I use the word: Baaack…upspeaking. I raise my voice at the end of the word. Actually, i do rather move forward a tad while speaking the magic word. With no halter, no lead rope (so forsure no shaking it around!) just as subtle an energy and lean toward movement as i can muster, even (i suppose i should say especially) a wild mustang straight off the desert will easily comply. They are so adept at reading. edit: oh, and i look at their chest.
I try, always try, to put myself in a horse’s point of view. What, if i were this horse, would I best respond to? What would work on me? Unfortunately, it’s often: ‘what would confuse me?’ when i’m learning to teach something i’ve not taught before. As i go forward with my mustangs, i’ve learned how to better my communication with my domestics. They …are more ‘dumb’ or have their edges rounded. Volume needs to be raised a little (just a little!) bit. But it’s working well. Heck, just yesterday… Walking back home from a farr-away back pasture in the morning, my domestic herd came up the hill to meet me as soon as they saw me on the crest and escorted me back. I was at the center of the spear, Brenna on my left and Colton on the right, everyone else flanking them. All close. we walked down the hill together, sort of a packed bunch…across the field, then through the open gate, and single file, (me first) across the creek and into their barnyard. Where i left them gathered about. ALL the while, the four new Mustangs observed. Hopefully, they’ll inculcate what they saw.
mantra: a horse convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
I’ve only used the extreme shakey thing when I have one who is disrespectful of my space. I won’t use it to teach the initial back, but let’s say I have one who would prefer to be a backpack than respect my bubble? You bet your butt they learn the shakey rope thing. I’ve never had the high head persist, but I think that might be because I don’t overdrill it.
Groundwork styles are interesting. I use a combo of things I’ve learned through the years. What I find most important is that the work is done, not necessarily the exact method.
No horse “soft in the face” should refuse contact.
EVERYTHING done on the ground translates to undersaddle work. It all teaches the horse to “learn how to learn” and pay attention to the person. For example, the “wiggly rope” that @Mersidoats explained was used on horses just learning what it means, who cares if the head is high at that point. The head might be high because the horse is blowing off the handler. When my horse is freaked out about where his pasture adjacent buddy is when he’s in the wash stall, I wiggle the lead rope often hard to say “HEY, pay attention to ME!” He has been well trained in this over the years and knows the exercise well enough that it can calm him down. If it doesn’t, I’m insisting he pay attention to me and not run me over (which he will try if he’s freaked out). I don’t give a crap where his head is-he has to back the hell up out of my space. When he is calm and I reinforce this, his head doesn’t go up. He instead licks and chews because he’s participating in the exercise with me.
Same thing under saddle. He doesn’t get to look outside the arena and spook violently at things. He has to pay attention TO ME. Groundwork reinforces this and teaches this.
If your horse is still putting his head in the air if he’s calm, you are doing the exercise wrong or reinforcing the wrong behavior.
My barn has Remount Horsemanship as a trainer. Yes, he’s western and a Parelli-style, vaquero guy who has made his own way in training. He pivots when teaching turns on the haunches because that is the post efficient way for horses to work cows. I don’t teach that pivot because the horse is penalized for pivoting. So, just don’t teach it.
I’ve been in this barn for clost to 10 years and I sent Sir SpooksAlot to him when he gained a bad reputation and no dressage rider would ride him. Richard trains with with a well known USDF founder and trainer in the area so he has dressage creds. He eventually rode Sir SpooksAlot with her and another area GP-level trainer. To put it in basic terms, the groundwork he put on my horse taught my horse, who was started by a GP-level trainer, to learn how to learn on his terms. He was afraid of the world and dangerous. All of that groundwork taught him to yield from pressure, pay attention to the human interacting with him and most importantly, how to learn how to solve problems on his own. I always joke that his “Hellen Keller” moment was when he learned to put his foot on a cone when directed at the end of a 6-8 foot lead rope. Sure, he’s not in the handler’s space, but he’s following the handler’s cues and pressure/lack of pressure. When he figured that out, he learned to learn what was being taught. I used to bring a cone to shows to use as a “grounding device” when he was high as a kite, and we do this now as a reward after a ride because he associates providing the right answer as a reward.
And dressage under saddle is all about teaching your horse to happily work to figure out what you are asking for. Not explode because s/he doesn’t understand. And for you to say “Good try but no…good try but not that…GOOD TRY and that is the right answer so here is your reward for doing that!”
Remount currently has three high dollar dressage horses in for starting. He starts them all with groundwork to come to a common language that translates to under saddle work. He helped a dressage trainer with her super-fractious stallion (I saw) who is now a gelding and she sent him to R and our barn. This horse has gone on to win and place in major east coast young horse competitions.
If you really don’t understand how groundwork translates to riding, contact Remount Horsemanship. Everything translates too under-saddle work if you are doing it correctly and moving towards a goal.
Had a giggle at this thread after I just got done shaking the shit out of a lead rope with my new horse. She has not been handled much and other people’s ideas of safe on the ground are different from mine.
Do I care that her head is up in the air while I shake the lead rope at her? I kind of care more about being mowed over because she was more concerned about getting to her friends and less about my existence and while I am displeased that I have to use such strong reactions I think that in a month she’ll be a better, safer horse for it who is secure in her space because she respects my leadership and it lets her relax.
I did have to go hug my mustang, it was enlightening to see how far he’s come compared to the new horse and I think he was having a good laugh as he remembered learning the same lessons the hard way as well.
I will elaborate a bit on why I want them at the end of a lead rope. Because my personal space bubble is as big as I want it, and the more I am worried about being flattened the bigger my bubble gets.
When I gain the ability to “send” a horse to the end of the lead rope and he stays there, focused on me, respectful of me, then that is when he is safe right next to me.
If you think about it, how do you teach a horse to lunge? By sending him to the end of a really long rope
Good point. I’ve taught my horse to longe and then longue without a halter in the arena based on voice commends. I do this to this day. And lead with my hand o the withers just slightly behind the drive line. At least he can now be caught and led without a halter or rope. Because he understands it all.
If a horse is anxious about me or timid, we don’t go to the end of the lead rope quite the same way as one who is, shall we say, less than cognizant that it is not a good idea to run me over.
I didn’t do that type of thing much with the babies I broke, because they already learned not to smush me. But I’ve had a few older horses need that reminder big time.
I’ve also used that with pushy, antsy horses who need to just chill. Stand at the end of the rope and fall asleep please.
Whatever pressure keeps you safe.
Funny when i was a kid my trainer was big into parelli and i watched her get knocked down and ran over at gates. Like she only wiggled that thing in the arena and not when it was needed.
You know a gentle little wiggle on a trsined horse might mean hey, i forgot my helmet in the tack room and you need to stand here on this 10 ft line while i grab it.
Have you ever trained a rank unhandled 3 year old appaloosa gelding with no manners? Shake the hell out of that rope and hope he doesnt try to run you over.
Groundwork is a funny thing. It has many flavors like dressage.
Gates and stall doors are my least favorite places to be with very green or unhandled horses. Even trained horses don’t really know how to walk through a gate one step at a time. Narrow places can cause anxiety. One of the hardest things to do is to get a horse to stop in the middle of the gate or stall door and stay relaxed.
My groundwork guy and I spent hours with my goofy- but-anxious gelding working on walking calmly behind me, stopping and waiting behind my while I unlatched the gate, staying out while I opened the gate, walking calmly through the gate, waiting behind me while I closed and latched the gate, and then standing and dropping his head to remove the halter. This has translated magnificently to lateral work - take one step at a time in the way I want and wait for me.
YESSSSSSSSS!!! I know more people ran over at gates than anywhere else.
Horses get anxious about going out with their friends or coming in for dinner and bolt through gates. They spin and run when you unsnap the lead rope. Their herd mates attack them while they’re still attached. All my horses learn that when someone has a lead rope attached, you deal with ME, the horse attached to me is not fair game.
I also like using two halters or two lead ropes on a horse. When they spin and wheel to take off surprise!!! You will depart my personal space with respect.
So if she did parelli amd got ran over at gates, that means youre supposed to practice the squeeze game right?
So she would, but on a 10ft line with a csrrot stick amd the horse would run through barrel close to a round pen panel amd take off in fear. I do t thibk she understood the confort zones or that you dont get a willing horse by chasing them with fear.
I would teach that fearful horse if it walks through a tight space easy peasy cookie. And i would teach that shoulder heavy dominant horse thst if their shoulder comes into me it will hit a hoof pick and that surprise means stay out.
Amen to that. My own know the word “wait”. It means slow your ass down right now and think. I’ve been at too many barns where gates and doors are narrow and getting run over is no fun. I’ve handled boarded horses who never learned that bolting off when turned out is really bad manners. Not to mention dangerous. Those are the kind I wish would just go home to their owners and let them figure out how to deal with it.
As for the herd mates creating a problem, I’ve been know to carry a whip with me. You do NOT get to mug your buddy when the human is still attached!
good Western riders don’t want that at all. What they do want is a horse who doesn’t require any sort of bit contact to do the work asked of them. A properly trained horse who can work off a draped rein, and also go back to working properly in a snaffle.
Poor training ends up with horses behind bit just as easily as poor training from English riders. “On” or “behind” the bit has nothing to do with the contact, and everything to do with what the body is doing. A horse can have contact and be behind the bit, or no contact and be in front of the bit.
This means there is a big difference in the though process of who is starting the horse. It’s ENTIRELY possible for a Western rider to teach a horse to accept contact and not continue the work of training the no-contact method. There are plenty of “cowboy” trainers who start English horses with that end in mind.
I would agree with this. And in the process of the dressage-focused ground work, the safety aspect is also put into place.
Anyone who relies on a wild waggle of the rope has entirely missed the point of what the rope is for.
Yes this! The whole point of the rope wiggling is to reach a point where the horse says “OH, you want me to do something? Like maybe back up a step?”. It’s no different from pressing really hard with your finger into their side to get them to think “Oh, do you want me to move over?” You don’t STAY there, you progress to the lightest signal possible.
And if you get to a point where that rope has to be flying everywhere to get a horse out of your space, or even to move his feet at all, QUIT the instant he moves, verbally praise, and then give him a bit to process what happened. Depending on the situation, you might even walk up to him after a few seconds and rub his neck and praise him some more.
And yes, turning to face you after a halt is a huge problem for me. At some point I find it may have value if you are working to teach the horse that you are the focus of his world for the time you have together, but move past it. It should not be an end goal.
Anyone working on ground work for more than basic leading manners, needs to understand the end goal, which is where most fail. Western horses need to side pass. Can that be a valuable tool for an English horse? Sure. But in the process, don’t forget they also need to know how to move forward AND sideways.
Too many people get stuck on a particular “movement”, and drill it, not understanding it’s a means to an end, not an end unto itself. That’s what creates bad mannered horses because they are bored out of their mind, they are drilled to death, they figure out how to make games out of things and learn they can get away with it.
Or horses who came OT with apparently no real ground manners instilled I think I spent 2 weeks working with my OTTB mare on quietly walking into and out of her stall. She would BOLT out and BOLT in. I have no idea what the root cause of that was, but it didn’t matter. I was grateful to have 12’ lead ropes around, but if I hadn’t, a lunge line would have been fine.
Speaking of root causes - wayyyyyy to many people get so hung up on trying to tailor their actions to WHY the horse is doing something. In the end, it doesn’t matter, beyond determining “is he afraid, or does he just not understand”. Wayyyy too many people blame behaviors on past abuse, which likely never happened. It makes them dink around trying not to upset the horse and they never get anywhere. Sorry, tangent there LOL
I have taught my horses that they are to wait at open gates when I’m leading them in and out, until I say let’s go. Same with opening stall doors to send them through - you wait until I say go. This simple thing can prevent knocked down hips and run over handlers.
My mare had the rope violently wiggled once. I was at a ground work clinic with a trainer I basically respected. He said “that Paint mare is way too pushy,” which was absolutely true. He took the lead rope from me and sent her skittering backwards and handed it back to me. I never needed to do that again and her manners improved. Now we just back with a finger wave and voice if she’s in a complacent mood.
On the other hand when horses lose their mind over something it all goes out the window. You hope to expand the total number of things over which they do not lose their minds, but the world is unpredictable.
I think I spent 2 weeks working with my OTTB mare on quietly walking into and out of her stall. She would BOLT out and BOLT in. I have no idea what the root cause of that was, but it didn’t matter. I was grateful to have 12’ lead ropes around, but if I hadn’t, a lunge line would have been fine.