"Guardian" or "Host" home for dog breeders. How many pregnancies are standard?

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Houndhill

I cant believe people fall for it.

Unfortunately, I can. If one isn’t super-knowledgable about pure-bred dogs (and many are not), the puppy mill breeder in disguise can make it sound very attractive to own a high quality dog of the breed the person is looking for at a reasonable or no cost for just allowing bitch to be bred. And that lovely word ‘Guardian’… who doesn’t want to be ‘guardian’ of their dog rather than an ‘owner’ or co-owner. Guardian sounds so much more touchy feeling for today’s society.

At least OP is asking which is good. Many won’t because they don’t know better or know where to ask or to know that this strategy should raise some red flags.

OP, I hope if you have additional questions, please feel free to ask. I think we all want to help you make the best choices possible for both you and your upcoming puppy

[S1969]

@Where'sMyWhite

This yes. Often the breeder will co-own the pup to “manage” any potential offspring from the now grown up puppy. Still can be bred but puppies can’t be registered, IIRC, without all co-owners signing. Many of my pups were co-owned by the breeder but really no ‘interference’ from the breeder.

Often the “pets” from good breeders are those that the breeder feels wouldn’t be competition suitable for their level of competition or desired breeding stock. Nothing really wrong with the puppy but just not what the breeder might have been looking for.

Unless it’s a rare breed, one with small litter sizes, or a very competitive breeding, breeders often sell pets out of show/performance litters.

My dog sired a litter of 12. Even with potential show homes lined up, that’s a lot of puppies. I got the pick of the litter, the pick bitch went somewhere else, and the breeder kept the 2nd pick male, but very likely any one of them could have been extremely competitive in the show ring. Nothing was wrong with any of them, but some were better at 8 weeks than others.

The following year the same bitch produced 13 puppies the next time she was bred. Most breeders do not have 13 show homes lined up unless they are going a long time between breedings.

Obviously all breeds are different - our is not known for litters 10+ but they are not uncommon. But I imagine breeds that tend to have 2-4 puppies will be much more difficult to obtain as pets.

[Where_sMyWhite]

S1969, I think you said what I was trying to say much better than I did

My older boy, don’t know much about his litter or parents (long story) as I got him at 18 months. He hadn’t found a home yet and not a conformation candidate as too small (and IMO, conformation and movement not the best). I love him to pieces and he’s found a home doing scent work which he loves.

My younger boy came from a litter of 13 :eek: (where did a Border Terrier put 13 puppies I’ll never know). Not sure who did more research… me on the parents and breeder or the breeder on me This boy was going to go to a conformation show home until his tail developed a crook in it so now he gets to do scent work with me

I don’t know where all the the other 12 puppies ended up (some I believe in the conformation ring) but I agree. Not every puppy from a reputable breeder will get shown in the conformation ring. Some “pets” do become pets because they didn’t mature as expected. Some are ‘pets’ as you said the breeder may not have show homes lined up for all of them. Just depends on the litter, breed and breeder Nothing wrong with purebred ‘pet’ puppies

[vxf111]

@Simkie

It is pretty brilliant to run a puppy mill this way, though. Other people house and care for the dogs, you still get, oh, what? 15-40 puppies out of each bitch. And since all the girls you “own” in this way won’t come into heat at the same time, it’s a lot harder to identify you as a hoarder/puppy mill because you don’t have them all on your property at the same time.

Yeah, what a great scheme. OP don’t fall for it

[ElisLove]

My breeder will co-own a bitch and take it back for litters, but that’s after it’s show career and it gets all it’s health clearances. 2-3 litters is the norm. 5 is a lot!

[emipou]

Co-ownership happens often with breeders, but this guardian program you speak of sounds kind of scammy to me.

My current dog I received from the breeder because she did not feel she had enough time to properly give her. She was a free dog with the option to breed and keep one puppy, or to show. We did breed (I reached out to her for this), but never showed. These were voluntary though. There was no contract. She gave me all the papers and her vaccine/vet history when we decided she would remain with us. These kind of interactions help the breeder, as others have stated with allowing them to focus on stock they can use and I see nothing wrong with it.

[S1969]

@emipou

Co-ownership happens often with breeders, but this guardian program you speak of sounds kind of scammy to me.

My current dog I received from the breeder because she did not feel she had enough time to properly give her. She was a free dog with the option to breed and keep one puppy, or to show. We did breed (I reached out to her for this), but never showed. These were voluntary though. There was no contract. She gave me all the papers and her vaccine/vet history when we decided she would remain with us. These kind of interactions help the breeder, as others have stated with allowing them to focus on stock they can use and I see nothing wrong with it.

This is not the same type of co-ownership that most good breeders engage in - in most cases, a breeder puts their name on the bitch so that you can’t breed without their permission. Or, if you do, you will to be able to register the litter because they need to sign off on the litter registration.

This breeder gave you the option of showing the dog OR breeding and keeping a puppy? So they got the other puppies? That’s really unusual and sounds pretty much like a guardian program.

[emipou]

@S1969

This is not the same type of co-ownership that most good breeders engage in - in most cases, a breeder puts their name on the bitch so that you can’t breed without their permission. Or, if you do, you will to be able to register the litter because they need to sign off on the litter registration.

This breeder gave you the option of showing the dog OR breeding and keeping a puppy? So they got the other puppies? That’s really unusual and sounds pretty much like a guardian program.

What I have is not co-ownership. She recognized that her kennels were becoming too much for her with her health conditions and gave me the dog. She is 100% my dog to do whatever I want with.

[S1969]

@emipou

What I have is not co-ownership. She recognized that her kennels were becoming too much for her with her health conditions and gave me the dog. She is 100% my dog to do whatever I want with.

Then I don’t understand what you are saying - she is yours, and she was free, but only if you agreed to show or breed her?

But…whatever. Breeders place puppies/dogs in all kinds of unique situations with a variety of conditions…with or without contracts.

Usually, though, co-ownership is for the protection of the bitch and the breeder’s reputation - so that puppy buyers can’t set up shop as a “breeder” using the breeding line from someone else’s kennel without their permission. And, really, who can blame them. Some breeders have spent their entire lives learning, showing, testing, and selecting the best breeding stock. To let someone with no knowledge or ethics just crank out puppies with one of their offspring is a horrific thought.

[Marshfield]

I placed my pick bitch from last year with someone who already had a puppy from me. She’s on co-own. Trish is family to me at this point, I pay all conformation showing and health care costs. Trish invests the energy. I just sent in her preliminary OFA hips and elbows. I’ll cover all the breeding costs and raise the litter. We’ll split any profits. I typically at least break even.

[Simkie]

I wish the OP would come back and update us on the details of this situation!

[vxf111]

What breed is the OP talking about anyway, I am curious

[DoubleClick]

What you are describing does not sound like something a responsible breeder would do. As a breeder myself, we will occasionally engage in co-ownerships, which gives us varying levels of breeding involvement should the bitch, in the future, finish her championship and pass her health tests. Right now, I’m sitting here watching five unruly 9 week old border terrier babies whose mama we co-own. She came here to whelp and raise her litter, but that’s only because her primary owner wasn’t up for puppies. A reputable breeder who sells a bitch on a co-ownership should be very, very involved in that girl’s life every step of the way. The typical “max” number of times we’ll breed a bitch is 3 times. Gestating, whelping, and raising puppies is hard work on a bitch, both physically and emotionally. 3 times max, and then they get to focus on performance events/go back to the show ring and dote on another bitch’s babies.

[Where_sMyWhite]

DoubleClick… Luv me those Border Terriers (I have 2 that own me ).

[emipou]

@S1969

Then I don’t understand what you are saying - she is yours, and she was free, but only if you agreed to show or breed her?

I think I just worded it strangely in my first comment. I meant to say - the dog was mine to whatever I wanted with, be it to breed or show or not breed or not show. No contract, I was given the paperwork to change ownership completely with AKC.