GSD questions: health and temperament

[twelvegates]

I am looking at GSD breeders with the intention of obtaining a puppy. I’ve had two shepherds–the first lived 12.5 years and the second, 10.4 years. First was from a BYB, but I was able to see both parents and living conditions and felt good about the health of the puppies. Second was from a small breeder who prided herself on hips, elbows and temperaments (did “puppy testing”). Both dogs were good fits for us, very sociable, biddable, great companions, easy around other dogs, completely nonaggressive, loved to play. Not interested in a breeding animal, and will spay.

I’ve been doing more research this time, and I think I’ve pretty much overwhelmed myself. For instance, I understand that OFA ratings for passing hips can be excellent, good and fair. Does it matter when both parents have fair hips, rather than good or excellent hips? Elbow ratings always seem to be normal, then I find a breeder I like and she indicates the sire’s elbows did not pass because of DJD, thought to be due to a shoulder injury at 7 months. But both of this dog’s parents had normal elbows. I know I want to look for the degenerative myelopathy status of the parents, but have been told that as long as BOTH parents can’t pass on the gene, its OK if only one of them has the potential to pass on the gene. Is this correct?

Then I look at the lines available. There are the DDR dogs, which appear to be very healthy but probably way too much dog for me. There are the WGSL dogs, but I’m not sure about their sloped backs. The ASL dogs are purported to have great “family” temperaments, but are the most angulated. I also read that ASL dogs can be nervous. “Working” lines have been recommended (I assume police, herding, etc.), but I wonder if these dogs would also have extremely high drives.

I plan to meet some breeders, look at their dogs and ask questions, but I’d like to be able to have some frame of reference before I arrive.

Any guidance would be most appreciated.

[independentlyawesome]

I’d look at PennHip rather than OFA ratings, personally. I’ve read their rationale behind the different testing system and it makes a ton of sense. The main advantage is it yields a lot less false negatives.

Can’t help you much more with your hunt, though. Just a casual fan of PennHip here

Curious to hear the other thoughts on GSDs. I had a great conversation with a Schutzhund trainer a few months ago, and she felt that for her goals she needed to import from Germany. Those aren’t the same goals as someone just wanting a family pet, though.

[twelvegates]

I assume the breeder has to choose to do the PennHip testing rather than the OFA testing?

[scruffy_the_cat]

Keep in mind that “meeting both parents” is often a red flag as it means the breeder is not seeking out the best stud for their bitch, instead taking the easier/cheaper way out of just producing multiple litters at home. It’s a profit move usually. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the breeding is going to be bad, but it’s a concern.

[beowulf]

I have a working line GSD. He’s been just the best dog. He is very driven (sometimes, even intense) but never hyper or uncontrollable. He just wants to do what you’re doing, go where you’re going, and help/supervise at all times.

I’ve had him for 9 years.

I think it just depends on what your lifestyle is. My livelihood is horses, and he fits in perfectly. It may be him, it may just be his working blood.

I would, personally, always go with a working line dog. They just, to me, are better built structurally, and more interested in working with you in my experience.

A caveat, I would also look into seeing if any testing has been done for either parents for endocrine pancreatic deficiency. It is something I’ve had to deal with and apparently now, is not that uncommon.

[twelvegates]

Thank you for the advice and thoughts.

I would be fine with a working dog I think. The ones we had were definitely of this ilk – figured out our schedules and EXPECTED US TO MAINTAIN THEM AT ALL TIMES! Herded us around if we didn’t feed the horses at the correct time, whined at us if we didn’t get up at the same time each morning, etc. They knew the names of each horse, so if we yelled at one for some transgression (chewing or rubbing on the fence), they would go right to that particular horse and bark at it.

Good thoughts about using the “on site” stud, though I really haven’t found any local breeders that don’t have a couple of stud dogs they use. But I’m sure I haven’t found all possible breeders yet.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=twelvegates;7481780]
Good thoughts about using the “on site” stud, though I really haven’t found any local breeders that don’t have a couple of stud dogs they use. But I’m sure I haven’t found all possible breeders yet.[/QUOTE]

How do you define “local”? It’s unlikely that there will be several great breeders of any breed within an hour or so of driving from anyone. My target area, should I be looking for a puppy of my own breed (Brittany), which is not rare in the northeast - would probably be within a 6-8 hour drive (aka not necessary to fly). I would not limit myself to a 2-3 hour drive for a puppy…this is an animal that will live in your house for the next 14 years. It’s worth a good look, and an overnight stay or two in a hotel if necessary.

As far as OFA ratings, I’d be more interested in the multi-generation lineage than “fair” v. “poor”. A “fair” rating is still a PASS as per OFA, and positioning could be the difference between good and fair. But, remember that any two “good” parents could produce dysplasia, and two dysplastic parents could produce a “good” puppy. So I’d be looking for a breeder that shows a history of “passes” - and don’t be afraid to check OFA yourself (www.offa.org I think) to see if there were any other offspring that did NOT pass with fair or better.

I can’t really comment on Penn Hip v. OFA - I’ve heard about false negatives/false positives in both directions. I think that what is most important is a history of acceptable hips regardless of the method of evaluation. (E.g. we hear stories about dogs that have 4 generations of OFA Pass and then suddenly instead of an OFA rating there is a PennHip evaluation. People gossip that is because the OFA would have failed, who knows. But, I’d want to see OFA if the parents and grandparents had been OFA’d, and PennHip if the parents had been PennHip’d. The trend, in my opinion would be more useful than the one independent evaluation. Just my opinion, of course.)

[twelvegates]

Thanks for your insights S1969.

By “local”, I’m considering ALL of Colorado as well as the closer parts of Wyoming, Nebraska and Kansas. I’m right on track with your thoughts about choosing the right dog and managing a couple of nights away from home to find it.

I only wish that GSDs lived 14 years, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

[alto]

[QUOTE=twelvegates;7481828]
I’m right on track with your thoughts about choosing the right dog and managing a couple of nights away from home to find it.

I only wish that GSDs lived 14 years, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.[/QUOTE]

Spend some time on the big GSD forums (there used to be a couple of main forums back when I was following GSD’s) - there are many small breeders producing 1 or 2 litters a year (or two, depending), many of these breeders seem to have the male & female as both would be “working” dogs before being bred (though perhaps that has changed over the years with AI becoming so much more common/accepted), then there are bigger kennel/bloodline breeders … both types of breeder can produce outstanding dogs, though the puppy experience tends to be rather different between the two, also degree of interest in following all puppies produced.
(there certainly were a few breeders that had 13 -14 yr old dogs still active & in good health - though obviously younger dogs were carrying on the lines)

Often there is a puppy section with loads of photos from private owners or breeders, so you can get a feel for who is producing what … lots of puppy-logs that followed along for a few years (including some real heartbreakers).

There should also be an active rescue section if you want to go that route (mostly these dogs come out of BYB situations but you can still find some lovely dogs).

Regardless of the health certs on the parent dogs, you should also be checking your pup & having the health testing done at suitable times.

As for the degenerative myelopathy, I’d prefer both parents to be negative - any heterozygous individuals being bred should be outstanding in other ways.

[twelvegates]

[QUOTE=alto;7481897]
Regardless of the health certs on the parent dogs, you should also be checking your pup & having the health testing done at suitable times.

As for the degenerative myelopathy, I’d prefer both parents to be negative - any heterozygous individuals being bred should be outstanding in other ways.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this input. When you indicate I should have health testing done at suitable times, are you indicating hip xrays or genetic testing or? Clearly, once I have the puppy, there would be no “going back” (which is why I always laugh at the health guarantees from breeders–nice sentiment, but unless one is choosing a breeding animal, if you really love the breed, I would think that returning a dog to a breeder is unlikely.)

It’s also tough for a novice, unaware of the influences of bloodlines, to make the decision that the DM positive parent is outstanding in other ways. All of the animals I have so far considered have championships or Sieger/Siegerin, Victor/Victrix, Champion/BOB/BOS designations, but I assume that there can be a lot of politics and “what’s in fashion” going on in these instances.

Some of the best advice I’ve seen is to ask the breeder about bloodlines, and if you start getting a headache two hours later, from all the information presented, you are on the right track!

[alto]

@twelvegates;7482129

Thank you for this input. When you indicate I should have health testing done at suitable times, are you indicating hip xrays or genetic testing or? Clearly, once I have the puppy, there would be no “going back” (which is why I always laugh at the health guarantees from breeders–nice sentiment, but unless one is choosing a breeding animal, if you really love the breed, I would think that returning a dog to a breeder is unlikely.)

Hip dysplasia can range from minor to severe & young dogs may not be clinically symptomatic, so I’d X-ray at intervals.
If a rescue of unknown DM status, I’d test as there is a good deal that can be done to delay severity of onset (not saying that well, but do read the articles).

Breeder guarantee tends to be an American concept & it’s usually taken as a sign of breeder faith in what they are producing - there were some long discussions back when, I suspect it may still be a discussion topic
You’re correct that few owners choose to return the pup/dog & most breeders won’t actually require dog be “returned” (despite what may be written on the paper - though in a few cases, breeder was willing to do surgeries etc that were beyond the means of the owners, so dogs did go back) but will offer a replacement pup (which again is not always accepted by the owner).

I wouldn’t choose a GSD based upon bloodlines, but from a breeder that I liked that was producing dogs that would suit my lifestyle/ambitions … I have no problems with looking at puppy photos/video & allowing the breeder to select the best match & meeting pup for the first time at the airport

It’s also tough for a novice, unaware of the influences of bloodlines, to make the decision that the DM positive parent is outstanding in other ways.

It’s a good question for the breeder though - not just DM but in regard to any of the health testing - it all really comes down to why did you choose this dog (to breed).

Familiarize yourself with both the PennHip & OFA ratings system, both systems have pros/cons (though again I’ve been out of the loop for years now, so perhaps PennHip has improved & is now the “blue ribbon” standard)

[Horsegal984]

PennHip is very quantatative. The dog must be anestatized while the films are taken. There are three separate views, designed to specifically measure hip laxity and the depth of socket. The measurements and percentiles are very specific, with variations between the breeds noted. (For example when a dog is said to be in the 80th percentile it’s for that breed, not compared to all dogs).

OFA doesn’t require anesthesia or sedation, which can allow the dogs natural muscling to make the hips seem tighter than they are. It’s also a very qualitative analysis, it’s three vets looking at the films and voting on a rating. The exact same films can be submitted later (for comparison sake) and receive totally different ratings.

I prefer PennHip for two very important reasons. I prefer numbers and quantative analysis over opinions. And I like that there is no way to avoid reporting. With PennHip once the films are taken they have to be submitted. Even if the vet and owner know they will fail. However with OFA there are tons of breeders who will take the films and never submit them for the official report if they know the dog will not pass.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=alto;7481897]

As for the degenerative myelopathy, I’d prefer both parents to be negative - any heterozygous individuals being bred should be outstanding in other ways.[/QUOTE]

As long as the heterozygous parent is bred to a clear, there shouldn’t be any issues. We’re working hard at being DM clear with our corgis; but if we used only the clear individuals, we’d lose more than 70% of our gene pool.

[alto]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;7482659]
As long as the heterozygous parent is bred to a clear, there shouldn’t be any issues. We’re working hard at being DM clear with our corgis; but if we used only the clear individuals, we’d lose more than 70% of our gene pool.[/QUOTE]

It’s always a trade off - that’s why many GSD’s are still bred with “fair” scores/heterozygous DM etc, also inheritance/expression in generally more complicated than basic Mendelian genetics … it’s rare for a single gene to determine a factor, most involve multiple foci with only dominant effects being “easily” determined.
In reference to DM, there are the homozygous positives that never develop/express any physical symptoms.

But having experienced the doginacart, given the choice between 2 litters that I liked equally, I’d select a pup with DM negative parents (though that is a personal bias).

Breeding is complicated, the eugenics trials tend to never work out quite as one would wish … it should always be about the whole dog & not any one factor - even DM status.

OFA doesn’t require anesthesia or sedation

maybe not, but none of the breeders I considered were doing films without sedation … most did films prior to sedation & then with sedation.

However with OFA there are tons of breeders who will take the films and never submit them for the official report if they know the dog will not pass.

This is a breeder issue, not an OFA issue.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

While I am not arguing that OFA is more accurate than PennHIP, I don’t believe that, I wouldn’t rule out an OFA breeder simply because they do OFA. Some people really don’t want to sedate their dogs. I know of dogs that did OFA without sedation, but if they had done PennHIP it was required. It is also hundreds more.

Also, I have read arguments that the pool size for PennHip isn’t large enough yet for the breed comparison (would love to hear comments on that).

My last pup (dobermand, not GSD) was from across the country. I never met either parent (one was in NY and one in NC), but I had talked to people who had seen them compete in IPO. The breeder had a pup in mind for me and based on our conversations, she (and I) changed our minds the last week, and I got a different pup than I initially thought. A bit more stable with strangers. He was exactly what I expected him to be based on our discussions. Great experience. You have to really trust the breeder though–I think a visit is always good.

GSDs are one of the most messed up breeds, so take your time. I saw a 4 month old show line pup someone paid 4k for the other day that was practically crippled behind. I just don’t get it. I would go working line and look for a really stable (not nervy or super hard) dog. Just my two cents. I have two friends with working line GSDs and both are great in the house. One is actually doing mondio (higher drive dog) and the other is a pet/AKC obedience (she asked the breeder for a “working dud” on purpose).

[Horsegal984]

I didn’t mean to imply it was an issue with OFA. However when looking at the OFA listings for breeders it is important to realize that not all dogs may be listed.

A truly good breeder will not take any if the shortcuts I mentioned, but it can muddy the waters a bit for people who are unaware that these things can happen.

[BarbaricYawp]

I’ve been on pretty much the same journey as you, OP, albeit for longer. My first GSD was an Amish puppy I bought straight from the farm. She was faulty all over and amazingly noble. I have no idea what her lines were – suspect German since she was a long-hair – but I loved her. My second was a American-lines puppy mill dog who arrived with an expensive case of parvo and later developed aggression against other dogs. She had to be rehomed to a ‘single dog’ household after she attacked and tried to kill my Jack Russell. Third dog was American show lines who developed severe hip dyplasia at age 2, although she lived for another 9 years because we stayed on top of her weight and medical care. She was the sweetest and stupidest GSD I have ever met. 4th was an unpapered rescue – too boisterous for his elderly owners and the first male GSD I ever owned. I think he might have been American lines, but couldn’t prove it. Great brain, non-sloping build. I adored him and cried for 3 days when we finally had to put him down at age 8 due to ankylosing spondylitis. I bought my current German-line GSD 5 years ago. She comes from generations of Schutzhund competitors, and her favorite thing is to snuggle on the sofa, followed closely by chasing flashlight beams (yes, like a cat). She is smart, sound, biddable and sweet and has had no health issues. I thought enough of her that I went back to her sires owner to ask for a breeding recommendation to breed ONE litter from her for myself and my friends/family. I chose as a sire a German line service dog with a good work ethic and a nice temperament. IMO you are better off with a working line dog, particularly one from a breeder that has put the effort into titling the dogs or having them breed surveyed (Korung). You will pay more for the puppy, but the brains and the conformation are built in as the breeders will not be spending money taking dogs that are not sound through this process. I was disappointed with my American lines dogs (although for very different reasons). The poor breeding manifested itself very quickly in both (within 2 years) in the form of health/mental issues.

Hope that’s helpful. I’m in Virginia but would be happy to share the name of the breeder if you want to PM me.

[IdahoRider]

After years and years of living with this breed, I finally decided that enough was enough and have decided to go in an entirely different direction with my next dog.

My male is almost 8 years old now. I bought him as a puppy from a highly recommended breeder. She did all the testing, competed nationally and said all the right things. But the reality was much different and my poor dog has had health and temperament issues that have hounded him his whole life. He is West German Showlines. I think that the WGSL breeders have focused so heavily on the black and red color that some things have fallen by the wayside. They do tend to have food allergies and their temperaments can be a little wonky (dog reactivity seems to be a common theme).

I think that great German Shepherd Dogs can be found in any of the three main lines: American Showlines, working lines and West German Showlines. The trick is to find a breeder that is doing it right. Find a breeder that knows their dogs and what they produce, and be very honest when you describe your lifestyle. And then let them match you to the right puppy. Find a breeder that produces dogs that fit what you want to live with.

I have two breeders that I feel comfortable recommending: Theis Hof here in Idaho:
www.theishof.com

and a veterinarian breeding in Southern California. You can PM me for her e-mail address (she does not have a website and I don’t feel comfortable publicly sharing her contact info) if you would like to chat with her.

This a wonderful breed. But I just can’t bring myself to take that leap again. We lost my older GSD to hermangiosarcoma in 2012 and that was such a horrible, horrible experience that I can’t bring myself to try again, considering how he died and the issues we have had with Tanner.

The “sloped back” issue can be misleading. A lot of people see photos of these dogs stacked and think the back “slopes” naturally. Some are more angled than others, but often the stack creates the illusion. And the “sloped back” has no correlation to health issues. Some of the most heavily angled American Showlines have excellent hips. And some of the straightest backs have horrible hips.

Here is a very active GSD forum:
www.germanshepherds.com/forum

Just like any forum, some members are a little more knowledgeable than others. But you can get some great information once you learn who to weed out!

Good luck, OP!
Sheilah

[alto]

@IdahoRider;7483045

Here is a very active GSD forum:
www.germanshepherds.com/forum

:yes:

[wendy]

the sloped back is caused by serious over-angulation of the hocks. It allows the dog to perform a beautiful extended trot, and not be able to do anything else. It’s poor conformation, and ruins the dog’s athleticism. Yes, it’s not correlated with hip dysplasia. I’d avoid any breeder who breeds sloping dogs like the plague. Actually, GSDs are so unhealthy these days that you are in for a lengthy search. I know so many GSD fans who have just given up on the breed. We looked at one point and were horrified and ended up adopting a mutt from the shelter instead.