowledge Base" page,
http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base_intro/knowledge_base_intro_choicepage.html
“Lessons From Woody”, “True Collection”, and “Ring of Muscles”.

The back issues of Eclectic Horseman are available as downloads at eclectic-horseman.com.

Anyway, I knew all of what Buck was doing was having good effects on my horse, but I was focused on the exercise (and the mental aspect of how the horse was doing things). Until I became really clear about what I was really asking the horse to do physically, the groundwork (and the ridden exercises, too, by the way) were not consistent or really helpful to the horse.

The good news is that in the groundwork, Buck is addressing two things fairly specifically, those being the poll joint and then the hips/sacroiliac area. You do not, in general, have to do big or athletic movements with the horse to get the horse to turn loose, release his brace, get movement in those joints. But you do have to know what you are asking the horse to do; ie where you want him to release his brace, how you want his body to move.

I would start by telling you that any mechanical or cross-under hackamore is going to confuse the issue-the horse pretty much has to respond to a pull, by bracing against it to some degree. A halter moves around on a horse’s face, especially a rope halter. A snaffle bit or a sidepull hackamore are the equipment you really want to work in addressing the poll joint, asking the horse to release SIDEWAYS…asking a braced horse to move his nose in a ‘yes’ motion pretty much assures wrong movement, with a frozen poll joint and hypermobility between C2 and C3.
I have spent time with the poll joint, just loving my horses in their pasture, using my hands to ask them to move their head in a ‘jaw tucking’ sideways motion. Once they turn loose and do that, I can move their head for them with my hands for the ‘yes’ movement, and only their poll joint moves, and freely.

The hind end…is going to be more of a challenge with an arthritic hip-sore old fellow who does not know how to carry himself in a turn properly.

Quite likely, when he learns to carry himself, his musculature will change and his joints won’t be taxed as much, so he will be much more able and willing to do some light work.

This was the part of Dr. Deb’s ‘Woody’ and “How Horses Work” that have taken me a lot longer to gain a reasonable understanding of. A horse must make a turn by stepping under to move his HQ to the OUTSIDE of a circle, in order to step around with the front end to make a turn.
I’m not saying the horse flings his hind end out…but he MUST displace his HQ outward to an increasing degree with a decreasing diameter circle. And in order to step outward like that, he has to release some pretty big braces in his body.

Now, a horse can move in a turn by bracing himself, falling over to the inside, and catching himself. Probably your pony has done that most of his life, and it is part of why he is so bodysore at this point.

Most of Buck’s exercises are specifically addressing this correct movement, this turning loose of the hindquarters and using them properly. But they might be too much sometimes for your arthritic fellow.
So you’ll have to learn what rebalancing and what hind end movement you are asking for, and learn to ask for it in a smaller dose.

Having help is a good thing, from somebody who is GOOD at this stuff, but that might be hard to find in Haiti. You might have to get your help when you visit the US, but there’s no reason you can’t learn this stuff…but making some of the fundamental changes to your understanding of how the horse works can be a bear. I know it was not easy for me but it has been one of the most rewarding pursuits of my life.

[monstrpony]

I’ve got one who needs the PT as much as anything else with this work. He’s inclined to plant himself in the ground and brace that way, and I know his joints don’t need that, so I keep the moving haunches and forehand a bit more moving forward until he warms up his body and lets go in his mind. Just something to consider. Doesn’t have to be a big circle, just make sure there is a forward component to it.

[HorsesinHaiti]

Fillabeana, thanks! I’d heard good things about Dr. Bennett from my trimming training, but didn’t realize she had done such extensive work on biomechanics. I’ll downloaded the first article last night.

Monstrpony, I’ve noticed the same thing. I tend to do our groundwork during or after taking Hoover out walking for the same reason.

Bluey, I haven’t found much explanation of TTouch exercises via googling yet, what I’ve found has been more ‘how to massage your horse’ type things than biomechanical approaches. Massage might help but his biomechanics and bracing issues go deeper than just that. Do you have some better links as to what the TTouch system is?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;7818284]
Fillabeana, thanks! I’d heard good things about Dr. Bennett from my trimming training, but didn’t realize she had done such extensive work on biomechanics. I’ll downloaded the first article last night.

Monstrpony, I’ve noticed the same thing. I tend to do our groundwork during or after taking Hoover out walking for the same reason.

Bluey, I haven’t found much explanation of TTouch exercises via googling yet, what I’ve found has been more ‘how to massage your horse’ type things than biomechanical approaches. Massage might help but his biomechanics and bracing issues go deeper than just that. Do you have some better links as to what the TTouch system is?[/QUOTE]

What you are looking to do to help your horse seems to be along the lines of what Ttouch does, more than riding techniques to have a horse perform a certain way.

Here is some on these techniques:

http://www.ttouch.com/whyTTEAM.shtml

http://www.icefarm.com/tteamAbout.shtml

Ttouch is complimentary to any other you do.

You may work on what any others explain to have a horse move a certain way so it is more efficient when, say, working cattle or going over obstacles, but the underlying exercises that get the horse’s body to be where it can move however you ask it to is what Ttouch addresses.

Ttouch is about guidelines you can adapt and adjust to what you have in your horse, ideas to build on, similar to doing calisthenics before you go on to your gymnastic or tennis or football practice.

For what you were telling us, it seemed Ttouch is something your horse could use and it can be done any place, anywhere, doesn’t require any other than you and your horse, if you are in a small space or out in the wide open.

[Fillabeana]

HIH,
the other part that Dr. Deb understands and tries to communicate is the deep emotional work, the communication on a feel rather than a mechanical signal.

She has a book on CD that she calls ‘The Birdie Book’ that communicates these ideas (the same ones that Buck has working for him that makes it look like ‘magic’ sometimes).

Worth looking into, because Hoover has to let go of his braces both physically and emotionally.

About the pulling back…that can be changed, too. It might take a while before you have the tools and the clarity to do it. I know it took about three years studying and practicing this type of horsemanship before it was more than a mystery to me. Yet my helper (who spent a lot of time with Ray Hunt, and who Buck calls if he needs help with a clinic in the region) can get that ‘lead right up without even thinking of setting back’ working for him in 10 minutes (on a horse with a pulling-back problem).

Some of the TTouch work might be great for just finding a nice mental space for you and Hoover, building trust and empathy from both sides.

[Shermy]

Can u pony him off another horse? Move him around a bit and just get him moving w/out the extra weight of a rider? Just a thought, but I would avoid tiny circles. I would think being horseback would give you a lot more mobility w/him.

[HorsesinHaiti]

Shermy, he’s the only pony around here that’s large enough and well fed enough for me to ride.

Fillabeana, you are very right that he was never taught HOW to carry himself and a person, so he tends to just swing his forequarters in when he turns and not bend. I get the basics of the Woody article, learning how to make the application work is what takes time. Mostly on my end.

Hoover and I have been trying several of y’all’s suggestions, as much as climate and work schedules allow. The day I got him from tie-out and found we were both sweat-soaked just looking at each other is the day we practiced ‘standing for a bath’ ;). He likes and regularly gets curry mitt massages and I’ll look into other techniques.

Me learning ‘feel’ and how to be light myself was the first thing we worked on groundwork-wise. I’m slowly getting better. I joke that I’m not learning to train Hoover, I myself am taking remedial Speech Therapy! He’s now fairly light on the lead rope if I’m leading him, including if I walk backwards and ask him to switch from one side of the road/ space to the other. Leading him works fine with a very light hold on the leadrope – until he spots a grass patch and his ‘birdie’ flies off.

He doesn’t ‘send’ well yet if I’m at his shoulder or further back. Time to cut another tree branch and flag him, but he spent years as a pack horse being hit from behind to move him on so he’s still anxious about flags and such. He can do the through-the-gate manoever pretty well (which is roll hinds and then roll forequarters) though I have to ask before he’ll complete bringing his forehand around so I can reach the gate latch.

[HorsesinHaiti]

He can still be Gumby Horse neck through ribcage when he wants to scratch an itch. The bending exercises are working pretty contextually, though. In a rope halter in the pen, he gives me a ?? and braces up. Leading, I have trouble keeping him moving and asking for a bend. Hard to get much bend from out in front. But strolling down trails in the full cheek snaffle today, he was quite light to the bit and much more willing to bend his neck around in either direction. Bending in that context made more sense to him. I noticed he was ‘birdie-watching’ all over the place while out and about, which I think was the difference!

We’d been doing some in hand ‘give to the snaffle’ exercises in hand this week. He’d been head tossing and fighting me at times, and I realized I hadn’t shown him enough yet how the snaffle worked – I’d started getting firm and waiting for his response before I made sure I’d truly gotten clear about ‘how snaffles work differently from your hackamore’, so he’d toss his head and stick his tongue over to say whaaat???

Back to remedial school for mom. When I figured out on the ground how to ask light and release fast, he settled in the snaffle and responded really lightly for a completely green horse. Until he spotted a tender patch of grass and the ‘eating or working’ argument came up again.

[Bluey]

Sounds like you are doing great with him, using your imagination and what you have to work with.

You will be surprised where you both will be in a few weeks of practice.

Do you have anyone that may take some pictures, if too shy for pictures, of the little fellow?
It helps putting a face of who we are talking with/about, including a horse face.

[HorsesinHaiti]

Here’s a couple quick photos from today, with the light fading. Hoover is a very particular pony with a very Calvinesque opinion of photos. Especially if flashes or edible backgrounds are involved.

One of the Calvin shots shows the hypermobility in his hip - horses can do that move but shouldn’t be so lax about doing it at rest the way Hoover often does. A visiting vet confirmed the looseness in the joint with some manipulation tests right after we gelded him. Vet’s suggestion is that this hip will be better off if he keeps the hip muscles well conditioned and firm. He has more of a stereotypical ‘flabby butt’ now, even if he doesn’t look fat.

[Bluey]

Thank you for the pictures, he looks like a patient soul to work with there.

Did the vet said it was ok to try to ride him, with that hip so lax in the socket?
Did he think it was a malformed socket or loose ligaments and if so, what from?
Building those muscles around it tighter would help keep it in place, but would riding him aggravate that?
Is it only on that one side, or both?

I am sure you are already careful not to overflex, just enough to keep him loose may be enough, with all else going on there.

It is so nice that you can give him your time and energy to make his life better, sounds like that is not very common where you are.

[HorsesinHaiti]

The vets said and keep saying he is OK for me at my weight to ride him, and that it will do him good, so long as I’m careful about what we do. No chance of pelvic xrays or ultrasound here. Just from observation, I’d say its mostly stretched tendons. He does reasonably well on flexion tests and has a full range of motion in that one hip. The other hip seems fine.

When Hoover’s motivated (i.e., I HATE SHOTS AND YOU HAFTA MAKE ME!) he can haul back and give his hips a real 30 minute workout without getting ‘lame’, though I bet he’s sore afterwards and I don’t work with him 1-2 days afterwards. Every time I’ve asked the vet to do an evaluation after annual shots, he fights her so hard that by the time she’s done she says, well he can’t be hurting too much and he moves evenly after all that, keep riding him!

We don’t know what happened as it clearly happened long before I bought him, but the diagnosing vet thought it was an accident of some sort when he was much younger. The arthritis is a bit worse in his opposite hind ankle, we think that’s a relic of overcompensating while the hip healed. He seems more comfortable with a bit of bute for farrier work and for riding, so I make sure he gets it.

He was plenty energetic today when I rode him around, loose and swinging and willing to move out a bit, so it wasn’t bothering him to be ridden. No short-stepping, no clear bailing off the leg as he loaded it the way arthritic horses often do. We ambled around the up-sloping area between my house and the real foothills until we reached a bit steeper slope where he seemed to back off a bit. I wasn’t sure if he was sore or just wanted to turn around and check out a grassy area but I played it safe and turned back to toodle around campus for the rest of the ride. Steeper slopes sometimes bother him and I get off if we need to traverse a section of those.

And no, most local people wouldn’t worry about any of this, they work half to death no matter what hurts so they push the animals the same way - and don’t feed retirees.