I believe WE is an offshoot of Doma Vaquera and not so much Alta Escuela or the Californio bridle horse tradition. But I could be wrong!
I found Doma very interesting because there is no trotting!
So many interesting and unique sub-traditions in all of these areas.
As others have stated, the pictures you posted are of Nuno doing high level movements where the horse is in self carriage and during those movements does not need the âcontactâ between the bit and the hand. He doesnât start green horses out like that, and in several other pictures he can be seen taking contact. Contact is a part of dressage. No contact at certain moments can still be dressage, but contact is a very big part of dressage. There is, as has been pointed out, a big difference between the "high schoolâ which is what Nuno is doing and modern dressage.
There has been some attempts at trying to get bitless bridles allowed in dressage competition. Iâve ridden in them, and I really just donât get the same feeling. It seems they either lean into your hands heavily or hold themselves in a frame/pose. I also have been watching this trainer who started a filly entirely at liberty (no halter, ropes, saddles, bridle, nothing) using clicker training. Horse has been doing reining demonstrations in front of crowds, never had a bridle on. Theyâve started doing some âdressageâ movements too, but you can tell itâs just tricks in a false frame, sheâs posing but thereâs no real throughness. Still extremely impressive, but without the contact it just doesnât get the same results.
And in FEI dressage, the contact with the curb rein is so rarely light!
I totally understand all of that. Not a newbie to any of the concepts. You said ânot dressageâ and it clearly is, which I posted as a tongue in cheek statement based on your very black and white stance.
Some folks have been really great on this thread and Iâve enjoyed unpacking history and bouncing around thoughts with them. I thank them wholeheartedly.
I donât think bitless bridles are at all the equivalent of the bosal (when properly used). A sidepull is a crude tool, and the crossunder concept is justâŠwrong. There is no release in that.
To come back to this - I have the same problem with western dressage. They are requiring contact with two hands not only in a curb but in the 2 rein. Highly incorrect, no matter the school!
Is it the glittery guy with the palomino? it is a nice ride, but I agree. Not through. Have you watched some of the Spanish folks in the cavesson? They accomplish throughness but not always relaxation. Iâll have to find some videos.
It is said that a cutting horse and a dressage horse are very close in training.
At an event I went to watch there was a chestnut quarter horse in the Grand Prix. The Announcer said the combination had won in the Western Championships the weekend prior.
They did a par de deux (sp?) With a paint horse. It was fantastic. They started with extended canter and a sliding stop on the quarter lines, then it was like Cowboy chase Indian. The Indian doing a piaffe with the cowboy in two time tempis in a circle around them. Thing like that.
There are 2 types of thought in dressage.
Ask for something and if you get what you want stay quiet as a reward.
Have a constant communication with the horse.
I have learned both ways.
I was a complete beginner at age 15 on a horse that was used to muster cattle when they had an extra man. He was totally conformationally incorrect with a 6ft neck. I loved him as the best horse in the world.
We went from coming last in everything to going to an instructor who you donât know is no good and teaching you incorrectly. She had Pepper doing the Spanish Walk and we went from coming last to coming 5th in everything = white ribbons.
One day a different instructor was ĂŹn her place. Our prior instructor had put too much pressure on a green horse and it had gone over backwards and she had broken her leg.
One lesson from the new instructor and NO ONE went back to the previous instructor. Mum and I had lessons together. Mum had been riding for 40 years. We learned so much from her. We went from coming 5th to coming 3rd in everything. They changed the colour system so more white ribbons!
Under her I learned to speak horse. I realised that Pepper was doing the Spanish walk out of anger. He never did the Spanish Walk again.
I became a Pony Club Instructor, she encouraged me to go for my Equestrian Australia Level I Certificate. She taught the if they are good leave them alone method. The last year under her, Pepper and I won every competition we entered, Dressage, Show Jumping, Eventing, Hunter Trials, Combined Training and the Pony Club Gymkhana. He won the Official One Day Event at our Club by 66 points. I bought him for $100.00. He was competing against horses bought for $5,000.00.
After that I had a company horse. I talk about what he was like before I bought him in the taking martingale off thread. He was ridden in a twisted wire bit and she pulled the right rein until the horse looks at her and punched them in the head. He spun 360°, the first time I rode him by myself because I went to say Good Boy and pat him on the neck. He refused even poles on the ground.
I trained him with my seat. After getting him over a pole he never refused again. He was perfect for Jumping Equitation as he never pulled.
We had to swap horses in the Exam, I asked the candidate getting on Aztec to not get on with spurs. I have never ridden in spurs. She did get on with spurs. Aztec said. Well you are going to kick are you? Well kick a bit harder then. He hollowed and went above the bit. Her horse rounded for me and went back to hollow for her. She failed because if a student asks you to not wear spurs then you should not wear spurs.
I used to ride for 6 to 7 hours a day.
I asked to buy Aztec but the old you have to pay what he is now worth. They were paying me $75.00 a week and wanted me to pay $5,000.00. Nope not going to happen.
I left and went to work as a Level I under a Level III in Classical Dressage.
I had never ridden a trained horse.
I could not ride.
I could not ask for a trot canter transition. Walk canter yes. Trot canter, they just ran on in trot.
I was told my hands were dead, my legs were dead and I was not using my seat. So much for thinking I had trained Aztec with my seat.
I used to lie in bed in a caravan and cry. I could not ride.
I tried to remember my achievements and told myself I could ride.
I bought a brood mare who had received over 50% in a medium test. Back then 50% equals 75% nowadays. She was out of work and covered in holes from insect bites.
I would be in trot, she would walk. I would be in canter she would trot. I would be told I am not using my seat. Sigh.
I did not put on spurs. I did not pick up a whip. I physically stroked her on her neck and said thank you Girl for telling me I am not using my seat I will try again.
Every.single.day for 29 days. On Day 30 she stayed in trot and canter. On Day 30 magic happened. On Day 30 I could ride any of their horses, oh my goodness the magic that happened at home with the horses I had ridden before. It was glorious,
It is very hard to say how much weight in a bridle. I can tell you it does not feel like much because the horse is submitting to the bit and you have a connection, however going home on Pepper, we walked past A, I picked up the reins and he immediately went backwards to the first corner. I didnât work out what had happened, so stupidly I did the same thing and the same thing happened. I had to gingerly pick up the reins. Personally I did not know I was picking up the reins any differently to before. Pepper told me I was.
In the end I was riding 8 dressage horses a day. My hands, legs and seat were getting better. The last lesson I had there on Vinnie was I had to go large in canter half pass, go large in trot, turn at B and halt at x with holding the buckle of the rein and keep her correctly bent and flexed with my seat.
I did it. I cannot tell you how glorious that half pass was, she just floated across, the trot was sublime, the halt was square, however I lost her before the 4 seconds was up and she put her head up and looked around.
That was the day before the girl who worked there arrived to find the stallion out. She couldnât catch him SO TOOK HER MARE OUT OF HER YARD TO PLAIT HER. The stallion mounted her at the gate. They beat him off with sticks which is when I arrived. I caught him, he was agitated. I overused my arm and lost my job and my career.
I went home. Then because I had taught Aztec lateral work and did not buy him, he went back to looking like he did before I had him. All the Level Iâs asked what was wrong with Aztec. I went to find him and I sadly stroked his nose and listened to his rider complain about him and how he pulls in showjumping.
After that they put someone on him who was not a balanced rider. One leg was on more than the other. He fell off,with his rider, going over the bridge and broke his neck. But I digress. Sorry.
I also HATE the shakey rope and turn and face. I had a Parelli person help with my colt (only about 4 sessions) to prepare him for in hand showing and it took me so long to undo that halt and face. I want my horse to halt, not halt and turn. The problem with the shakey rope is that they donât start with it at a low volume (like a little jiggle)âthey immediately go a mach 1 rope shakeâand that makes the horse throw itâs head up or really react, instead of just refocusing. I just do normal groundwork with mine: lots of walking and halting, moving shoulders and moving haunches, flexing, backing up, learning word cues, lunging and ground driving. At all times, I want my horse to be RELAXED. So I donât punish if they are acting up. I either repeat (ignore the bad behavior and lavishly praise the good) or go to something else that is maybe easier or that the horse likes better, or that is slower and closer to me so that I can control it, and get them to move their feet.
That sounds very sad for Aztec.
When my first horse was purchased for me as a child, she came in a single twisted wire snaffle. Her neck was thick, and she had a habit of doing what she wanted to do. I was too small to do up a girth properly, and there was no way I could out pull her, so I rode her in a halter and lead rope bareback.
We jumped out in the fields, trail rode on the mountain behind my house, and she taught me quite a bit about horsemanship, as did the cowboy who bought her foal and boarded at my barn. I did take lessons from the hunter trainer whose barn was a short hack away, but she thought my mare wasnât fancy enough (she wasnât) and Iâm not sure she liked me. Thatâs fair, I was a 12 year old kid, most arenât super likeable.
Then I went to the UK where I learned more at a large academy. Because I was very well balanced, they did not put me in the beginner group. I went straight to eventing at novice. To me dressage was a bit overwhelming, as I had no idea of geometry. But I did know how to jump, so cross country and show jumping were fun. Dressage was the thing that we took lessons in the most but I didnât quite get it - most likely because I had âskipped a few gradesâ.
I was also sticky seated from the years of riding bareback, so they put me on the difficult horses - the ones who wouldnât walk but would jig. The ones who would bolt off or buck. I would ride there all the time when I wasnât in school. 3 hours a night and all day on weekends. Rode with the British Olympic Show Jumping team coach who came regularly to the yard. Worked at a breeding facility and broke babies there. Got my BHSAI.
Returned to the states, and the area I was in had only hunter/jumpers. Rode them for the next 25 years, breaking babies, teaching lessons, riding problem horses and clinicing with whomever I could get to come in. I rode with Alex Gerding and many other fine dressage clinicians. The horse I mention who was 4th in the country as a 4 year old (warmblood) was given to me, as he had learned the delightful trick of rearing then bucking to get people off. He never even tried it with me. But I had learned to settle a horse with my seat and to not demand that which they cannot give. He had brilliant gaits but was somewhat old style.
Then I decided to focus on dressage as my body was starting to tell me that jumping and breaking babies wasnât really wise any more, and I did so for a few years. Though I could do many things, I still didnât fully understand them.
Then I got my present horse who was a whole new adventure in learning. I didnât want to ride him at first as he was a young horse and I was out of shape after taking a break from riding for a year after a really bad accident. So I had trainers work with him. This was a mistake.
He was dismissed by the dressage trainers as not being submissive enough and too difficult. I went through 5 of them (2 were eventers, to be fair), all who had him rearing and bucking, before I finally gave up and rehabbed him myself. They couldnât even longe him or do in hand work without him rebelling. Riding him in company was out of the question as leaps through the air were regular. Such exuberance!
He is a fine horse today, but he did change some of my views on horsemanship. He is a very proud horse, and to be a bit woo woo (which Iâm perpetually allergic to) if he catches a whiff that you have any intention of forcing him do something or if he thinks you donât have a high opinion of him, you wonât have a good ride. On the flip side, he loves to work, and just requires a rider who is capable of convincing him that their idea is his idea.
He is tremendously light, balanced, forward, and agile. We have since then jumped, done dressage (yes, even with contact, albeit very highly negotiated contact) and are now focused on making him into a bridle horse and doing Doma & WE. He is an atypical breed for it but he is eating the work up with a spoon. He loves obstacle work in particular, and seems to really enjoy having a sense of utility. I donât blame him, I think most of us are proud of our jobs.
I still have a few other horses (most notably another two gift horses with issues - one who had learned to turn into a rock with pressure and another who had learned to drag people around in a gag bit - why I take these horses in is a mystery) but he is special. Our journey the last 5 years has not been easy, but it has been very informative. Iâve ridden close to 200 horses, owned about 30, and he is still teaching me on the regular.
I love to learn. I eat sleep and breathe horse. If I were younger and my body not broken Iâd go right back to being a working student. Unfortunately my years of riding difficult and green horses are catching up to me and thatâs not possible anymore.
My soliloquy is not necessarily about dressage per se and I donât hold dressage responsible (how could I, itâs a discipline) for my current horseâs history. But I have different thoughts now about the rider Iâd like to be and the role of the aids. I am much more cognizant of the horseâs role in shaping his own body, and I think Iâm much more respectful of his agency and intelligence.
Iâve always been an intellectual rider, but now I find myself delving deep into origins and theory. The history and development of systems and ideas about riding fascinate me.
And so that is the discussion I was truly aiming for here, though it veered off course as some didnât understand where I was going. Thatâs my fault as Iâm better with horses than I am with people.
Required, or allowed?
According to the folks that are riding in it on the page I follow, requiring contact in the curb, allowing two-handed.
Yes. Iâve been judging Western Dressage for a few years now. Had to learn all the rules as well as the tests. And yes, two hands on the reins and âlight contactâ with the curb are required. I. Donât. Get. It.
I am wondering if they feel that itâs more accessible that way? But it seems to me that it would promote âcheatingâ if you will. I havenât yet figured out the theory behind why they are requiring it. I have some conjectures but they arenât super generous.
I wonder if they put this in so people donât try to ride with heavy contact in a curb.
You can ride a horse with what looks like a fairly taut rein to a judge but actually have no real contact.
Here is a video of a Western and dressage rider. They switch horses about halfway ~4 minute mark.
Thatâs a thought. I have wondered if it was to try to keep the pleasure people out with their big drapes in the rein. Or to try to give it some measure of credibility by doing so?
Interesting video. The cowboy seemed to have an easier time riding the dressage horse than the dressage rider did with the reining horse. But it was certainly fun to watch them switch!
Iâm certainly not critiquing either rider or discipline - just an observation about the ride!
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