Groundwork styles

[colorfan]

I have been looking at my old John Lyons training and several newer ones, one actually rides English.

One young mare I trained I did such a bang up job getting her soft in the face she refused to take any contact when I tried to ride her.
Lesson: what you do on the ground should translate into something useful in the saddle.
I still teach some give to pressure, especially at first so they understand being tied but not to the extent I did with that mare lol

With the exception of JL all, including the English rider used some form of shake the lead rope at the horse to get them to back up. In every case this results in a horse that throws their head up, at least to start with.
I work hard to develop long and low, and a soft response to backing so it doesn’t seem right to teach throw your head up and then back up, from the ground.

Some of the western guys are particular about how the feet move when doing turn on the fore, turn on the haunches, they want the front or back to pivot, I teach these at walk so they translate better under saddle.

Have you come across other groundwork lessons that don’t translate well under saddle?

[Scribbler]

@colorfan

I have been looking at my old John Lyons training and several newer ones, one actually rides English.

One young mare I trained I did such a bang up job getting her soft in the face she refused to take any contact when I tried to ride her.
Lesson: what you do on the ground should translate into something useful in the saddle.
I still teach some give to pressure, especially at first so they understand being tied but not to the extent I did with that mare lol

With the exception of JL all, including the English rider used some form of shake the lead rope at the horse to get them to back up. In every case this results in a horse that throws their head up, at least to start with.
I work hard to develop long and low, and a soft response to backing so it doesn’t seem right to teach throw your head up and then back up, from the ground.

Some of the western guys are particular about how the feet move when doing turn on the fore, turn on the haunches, they want the front or back to pivot, I teach these at walk so they translate better under saddle.

Have you come across other groundwork lessons that don’t translate well under saddle?

When I say “good girl” under saddle maresy plants her feet and turns around for a treat.

Western riders want their horses behind the bit. English riders want them on the bit. In either case I see no reason to shake the lead rope except in an emergency or if they are super pushy. And then once and done. It’s not a cue

Western and English riders envision lateral, pirouette spin, turn on the forehand, differently so you do need to know your desired outcome.

I do ground work especially at liberty but I also do in hand dressage work and blend the two so we are doing say shoulder in either in a halter or at liberty.

I avoid the whole one rein stop and untracking the hind quarters because it throws the horse on the forehand in a counter productive way.

[Bogey2]

My trainer told me many years ago to make sure if I worked with a colt starter to start my horse that I needed to remind him the horse had to accept contact not back off it. So I had to make sure he didn’t lower the bit for one thing.
Now I tend to use more of the Morten Thomsen ground work that gets the horse to focus and yield to pressure.

[Caol_Ila]

I do a lot of groundwork but it’s a kind of muddled hybrid of Western and classical. I taught my young PRE to pivot over her hindquarters, like the Western people, but also to leg yield and shoulder-in in hand. I have just started her under saddle. In a loping hackamore.

I really hate the shakey leadrope and some of the harsher approaches you see in some natural horsemanship trainers. There are some trainers who will shank the hell out of a horse with a rope halter for small infractions/mistakes or for missing a cue. Teaches respect, apparently. My Highland was trained this way (before I owned him). I boarded my old horse briefly at the barn he went to (total coincidence…and a story…and a COTH thread) so I know how they train. His ground manners are flawless. However, when you’re asking him to turn around you or back up, he does it quickly, responsively, but with a lot of tension.

The PRE, on the other hand, is quick and responsive enough, but not as much so as Highland. She is 100% more relaxed, though. She knows if she misses a cue or gets distracted or whatever, the worst that will happen is that I’ll calmly ask again. Though I’ve never shanked or shaken a rope at him, it’s always in the back of the Highland’s mind that it could happen.

Makes it harder to teach him new groundwork. I made an attempt to teach him the in-hand leg yield and shoulder-in, and he got stressed and just fired frantically through his repertoire of behaviours he already knows, in a high-arousal state, where he wasn’t going to learn anything. He’s afraid that a mistake will mean me snapping the rope at him and chasing him backwards across the arena. I left it. He can do those movements ridden, so teaching them in hand was just something to do but not that important.

[colorfan]

I agree, as much as I want to train actions I also want to train a willingness to learn and confidence.

[outerbanks77]

I feel like, in general western groundwork is aimed more at expediency in getting a horse prepared to ride and generally safe to be around. Groundwork to prepare a dressage horse, is more geared towards teaching posture, carriage and lateral work in a way that can be integrated with the riding over time to complement it. For example, round-penning to teach the horse to read body language and learn personal space, vs. lunging in side reins, or other methods of lunging focused on teaching the horse to balance and bend on a circle. Of course there will always be crossover or commonality, but the methods should suit the objectives.

[wsmoak]

You might like Amy Skinner. She talks a lot about handling the rope and reins.

ETA: here’s a post of hers with a video in the comments: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=4819698178084866&set=a.934096733311716

Handling that jerks, fumbles, wobbles, flops or disturbs the lead rope in meaningless ways will produce a brace in the poll and the neck.

The rope wiggling cue for backing is not my favorite either, but it is not meant to be done forever. In the same way you might ride with hands wider than normal at first, it is a training cue. The goal is to get a response with body language, intent, and the lightest touch on the rope. The only time I’d do enough to get a head thrown up is if they were really not listening and were invading my space. At that point I am getting big and getting a reaction. Humans are squishy, when I say move out of my space it means MOVE.

[colorfan]

I don’t disagree with your idea but what I see is high headedness. Yes, if the horse won’t get out of my space I can get pretty big, but this is at the end of a 8-12 rope, not in my space.

I will check out Amy Skinner.

Years ago I started and retrained quite a few, haven’t done it for a bit so am just reviewing.

[luvmyhackney]

I really like the TRT method and Warwick Schiller ground work.

I hate the shakey rope to back up and the turn and face at the halt.

My horses aren’t fancy dressage horses, first level at best but I can trust non-horsey people to handle them due to how respectful and chill they have become following a combo of those methods.

[Scribbler]

What you can get away with doing with a QH versus an Iberian is a huge difference. You can “bad cowboy” a QH and get an acceptable outcome. Whereas of you treated an Iberian that way they would have an absolute meltdown.

I’ve been doing a lot of groundwork with a Lusitano cross “fallen through the cracks” mare and at first, anything I did resulted in her running backwards, sitting down, and rearing. That included picking up a longe whip, pulling on the lead rope, picking up a hoof, putting on a bridle, trying to lead her anywhere.

I’ve never shaken a lead rope at her, I feel it would set us back majorly. I ended up doing a lot of liberty with her because there was no chance I’d get frustrated and try to haul on her halter. By liberty I mean no halter. I do use a longe whip now and she doesn’t mind it. But mostly voice and hand cues.

[pick_a_pony]

Turning to face at the halt is a huge pet peeve of mine. You can see me just fine out the side of your eye why the heck do you need to face me? I have had to untrain that from almost every horse I have bought. I have also found that horses that do it have little experience or confidence working truly away from a person. Ground driving being the real eye opener with that. Yeah they can run around in a round pen off voice cues but lunging in an open space is totally different and walking on command while I am at the rump is just mind blowing. Not sure why so many people don’t ground driving more. Installing steering and brakes before getting up on them is quite nice.

[Scribbler]

@pick_a_pony

Turning to face at the halt is a huge pet peeve of mine. You can see me just fine out the side of your eye why the heck do you need to face me? I have had to untrain that from almost every horse I have bought. I have also found that horses that do it have little experience or confidence working truly away from a person. Ground driving being the real eye opener with that. Yeah they can run around in a round pen off voice cues but lunging in an open space is totally different and walking on command while I am at the rump is just mind blowing. Not sure why so many people don’t ground driving more. Installing steering and brakes before getting up on them is quite nice.

Turning to face the handler is also quite natural for horses so no great show of “respect” or whatever. Any horse running at liberty will.swing round to face the item of interest person horse dog cow etc when they halt.

[colorfan]

yes right! I think they just don’t know how and really it isn’t promoted. Not often you see any trainers talking about ground driving anymore.

[sascha]

@luvmyhackney

I hate the shakey rope to back up and the turn and face at the halt.

This. With the passion a thousand burning suns.

The turn and face at the halt can be a real bugger to train out of some horses. And the shaky rope thing? OMG. Hate. Hate. Hate. Teach the horse to listen to the person, not the equipment, ffs.

[Mander]

@Scribbler

I ended up doing a lot of liberty with her because there was no chance I’d get frustrated and try to haul on her halter. By liberty I mean no halter. I do use a longe whip now and she doesn’t mind it. But mostly voice and hand cues.

Love that you pointed this out. It’s very easy to use halters/ropes/whatever as a crutch for when you get frustrated and sometimes taking those tools out of the picture is important to protect us from ourselves, especially with the sensitive/unforgiving types. We’re only human, after all.

[pick_a_pony]

I am not meaning it’s a respect thing. I am meaning that there is no reason for people to train horses to do it. Horses see your cues just fine from the side so what is the point in having them turn to face you? If anything it is more dangerous as they are facing you if they have a baby moment or something spooks them as they are facing right at you.

[Mondo]

@pick_a_pony

Turning to face at the halt is a huge pet peeve of mine. You can see me just fine out the side of your eye why the heck do you need to face me? I have had to untrain that from almost every horse I have bought.

So much this! ^^
Gah! Wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve had to fix this issue in a training horse. It’s so unnecessary, yet all the Western folks train it.

[atr]

Mine came with the anxiety-ridden Piaffe button installed. Put a dressage whip anywhere near his hindquarters when you were standing next to him holding the reins and off he went like he was treading grapes for a living…

Total PITA to uninstall.

[outerbanks77]

@colorfan

yes right! I think they just don’t know how and really it isn’t promoted. Not often you see any trainers talking about ground driving anymore.

Check out Double Dan Horsemanship. They don’t really do ground driving so much as double-lunging/long lining, but it’s not too far removed. Worked well on my WB who thought lunging on one line was a good opportunity to exert dominance and dive in at me (I’ve taught plenty of horses to lunge and never had these issues). Anyway, they have some pretty good DVDs, and I don’t remember any of the rope shaking/backing up business, but it’s been a couple years.

[wsmoak]

@Scribbler

What you can get away with doing with a QH versus an Iberian is a huge difference. You can “bad cowboy” a QH and get an acceptable outcome. Whereas of you treated an Iberian that way they would have an absolute meltdown.

Definitely this… I had a Connemara Pony in a horsemanship based program and it was not a good fit. It wasn’t one of the relationship-y programs, it was an older style, very transactional system. He wasn’t really allowed to have an opinion and wow did it make him anxious. I then watched a Frisian in the same program have a similar reaction and become very difficult to handle. The array of QH types that they usually have coming through however do “fine”.

Now that I understand more about what was happening, I see that many of them just kind of go inside and shut down and perform the movements if it is not also paired with connection work where their human listens to them. It’s fine to require obedience sometimes. But not always, not if you want trust and connection.