Groundwork styles

[sascha]

@Alterration

I’ve used this analogy before, and I like it, but when a horse is riding on signal the rein is the last aid to be applied, and if it requires the hand, they’ve often missed the other body aids.

We like to be able to compress and extend our horses’ necks to match their bodies. If they are used to that light hand hold, when we ask for a longer stride, we can encourage a matching stretch of the neck by moving our hands forward.

Furthermore, in dressage, the hand should be the last thing that comes into play after seat and legs and works in conjunction with those aids. It is not a punishment for missing the other aids - although it can be, even though it shouldn’t be.

@Alterration

in dressage, the hand helps to establish balance, and in the signal tradition (for lack of a better term) we seek to have the horse balance himself (though the use of exercises).

No. We use exercises to develop balance. Balance is not developed through/by the hand. Balance is established systematically by carefully increasing the amount of weight a horse can shift backwards, by the lateral work, by all manner of things. It’s not the job of the hands to establish balance.

[Alterration]

@sascha

@Alterration

I’ve used this analogy before, and I like it, but when a horse is riding on signal the rein is the last aid to be applied, and if it requires the hand, they’ve often missed the other body aids.

We like to be able to compress and extend our horses’ necks to match their bodies. If they are used to that light hand hold, when we ask for a longer stride, we can encourage a matching stretch of the neck by moving our hands forward.

Furthermore, in dressage, the hand should be the last thing that comes into play after seat and legs and works in conjunction with those aids. It is not a punishment for missing the other aids - although it can be, even though it shouldn’t be.

@Alterration

in dressage, the hand helps to establish balance, and in the signal tradition (for lack of a better term) we seek to have the horse balance himself (though the use of exercises).

No. We use exercises to develop balance. Balance is not developed through/by the hand. Balance is established systematically by carefully increasing the amount of weight a horse can shift backwards, by the lateral work, by all manner of things. It’s not the job of the hands to establish balance.

Thank you.

We also do this in signal-land (and I wouldn’t say it’s a punishment, just an explanation for a missed cue). When I move my hand forward, the horse should stretch forward, very similarly, perhaps not seeking the hand, but downward. With most stock horse types that’s where they naturally go when they feel relaxed. My saddlebred does this as well, but we spent a lot of time in signal-land working on the relaxation portion on the ground before we ever mounted up because he’s tense by nature.

When I shift my weight back, the horse should in turn shift his. Accomplished through body positioning similarly and strength from the exercises.

I just don’t have any weight in the reins.

And my apologies from the assumption that the contact can be quite heavy at times to assist in balance with a young horse - this is something that I know I have read more than once even on COTH. But perhaps those weren’t educated people explaining things.

The analogy in signal land might be that instead of constant guidance, there’s an occasional tap on the shoulder if a reminder is necessary. There’s a philosophy that the horse can be taught to hold his own body in balance without our assistance.

Perhaps that’s the main difference?

[Scribbler]

I’ve ridden Western and English. My horse as a kid ended up very light in Western and could do all kinds of things.

Dressage reaching to the bit, then overtime learning to lift and collect, then learning to do extensions in collection, is just an entirely different balance than a good Western horse.

I don’t know why horses seek the snaffle bit, but they do. I do know that horses seem to enjoy doing collection/lengthening and moving in that balanced way.

I also rode my first horse English. We could do some lateral work, and once we did three tempes at the canter. I bought a reprint of a cavalry manual and puzzled over The Indirect Rein of Opposition and other dressage mysteries. But I had no instruction and was never sure what contact would mean. One day I was riding home at a brisk walk and pony stretched to the bit and kept contact and I thought that might be it (I was right) but had no idea how to replicate that moment. I thought my horses neck was too thick to get her nose on the vertical, therefore she would never be “collected” but now I know all the sliding stops and rollbacks and pivots we did showed wonderful collection in a different context.

Anyhow, dressage and English riding is more forward in orientation than Western. When contact is working, it’s a mutually accepted connection. You don’t necessarily need or want the split second agility of a good working Western horse and you won’t get it from most warmbloods anyhow. You want a lot of impulsion for both dressage and jumping. For dressage the big test is the extended trot which is an entirely developed gait. Obviously horses approach it more or less at liberty but it is not something you get on a green horse. And it’s glorious. Even mediums are glorious. The horse lifts her back and skims over the ground just a bit faster than really seems safe or prudent. Likewise in jumping, when your coach says “now that’s a canter you can really do something with,” you are secretly feeling it’s a full out gallop and you’re about to slam into the arena wall and wipe out

In other words, English riding is more about harnessing impulsion to go in a straight line (or a circle) and the lateral movements in dressage are all about moving forward like shoulder in and half pass and even canter pirouette. Yes, you can open a gate on a dressage horse, and back up, etc. But we aren’t after the sudden stops and turns. I’m not sure that reining and dressage are compatible on the same horse. There might of course be the outlier that does both, but they aren’t compatible like jumping and dressage on the same horse that asks for a related kind of impulsion. Horses will likely be better at one than the other, but ideally in eventing they support each other and develop related skills.

Now in Iberian world, you do get Working Equitation that is a 3 phase of dressage, handy obstacle course slow and speed trials, and working cattle. That’s the closest I can think to blending what we call Western and English. But first, Iberian horses are very different from both WB and QH, think bullfighting horse. And second, even in the obstacle speed trials and cattle work, they are ridden more like dressage, more on the bit. They don’t do sliding stops, and certainly not on a loose rein, they do more what I think of as “pop stops.”

Anyhow, working equitation aside, both dressage and jumping are about moderating balance in a highly impulsive forward gait. When we are working correctly I use the reins to ask for balance and bend (whether lateral or vertical) and my seat)thighs for direction. My mare is a bit lazy but when I put the effort in to warm up correctly and do our collected/medium transitions it can come together in a wonderful way where riding her like that gives her impulsion and puffs her up. None of this came easy, and she will never have a huge extended trot. But when it’s working it’s about forward and when you are forward like that, you are not balanced to suddenly change direction. Canter pirouette comes out of a collected canter and a half pass, and you need to set the horse up for that in advance or it won’t happen (my mare isnt there, did this on schoolmaster a few years back). This is totally different from bombing down the football field at the high school, sitting down in the saddle and leaving ten foot skid marks in the turf, then rolling around to bomb back to some bemused or intimidated boys. So while Western is about signal, English is more about moderating balance in forward. You see this also in jumpers where the rider is balancing the horse between jumps, collecting then letting the horse carry himself to the fence. In jumpers you can ideally moderate a horse to make a given distance between poles in say 4 5 or 6 strides. It’s a controlled canter that goes between collected and almost hand gallop, but always balanced and somewhat upright. Like dressage, where extended trot is basically taking the body position of collected trot and adding impulsion. Collect on the short side, wheeee!!! down the long side while keeping the same balance.

Because you need so much real forward impulsion to do these things, the horse is not expected to be listening for a cue to change direction or halt in the middle of the exercise. You down shift gradually. You want the horse thinking forward ahead and you use that to modulate his balance. They know that contact doesn’t mean halt in your tracks in the middle of a jump course or dressage session.

[SuzieQNutter]

There is a difference between a young horse ridden by a beginner and a young horse by an advanced rider.

An advanced rider never pulls on the rein and does not with a young horse. You don’t ride the Grand Prix horse one way and a lower trained horse another way.

It is not as intense, as lower work is being asked for, however the young horse is not taught to, lets say, be kicked and then later taught to go without being kicked. The basics are the same. Horses learn fast. They can pick it up in hours or days, especially if they have the correct muscles from ground driving and lunging before being backed.

Ingrid Klimke lunges her young horses every second day as it teaches them to find their own tempo and rhythm and she rides better than most riders out there.

Riders do not learn fast and contact takes a looooong time to learn, to start with in riding schools you will hear riders being told to kick. Riders are taught one way and then taught another way as they advance. They go from school horses to higher trained horses and over here to their own horse.

School horses and owned horses are two different kettles of fish.

To learn how to use the reins is to learn how not to use the reins.

Yes contact is there as communication, no it is not pulling, you can never allow the horse to hit the bit. The horse needs the confidence to go forward. Proving the inside rein is a reward. This does not need to be visible to others, it is between you and the horse.

No the rein is not used to turn a horse or to make downward transitions. Not in the way a true trail ride horse is turned. As said above we can turn our horses with our bodies and the outside rein. A turn is a quarter of a circle, the outside aids make a circle smaller. We can do a circle with the horse correctly bent and flexed with a loop in the inside rein.

We ALWAYS think, say and write, seat then legs then rein. It is never the reins first, even if it seems simultaneous at the time.

Inside leg is not nagging, it is always used into the outside rein. If you hear more outside rein or any direction, it means inside leg into outside rein then you want more outside rein, not just use outside rein.

If the horse is not in contact and you use the outside rein the horse will turn out. When the horse is in contact and you use the outside rein the horse will move in.

To do a canter walk transition you need to do it with your seat to go from canter to a forward marching walk, it will not be seamless if you try to do the same thing with reins alone.

[Alterration]

There’s a lot here to unpack, thank you for writing it!

I would argue that a good working western horse is quite forward in orientation. A bridle horse would do no good if it couldn’t move out and move out well. BUT I would say that I agree that dressage on contact, such as it were, likely developed from the nature of the types of horses being ridden. We see that with the differences between the French & German school. I believe that the German horses tended to be heavier and longer, and that the French were more of the anglo-arab types given the breeds available at the time.

Iberian work also tends to be almost halfway between signal & contact. You don’t start the horse in a snaffle, but instead in the cavesson. I would agree that the Iberian horse is a unique creature though, they are born in horizontal balance. The bridle horse was developed from the vaqueros who brought over the Iberian horse and adopted slightly different methods to account for the difference in cattle and range that were here. There are a variety of differences between who you talk to - some who do the snaffle first and do a lot of lateral flexion before putting them in the bosal, some who put them in the bosal first, and being slightly Spanish oriented the latter is the way I tend to go.

I don’t know much about reiners as a discipline, though I do find the pattern interesting, so I can’t speak much to that. Like everything, I think they’ve gone down a specialized path.

When I rode jumpers I didn’t want to feel like it was a full out gallop. I wanted to feel like I was a bouncing ball around the course. That the energy was directed upward. I’m not sure that I needed my hands much to do so. My shoulders were always directional.

I want the same thing when I am riding my horse. I don’t want him to be pokey. He can’t spin or follow a calf if he’s poking around doing nothing. Sure, I like having jog mode so that I don’t have to ride like that all the time, but for instance garrocha work requires a horse who can also canter forward but collected. You do want the energy there, and the body to be in a good horizontal and lateral balance.

It is an interesting discussion. Thank you for indulging me!

[SuzieQNutter]

Thank you @Mondo, I never thought of someone putting a leadrope on their shoulder and being decapitated that way.

I will also add to my comment to always fully open a gate before moving through it and close it after all the way through and always latch it or tie it in place.

If you have electrical tape always secure it tight. DO NOT open a gate and leave it on the ground. Take it back and secure it to the fence line.

I saw our electric tape fence down and when I went to reach for it, it moved away from me at a rate of speed. A hare had it caught around its leg. The tape was still attached to the fence. I had to try and hold that line and walk to the hare like a fish on a line. It was desperate to get away.

I managed to get to it and hold it down, the tape was knotted around the leg. You would not think it would be possible to do without fingers or why it was like that or how. It was not easy to remove. The hare hopped away fine. I fixed the fence

I saw a utube the other day of a deer in America with rope around its antlers in the same way, so it must be a thing. It was caught and held by the rope when found. They had to hold it down to cut the rope off with a knife. It ran away fine.

Sadly our neighbour had the fence gate open and the tape was on the ground near the gate post. One of their foals strangled itself there and did not walk away.

[Alterration]

@SuzieQNutter

There is a difference between a young horse ridden by a beginner and a young horse by an advanced rider.

An advanced rider never pulls on the rein and does not with a young horse. You don’t ride the Grand Prix horse one way and a lower trained horse another way.

It is not as intense, as lower work is being asked for, however the young horse is not taught to, lets say, be kicked and then later taught to go without being kicked. The basics are the same. Horses learn fast. They can pick it up in hours or days, especially if they have the correct muscles from ground driving and lunging before being backed.

Ingrid Klimke lunges her young horses every second day as it teaches them to find their own tempo and rhythm and she rides better than most riders out there.

Riders do not learn fast and contact takes a looooong time to learn, to start with in riding schools you will hear riders being told to kick. Riders are taught one way and then taught another way as they advance. They go from school horses to higher trained horses and over here to their own horse.

School horses and owned horses are two different kettles of fish.

To learn how to use the reins is to learn how not to use the reins.

Yes contact is there as communication, no it is not pulling, you can never allow the horse to hit the bit. The horse needs the confidence to go forward. Proving the inside rein is a reward. This does not need to be visible to others, it is between you and the horse.

No the rein is not used to turn a horse or to make downward transitions. Not in the way a true trail ride horse is turned. As said above we can turn our horses with our bodies and the outside rein. A turn is a quarter of a circle, the outside aids make a circle smaller. We can do a circle with the horse correctly bent and flexed with a loop in the inside rein.

We ALWAYS think, say and write, seat then legs then rein. It is never the reins first, even if it seems simultaneous at the time.

Inside leg is not nagging, it is always used into the outside rein. If you hear more outside rein or any direction, it means inside rein into outside rein then you want more outside rein, not just use outside rein.

If the horse is not in contact and you use the outside rein the horse will turn out. When the horse is in contact and you use the outside rein the horse will move in.

To do a canter walk transition you need to do it with your seat to go from canter to a forward marching walk, it will not be seamless if you try to do the same thing with reins alone.

Thank you Susie. Yes, I understand all of these things with the exception of the “more outside rein means inside rein to outside rein” unless you actually meant “more inside leg to outside rein” in which case I do understand and I hope I didn’t imply reins first in anything I’ve said.

I don’t turn my horses via the reins in any way shape or form. The whole idea of signal is to not do that. That the horse understands where they are to go based on the configuration of your body on top of them. Typically I “steer” with my weight and shoulder orientation. The horses learn this through exercises on the ground and in the tack. We do a lot of steering with no reins.

I look left and it naturally configures my body in such a way that my horse goes left - this also will move my legs and weight so that he heads to the left. If I want the horse to look straight and leg yield left, I keep my shoulders straight, and my eyes straight, and I put my right leg on, and he goes left. If I want to do shoulder in, I’ll put my shoulders like I want his shoulders, but be conscious of keeping my hips and legs more straight although I will provide support with the leg to move the hindquarter. I might touch his mouth if he forgets that his shoulders need to follow mine, but in doing other work he has learned to follow my shoulders - yes, it’s my seat that he feels, but it’s easier to think about aligning his shoulders with mine, so that’s what we do.

If I want his shoulder to lift in order to - say - canter off nicely to the right, I will shift my weight back and lift my hand, which lifts MY shoulder and shifts my weight back to my outside hip, and it is that cue that they learn and understand, not necessarily any support from the reins.

To your point, I feel very sorry for most school horses. But that’s neither here nor there. I don’t think that riders should be taught to kick and pull and then change tactics. We’re doing humans (and horses) a disservice to teach that way, IMO.

[Alterration]

@Scribbler

Like dressage, where extended trot is basically taking the body position of collected trot and adding impulsion. Collect on the short side, wheeee!!! down the long side while keeping the same balance.

Oh! And I missed this - no matter the discipline, I’m SO glad to see this joy. I find this too, just…differently!

[SuzieQNutter]

@Alterration

@SuzieQNutter

There is a difference between a young horse ridden by a beginner and a young horse by an advanced rider.

An advanced rider never pulls on the rein and does not with a young horse. You don’t ride the Grand Prix horse one way and a lower trained horse another way.

It is not as intense, as lower work is being asked for, however the young horse is not taught to, lets say, be kicked and then later taught to go without being kicked. The basics are the same. Horses learn fast. They can pick it up in hours or days, especially if they have the correct muscles from ground driving and lunging before being backed.

Ingrid Klimke lunges her young horses every second day as it teaches them to find their own tempo and rhythm and she rides better than most riders out there.

Riders do not learn fast and contact takes a looooong time to learn, to start with in riding schools you will hear riders being told to kick. Riders are taught one way and then taught another way as they advance. They go from school horses to higher trained horses and over here to their own horse.

School horses and owned horses are two different kettles of fish.

To learn how to use the reins is to learn how not to use the reins.

Yes contact is there as communication, no it is not pulling, you can never allow the horse to hit the bit. The horse needs the confidence to go forward. Proving the inside rein is a reward. This does not need to be visible to others, it is between you and the horse.

No the rein is not used to turn a horse or to make downward transitions. Not in the way a true trail ride horse is turned. As said above we can turn our horses with our bodies and the outside rein. A turn is a quarter of a circle, the outside aids make a circle smaller. We can do a circle with the horse correctly bent and flexed with a loop in the inside rein.

We ALWAYS think, say and write, seat then legs then rein. It is never the reins first, even if it seems simultaneous at the time.

Inside leg is not nagging, it is always used into the outside rein. If you hear more outside rein or any direction, it means inside rein into outside rein then you want more outside rein, not just use outside rein.

If the horse is not in contact and you use the outside rein the horse will turn out. When the horse is in contact and you use the outside rein the horse will move in.

To do a canter walk transition you need to do it with your seat to go from canter to a forward marching walk, it will not be seamless if you try to do the same thing with reins alone.

Thank you Susie. Yes, I understand all of these things with the exception of the “more outside rein means inside rein to outside rein” unless you actually meant “more inside leg to outside rein” in which case I do understand and I hope I didn’t imply reins first in anything I’ve said.

I don’t turn my horses via the reins in any way shape or form. The whole idea of signal is to not do that. That the horse understands where they are to go based on the configuration of your body on top of them. Typically I “steer” with my weight and shoulder orientation. The horses learn this through exercises on the ground and in the tack. We do a lot of steering with no reins.

I look left and it naturally configures my body in such a way that my horse goes left - this also will move my legs and weight so that he heads to the left. If I want the horse to look straight and leg yield left, I keep my shoulders straight, and my eyes straight, and I put my right leg on, and he goes left. If I want to do shoulder in, I’ll put my shoulders like I want his shoulders, but be conscious of keeping my hips and legs more straight although I will provide support with the leg to move the hindquarter. I might touch his mouth if he forgets that his shoulders need to follow mine, but in doing other work he has learned to follow my shoulders - yes, it’s my seat that he feels, but it’s easier to think about aligning his shoulders with mine, so that’s what we do.

If I want his shoulder to lift in order to - say - canter off nicely to the right, I will shift my weight back and lift my hand, which lifts MY shoulder and shifts my weight back to my outside hip, and it is that cue that they learn and understand, not necessarily any support from the reins.

To your point, I feel very sorry for most school horses. But that’s neither here nor there. I don’t think that riders should be taught to kick and pull and then change tactics. We’re doing humans (and horses) a disservice to teach that way, IMO.

LOL I did go back and edit inside to outside in a few cases, but I obviously missed one. Thanks I will go back and re-edit. Doh!

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes it is the way it is for school horses teaching beginners, but it is the way it is because of how people learn. If you put a man on a horse and give him a rein the first thing he will do is pull it.

The best way of course and what I did with my husband is I but him on the lunge and the reins were attached to the lunging cavesson, not the bit, alas that does not happen in most riding schools.

People have to learn how to sit, how to go in rising trot and how to canter. They need a horse that will not react when they bounce or do anything out of balance. That same horse has to have different riders and becomes not react. So this kind of horse is duller than an owned horse and you need more aides to get it to go forward and stop.

It is not a bad thing, it is just that that rider does not realise there is a difference if they suddenly go to buy there own horse, which has been taught to go with lightest aides possible. They look the same in the paddock.

[Alterration]

@SuzieQNutter

It is not a bad thing, it is just that that rider does not realise there is a difference if they suddenly go to buy there own horse, which has been taught to go with lightest aides possible. They look the same in the paddock

When I taught, a billion years ago, I also started people on the longe. But they were never instructed to kick to go and pull to stop. I didn’t even teach children that. My lesson horses were tolerant of beginner foibles but I’m not sure that it does people a service to teach them things they then have to unlearn.

[SuzieQNutter]

I heard years ago that Germany buys the Grand Prix horses and they are used in lessons. We can only dream about that. Sigh.

[colorfan]

@quietann

Except… well, very few dressage riders I know ever ride outside an arena. “My horse is too valuable…” I can’t tell you how many times I have heard that.

I actually don’t know any who don’t ride out. But then we are all lower level.

[enjoytheride]

I will never understand how people who don’t like dressage come onto a forum and say “explain dressage to me” then continue to argue that it’s still wrong.

If you don’t believe in taking contact then don’t.

[colorfan]

The way contact ws explained to me was to think of hand holding. That is contact, a tighter clasp would get uncomfortable very quickly, someone with an unsteady hold, tighter then looser would also get annoying.
Now imagine if you will, a secret language where a finger press here meant something, a series of finger presses meant something else, a quick press versus long press versus a quick and long…I’m sure you get the idea.
To effectively transmit those presses you need a light constant connection, think how clumsy it would be if you had to first make connection then do the finger press, how much more efficient and smooth if there is already connection and your finger can lightly press-release.
So it is with the bit, connection, then a finger can pulse the rein and a signal is transmitted. The finger relaxes (pressure is released) the connection is not troublesome because it is smooth, constant, elastic. Like a nice comfortable handholding would be.

[colorfan]

@Alterration

Trying to understand it because it’s SO different than everything else we do with a horse.

When I girth up the horse that pressure stays there!

A rider’s legs make ‘contact’ the entire time they are on the horse. Just a thought.

[Alterration]

Im not arguing in the least. If that’s what you have taken from my attempts to understand then I’m very sorry. Mapping is a very difficult construct. I welcome you to try it with mine. It is likely you would struggle similarly.

I also never said I didn’t like dressage. I love watching dressage. It’s actually a very similar discipline, like a cousin - except for this one concept that I have struggled to truly understand.

I guess this must not be dressage, since there is no contact: https://images.app.goo.gl/YmqPhB4JAk86KWKv8

[Alterration]

Thank you.

I think the telephone line analogy works well here. If I can mix that with Scribbler’s explanation of the types of horses & forwardness, it seems that the function is to help communicate quickly to these larger, longer and more forward horses, and help them to balance themselves.

I think it makes good sense that the maker of a bridle horse does not desire to train that way because riding all day on contact would be difficult for both horse and rider, much less over varied terrain. The horses themselves need to be balanced and able to be collected without the help of the rider since the rider is busy doing other things, particularly with their hands.

This has all been very useful! Thanks!

[Alterration]

For others reading, I also found this article:

Classical Training: How Much Weight Should We Have in the Reins?

This was very useful, although I would argue that mere mortals are capable of learning ways to engage and collect their horses with less contact. 4-8 lbs of pressure is quite a bit on a snaffle.

[sascha]

@Alterration

The analogy in signal land might be that instead of constant guidance, there’s an occasional tap on the shoulder if a reminder is necessary.

Me, as a human responding to a tap on the shoulder, “if you’d like to remain un-maimed, do not ever do that again. Ever.”

I don’t even need to use my words to express that, my physical reaction and the daggers flying from my eyes are enough.

Apparently if I were a horse I would be firmly in the dressage/hand-hold camp and not in “signal land.” The bloodlines check - all euro on both dam and sire sides