Groundwork: signal to yield hindquarters

[Red_Barn]

Yep. Bluey’s right on.

Once you’ve built in these gigantic, exaggerated reactions, it’s extremely hard to get rid of them.

Suppose, for example, that you want to ride an ordinary leg yield. If you’re riding a horse that “yields” wildly at the very slightest suggestion, you’re absolutely screwed here, because the horse will evade leg aids for ever after, and you’ll never get the healthy, gymnastic bend you need for even this basic exercise to be useful - never mind actually moving on from there.

Same deal with horses that are endlessly drilled to “disengage” in the one-rein stop. Here you end up with a flabby, noodle-necked mess, and you’ll never get an honest rein contact, no matter how tactful you may be. All that drilling to “yield” simply trains them to evade contact forever, and trying to get past this is just one long nightmare.

Honestly. These points are so obvious that I can only assume that devotees of these methods really don’t care very much about the traditional ridden disciplines - at least as the rest of us know them.

[Altermyne]

@Red Barn;8616995

Yep. Bluey’s right on.

Once you’ve built in these gigantic, exaggerated reactions, it’s extremely hard to get rid of them.

when I started my older mare, she was far too sensitive and had some pretty exaggerated reactions. She doesn’t now. I didn’t really work on it, just sorta kept doing what I was doing and we came to a mutually agreeable level of sensitivity. If she over reacted, we worked on desensing her and if she got dull, I reminded her that she needed to get to work. It’s not that difficult. It’s mostly about balance.

The disengaging was very important last summer. I was riding when the husband of the barn owner entered the arena with a tractor and bucket. My mare had seen this outside but never moving and it frightened her, so we did a little disengaging and that kept her in the arena without me pulling on her mouth.

Your mileage may vary, but honestly, if this is what you get, and you can’t get beyond that or improve it, I’m not sure it’s the method.

[Wirt]

The crouching, exaggerated body moves. Parelli started that.
It’s nothing. Unimportant. Meaningless and useless. But it adds drama and effect. As if it makes you look you are doing something important.

In general, pretty natural thing for a horse to do. Very basic, if you tip their nose left, they will almost automatically step over behind to the right. In fact. harder to teach them to stand square and not do that. But you can use that impulse to your advantage.

This constant disengaging thing has gotten old for me. I see it as something people do because they don’t know what else to do, and they saw someone else do it.

I understand, take their head away and kick their hind quarters around. That’s how you might get control of a very green colt. You may need to do it once. After that, all you need from them is a step forward and under behind. Ask with a lift of your rein or lead rope. One step. You can do this standing perfectly still, and not say a thing or do a thing other than lift your lead. The rest is a show.

[Red_Barn]

[QUOTE=Altermyne;8617008]

. . . Your mileage may vary, but honestly, if this is what you get, and you can’t get beyond that or improve it, I’m not sure it’s the method . . . [/QUOTE]
Hey, I’m the first to admit that I may be a complete and utter moron. But there are so many sane, sensible and accomplished people sharing my bafflement that I’m pretty confident that, at least in this case, it’s not just me.

I do understand the desire to be safe, and I also understand that many NH devotees are beginners. That’s fine. My objection is to exaggerating this need for safety and control to the point that it dominates one’s entire schooling program, and makes perfectly nice horses very difficult to train past this point.

[Foxtrot_s]

There is no hard and fast way to ask a horse to move away - eventually it is refined to a mere flick of a finger, lean of the body, lift of the rope while keeping a wow in it…

Just this week I was glad of her ability to do these simple manoeuvres - my mare had got a little less attentive, so five minutes of this and she’s back to her better self.

Some of these posters have had the misfortune to get mixed up with some really overdone NH work and that is sad…most of us have done less drilling and demanding and don’t call it NH.

[BatataHead]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8616258]

I try to get my horses tuned in to me enough that the intent behind what I’m asking is clear, regardless of what I’m doing. [/QUOTE]

I really like your statement above. The “getting the horse tuned in” is part of what I’m after in doing groundwork. By asking a bit more of my horse in a deliberate way, and practicing/refining my communication with him, I do feel that he is a lot more attentive now - he’s tuning in more to see what’s next. And if he’s paying close attention, he will react to the more subtle gestures and requests, and read my intent better.

[BatataHead]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;8616333]
:lol: Wow, really? I’ve never seen anybody do the crouching thing. So glad you prepared me in case I ever do.

I just switch hands, shorten up and lift the lead rope, and walk towards the hip with my flag.[/QUOTE]

Never? Maybe it is because I’ve watched so many hours of this that I’ve “sensitized” myself to it and anytime I see someone even think of lean forward I get my knickers in a twist over it. Well, if I catch you on youtube scrambling at your horse’s hind end like a manic hunchback I’ll be sure to leave a snarky comment! (jk!!).

I’m so tempted to link to a video of this, but it wouldn’t be very nice of me so I’ll refrain.

[BatataHead]

.

[BatataHead]

I’m enjoying all the responses and I’m totally aware that the groundwork subject can be inflammatory (sometimes just an offhand reference to “NH” online is as dangerous as screaming “fire” in a movie theatre), so thanks all for playing well together! By the way, if there are any young COTHERs on this thread you have no idea how cool it is to be able to chat with such a far flung variety of horse people online like this. “Back in the day” this was unimaginable.

Your responses are definitely informing my groundwork adventure. As I mentioned in my first post, I’m trying to sift through what’s out there in horsemanship world, modify, adjust, tweak, reject, select and refine and hope to one day interact with and ride my horse as an art form, or a meditation, not just a sport (another benefit of conversation in an online forum is being able to say stuff like that while remaining blissfully unaware of all the eyes rolling!). I’m not just looking to groundwork methods for this - my search is far and wide but the groundwork thing is fairly new for me.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=downen;8616456]
Interesting conversation. I am familiar with the NH crouching, as well as the rope twirling and snap clanking. I am not a fan of any of it.

In contrast, my daughter and I audited a George Williams clinic at Tempel Farms a few weekends ago. We were treated to a demonstration of in-hand work by the trainers with the stallions. They were working on airs above the ground, and one stallion in particular was literally explosive, firing into the air on multiple occasions. The trainer handling him was the epitome of calm, and thus the stallion’s energy never escalated into disobedience. I am certain a crouching position, wiggling of the longe line or any such exaggerated cue would have sent that particular stallion into the stratosphere. Bluey is right, horseman have been training from the ground for centuries without have to resort to what to me seems to be over the top theatrics.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, I don’t see how you can infer that a good horseman (even of the NH persuasion) would have been “loud” with that already hepped up stallion. So I don’t see how someone else handling an explosive horse calmly and with success says anything about what an NH professional would do.

[Red_Barn]

I think her point, MVP, is that the various practitioners of “NH” haven’t actually invented anything. They’ve just repackaged and renamed extremely rudimentary skills to make it seem like something magical is being accomplished.

To me, this is like charging newbie drivers gazillions of dollars for a remedial class that spends all its time adjusting mirrors and putting on seat belts. (Excuse me - I mean, “redefining the visual field” and “engaging the midsection”.) Highly profitable for the pundits, sure, but essentially smoke and mirrors in practical terms.

[downen]

[QUOTE=mvp;8617273]
To be fair, I don’t see how you can infer that a good horseman (even of the NH persuasion) would have been “loud” with that already hepped up stallion. So I don’t see how someone else handling an explosive horse calmly and with success says anything about what an NH professional would do.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think you understood my point at all. I was contrasting classical training with widespread NH practices. And if you want to see an example how a NH “professional” handles a high strung horse, all you need to do is google “Parelli” and “Catwalk.” I know there are good NH trainers out there (see the Parker thread), but sadly they are getting overshadowed by the high profile NH marketers who are making money on impressionable people by teaching them poor horsemanship.

[MoonWitch]

I agree with many of the posts here. You want them to move away from you when asked but not have it be an overreaction. I just worked with my mare this weekend since she had started to revert to some unsafe behaviors. Within minutes, she had tuned in, focused and did what was asked of her, without me saying a word. It’s all about body language and posture. Then, last night when bringing her in, I asked for her to turn so I could close the gate and only had to flick my finger for her to move her HQs out of the way. It’s all about speaking a language they can understand; no magic here!

[Abbie.S]

There’s two reasons I’ve come across that people teach their horses to disengage, and there’s only one I’ve found that actually valid, IMHO.

There’s the “teach your horse to move his butt away because that’s the most dangerous part of him” thinkers, and then there’s the “teach your horse to bring his hind leg under his body and cross over as both an exercise in submission and as his first introduction to engaging his abs and using the inside hind” thinkers. I’ve gone with the latter. It’s a much more useful school of thinking that you build on throughout the horse’s career.

The former was a Parelli idea. We all know how useful Parelli thinking is, and who it tends to be aimed it. Sure, you can move your horse’s butt around all day, but unless it has some deeper purpose, it’s not much of a tool. It’s designed to help scared older women feel more confident about their horse handling, if we’re being honest.

If you look at folks like the Dorrance brothers, Buck, Harry Whitney, Ray Hunt, etc., they only exaggerate the motion when they are teaching the horse and he’s not getting it. Very quickly, the horse is moving off nothing more than a slight lift of the hand or a shift in weight from the handler. And then they move on to building on the request, not sitting there diddling around with disengaging all day.

[MoonWitch]

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;8617465]
The former was a Parelli idea. We all know how useful Parelli thinking is, and who it tends to be aimed it. Sure, you can move your horse’s butt around all day, but unless it has some deeper purpose, it’s not much of a tool. It’s designed to help scared older women feel more confident about their horse handling, if we’re being honest.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, I’ve been around horses my whole life and we were doing this long before Parelli ever came on the scene. If they disengage on the ground, they understand the request when mounted as well. Not only for obvious reasons but also the more subtle, riding reasons to do so.

[Altermyne]

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;8617465]
There’s two reasons I’ve come across that people teach their horses to disengage, and there’s only one I’ve found that actually valid, IMHO.

There’s the “teach your horse to move his butt away because that’s the most dangerous part of him” thinkers, and then there’s the “teach your horse to bring his hind leg under his body and cross over as both an exercise in submission and as his first introduction to engaging his abs and using the inside hind” thinkers. I’ve gone with the latter. It’s a much more useful school of thinking that you build on throughout the horse’s career. [/QUOTE]

there is also the physics. A runaway horse, that steps under himself cannot move forward as well, and what you do is basically disengage the engine. But, you have to teach this as a cue, before you get to the runaway and most people don’t do that.

I do agree tho, that stepping under, is just useful on many levels.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Red Barn;8616824]
I also agree with BeeHoney.

I don’t understand this bizarre fashion for making a huge production out of simple handling methods that used to be taught in a few five minute sessions, and without any fanfare whatsoever.

Now every little thing - leading, backing, “yielding” this, and “disengaging” that - is a massive psychodrama of cosmic proportions. The horses clearly hate all the drilling, and I really don’t see the point.

Seriously. Other than putting off the trauma of actually learning to ride, what is all this fussing supposed to accomplish?

[/QUOTE]

I think some clinicians I’ve seen do purposely make a huge drama out of things, just to sort of set the stage of “I’m an expert and I can handle this horse” - meanwhile, they’ve riled it up to a high level of anxiety and then they bring it back down again.

On one hand, they could be teaching a horse how to get down from a state of anxiety by developing a set of skills and working with a handler on how to focus on the person and work within and eventually through the anxiety.

On the other hand, it could just be a gimmicky sort of thing to do.

Personally, I don’t like working with people like that because I don’t want their crazy energy around my horses (one guy I’ve watched a couple times seems to just ooze electricity from his being that puts the horses on high alert).

I will say, though, that I turned to “NH” (a term I hate) when I got a horse with whom the traditional methods I had learned didn’t really work (been riding for 30+ years, most always in a training program, so I wasn’t a newbie to horses). A dressage trainer I was with at the time pretty much just wanted to put him in tight side reins and lunge him, and that wasn’t a direction I wanted to go in. After a pretty bad fall, I had to find a different way to work with/get through to this horse.

My goal is always riding, though. I used NH-type stuff to develop a common language with this horse (who, as a mustang, didn’t have regular contact with people in his formative years, so didn’t understand things that a “normal” horse his age would have/should have), to get him tuned in to me, to keep me safe, to improve his trainability. The experience was so important to both of us. I don’t do much ground work with him now, but what I learned was invaluable.

Now that I have my pony that I’m training, I don’t really find that I need it to the extent that I did with my mustang. She was brought up right, handled well all along, and wants to please and get along. I’ve done a little bit with her, but she so “gets it” naturally that I would feel like I were drilling her if I focused on it. So we do a few exercises here and there, but nothing like I did with my mustang - she’s always engaged with me and has progressed so much more quickly in her general training than he did.

In some instances, yes, I think people want horses a pets and they are too afraid to ride so they “do” NH/groundwork/Parelli as their “sport” - hey, if it keeps them safe then I guess it is a good tool. If they piss off their horses, then they’ve gone too far. But, then again, they might piss off their horses under saddle, too.

[Altermyne]

@Pocket Pony;8617586

I think some clinicians I’ve seen do purposely make a huge drama out of things, just to sort of set the stage of “I’m an expert and I can handle this horse” - meanwhile, they’ve riled it up to a high level of anxiety and then they bring it back down again.

On one hand, they could be teaching a horse how to get down from a state of anxiety by developing a set of skills and working with a handler on how to focus on the person and work within and eventually through the anxiety.

yep, teaching a horse how to cope is better in the long run than simple management (being able to sit the buck/spook/rear) as who knows where the horse will end up if you can’t keep it. Having a horse with this skill set, get riled up, self calming, will make them more useful to more people. Anyone who makes it about the drama, well, that’s just not good horsemanship.

Personally, I don’t like working with people like that because I don’t want their crazy energy around my horses (one guy I’ve watched a couple times seems to just ooze electricity from his being that puts the horses on high alert).

or it teaches your horse to ignore the environment, but if you don’t like it, you don’t.

I will say, though, that I turned to “NH” (a term I hate) when I got a horse with whom the traditional methods I had learned didn’t really work (been riding for 30+ years, most always in a training program, so I wasn’t a newbie to horses). A dressage trainer I was with at the time pretty much just wanted to put him in tight side reins and lunge him, and that wasn’t a direction I wanted to go in. After a pretty bad fall, I had to find a different way to work with/get through to this horse.

good for you and good for him to find a way. It’s all about what the horse can understand and I firmly believe it’s up to the human part of the equation to find those lines of communication.

My goal is always riding, though. I used NH-type stuff to develop a common language with this horse (who, as a mustang, didn’t have regular contact with people in his formative years, so didn’t understand things that a “normal” horse his age would have/should have), to get him tuned in to me, to keep me safe, to improve his trainability. The experience was so important to both of us. I don’t do much ground work with him now, but what I learned was invaluable.

With Warwick, riding safely is the goal. Either to simply have a mount that you can get on and not get bucked off of, or to trail ride or to compete. It’s always geared toward getting up in the saddle. Sometimes it takes a little longer, depending on the confidence level of the rider (I’m a re-rider nearly 60 and my confidence was shot to 'ell a long time ago), how adept they are at transferring the gw to mounted work and it depends on the horse as well. So sometimes, gw is where it starts and stays for a bit.

[tabula_rashah]

[QUOTE=sherian;8616801]
I am with Beehoney. It is really annoying to work with a horse that has been taught that, bloody hard to fix a leg strap or paint a hind hoof for the ring when the damn horse keeps going sideways. Just teach the horse “stand” and “over”.[/QUOTE]

That just means it wasn’t taught properly. My horses all yield very easily, but it’s a specific cue. They also stand perfectly still if I ask them to do that.

[tabula_rashah]

Just to throw this out there. Here’s a guy who is using “natural horsemanship” methods and actually doing something with them. I have worked with him personally and he is awesome- the horses seem to love him too. Tristan Tucker method