"Guardian" or "Host" home for dog breeders. How many pregnancies are standard?

[Kallie]

Hello All! First post, and it is a little weird.

I volunteered to be a “Guardian” for a new puppy. How the guardian program works, a breeder gives you a female puppy. You raise it like it is your own, but when it is old enough you return it, just for breeding. The original breeder keeps the dog for a few weeks a year while it is in heat, and for a about 12 weeks when it is about to give birth, through the weening process. The breeder pays for all the vet bills related to fertility, pregnancy, and birth. I pay for all other vet costs. After a set number of pregnancies, the dog is spayed and I become the full time owner.

I like the idea of the program, but have some concerns. My biggest concern is the number of pregnancies. The contract states that the dog will be pregnant 5 times. I don’t know anything about breeding - is that a lot? A few? Industry standard? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[DrBeckett]

5 is not really a lot. I have a friend who does the same thing with her bitches and it works out great for everyone. She has a yorkie that has had 8 litters. her vet told her that this dog could be bred every year if she wanted, she’s a very healthy dog. I would say that 5 is probably average.

[S1969]

None. Good breeders never use a “guardian” program.

Co-ownership, maybe. Using a “guardian” is a way for breeders to reduce the number of dog they have to support financially, and/or number of litters they have at their own kennel for licensing, money, convenience, or pubic relations.

I have never met a good breeder that does this.

Is 5 a lot of times to be bred? Depends on the bitch and what she offers to the breeding/gene pool. Unless she has some wonderful assets, yes, I think 5 is a lot. Most good breeders will want their dogs to be “proven” in some way to show that they are worth breeding - in the show ring, field, obedience, rally, agility, or something else. It would be unusual for a bitch that has been proven (meaning has been out in the world, competing and being judged) to have time to still produce 5 litters.

Most health testing also cannot be done until the dog is 2. So somewhere between 2 and…6…at which time most breeders want to retire their breeding bitches…5 is unusual. Not impossible. She would have to be fabulous.

But, unless your contract also specifies that you show/trial the dog and obtain certain health clearances at certain ages, this is a puppy mill.

[Simkie]

@S1969

But, unless your contract also specifies that you show/trial the dog and obtain certain health clearances at certain ages, this is a puppy mill.

I couldn’t like this more than once so I’m repeating it.

[Trakehner]

Sounds terrible. Every year “your” dog will be at a strangers house for 3.5 months? How is that good for her? Even better, go to a rescue and get one of their dogs…a win-win proposition. Just horrid, a “rent a uterus” with you get her after 5 litters…horrid.

Is the lucky mom being shown so earning points to make sure she’s a good example of the breed…why else would you breed

[S1969]

@Trakehner

Sounds terrible. Every year “your” dog will be at a strangers house for 3.5 months? How is that good for her? Even better, go to a rescue and get one of their dogs…a win-win proposition. Just horrid, a “rent a uterus” with you get her after 5 litters…horrid.

Is the lucky mom being shown so earning points to make sure she’s a good example of the breed…why else would you breed

I have no objection to breeding and not going to a rescue for a “win/win”. I’m not in full agreement that rescues are “win/win”. And I don’t think three months at another person’s house is horrible or detrimental.

But - there are a lot of good breeders that will place puppies with co-owners and breed them IF (and only IF) the bitch ends up to be of “breeding quality” - which is impossible to assess at 8 weeks. There are many other pieces to that contract - not just “will be bred 5 times.”

Otherwise, I agree that this is a “rent a uterus” situation. Puppy mill in sheep’s clothing.

[Sandysmom]

What S1969 said. Not something a responsible breeder would do. Definitely a puppy mill.

[Marshfield]

As other have said, the lack of mention of titling and health clearances is concerning. 5 litters is more than most typically do. I usually aim for three, Everyone has full health clearances and titles in one or more AKC disciplines.

[Aly]

@S1969

None. Good breeders never use a “guardian” program.

Co-ownership, maybe. Using a “guardian” is a way for breeders to reduce the number of dog they have to support financially, and/or number of litters they have at their own kennel for licensing, money, convenience, or pubic relations.

I have never met a good breeder that does this.

Is 5 a lot of times to be bred? Depends on the bitch and what she offers to the breeding/gene pool. Unless she has some wonderful assets, yes, I think 5 is a lot. Most good breeders will want their dogs to be “proven” in some way to show that they are worth breeding - in the show ring, field, obedience, rally, agility, or something else. It would be unusual for a bitch that has been proven (meaning has been out in the world, competing and being judged) to have time to still produce 5 litters.

Most health testing also cannot be done until the dog is 2. So somewhere between 2 and…6…at which time most breeders want to retire their breeding bitches…5 is unusual. Not impossible. She would have to be fabulous.

But, unless your contract also specifies that you show/trial the dog and obtain certain health clearances at certain ages, this is a puppy mill.

This. I don’t show or do sport with my dogs, but I’ve had pb dogs from reputable breeders for 20+ years. NONE of them would even consider doing this.

Puppy mill is right.

Aly

[GoodTimes]

Yup I don’t like it either.
Unless like others said the contract states that the dog must be titled, etc., end up breeding quality, and pass all health clearances. But again, by this time the dog would be at least 2-3 years old, and at that point I would consider 5 litters a lot.

A good breeder will thoroughly vet any buyers, have a clause in all the contracts that the puppies will be spayed/neutered unless there is a health reason that prohibits that, or unless a buyer is seriously interested in buying a very nice pup and putting the time and money into them to show/trial/title, wait until they pass all health clearances and then breed said dog to another healthy, well bred, proven dog.

Anything other than that is a puppy mill of sorts.

[Simkie]

It is pretty brilliant to run a puppy mill this way, though. Other people house and care for the dogs, you still get, oh, what? 15-40 puppies out of each bitch. And since all the girls you “own” in this way won’t come into heat at the same time, it’s a lot harder to identify you as a hoarder/puppy mill because you don’t have them all on your property at the same time.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Count me in the majority. I’ve never been a breeder but always gotten my dogs from reputable breeders.

I believe in quality dogs being used as parents… either conformation and/or performance titles or at least working in their breed expertise. I believe in healthy dogs being used as parents… different breeds may have differing health concerns that can be tested for and I believe those should be done for any parent. (Yes, I did that research before I got my puppies and based some of my decision on who to get my puppy from on the breeder’s level of responsibility to breeding healthy dogs.)

IMO, 5 is 1-2 litters too many. IMO (breeders may have different thoughts), a breeder is supposed to be breeding to improve their breed. After 2-3 litters, a nice bitch should have daughters that have improved on their dam and the dam retired from breeding. Co-ownership might be applicable in this case… selling daughters to someone who will be willing, if the bitch is nice, to breed for a litter or two.

Breeding can also be risky for the bitch, both with dystocias and with diseases such as pyometra (uterine infection).

I might allow my nice bitch to go back to the breeder for a breeding but I’d sure be thinking twice about it… and she’d have to be really nice.

[Trakehner]

@Where'sMyWhite

Breeding can also be risky for the bitch, both with dystocias and with diseases such as pyometra (uterine infection).

And, some breeds will usually require a C-section to deliver puppies (e.g. French and English Bulldogs)…4-5 C-sections isn’t good for anyone.

[Bluey]

Why would anyone want to own a dog and still share it with someone else part of the time, all to the benefit of the other person, so it can have puppies to sell?

Doesn’t make any sense to go into such a contract, not at all.

OP, get a dog from a good breeder and care for it and enjoy it in your own home all it’s life.
No need to stress the dog thru sending it somewhere else and get pregnant and have puppies and then come back home to repeat that, five times?

I can’t imagine doing that to any of my dogs.

Who would fall for that one?

[S1969]

@Bluey

Why would anyone want to own a dog and still share it with someone else part of the time, all to the benefit of the other person, so it can have puppies to sell?

I suspect because the “breeder” is giving the buyer a “great deal” on price and/or telling them that they would never have the opportunity to own such a nice dog in any other way. (E.g. the whole “breeders are so picky and demanding” thing.)

In my breed, it is very possible to get a very nice dog without jumping through massive hoops with a breeder. It’s even possible for some people to get a bitch, although it is true that some breeders will sell their bitches on limited registration or require co-ownership. The main reason, of course, is so that the buyer doesn’t decide to use the bitch as a uterus for hire.

Not every breed is as common/available as mine, but many are - if you look for them. No, you’re not going to see them advertised on Craigslist, but a little effort will often find good breeders that are willing to sell pets and not just show/performance dogs.

[SonnysMom]

One of our local doberman, rottie breeders does “breeders terms”. It is only 2 litters before full ownership of the bitch is turned over. I consider this particular place to be a puppy mill. Their only criteria seems to be size. They sell the puppies for big money and many are shipped outside the country. Anytime that I see a local dog from this breeder I can tell since they are generally much bigger than breed standard. Understand I know nothing about dobies or rotties and can still peg the breeder.

How this particular breeder works for local bitches is- bitch goes to breeder to get bred. Bitch goes back home with feeding instructions, bitch is welped out at the home by the bitch owner and puppies cared for there until weaning. Breeder normally stops by and does basic shots and will tail dock as necessary. Bitch owner gets to either keep 2nd pick of litter or they can sell that puppy back to the breeder.
In this scenario the bitch owner has a lot of expenses and work with paying for the food etc… during pregnancy and lactation. You have an inexperienced owner welping out puppies and handling young puppies. Who knows what mom dog was really fed or the puppies were really fed as they transitioned to weaning. Ol’ Roy or Taste of the Wild.

I think many people don’t realize how hard or how expensive raising a litter of puppies is. So a free bitch but 2 free puppies (2nd pick from each litter) sounds wonderful.

Of course the buyers of the puppies never get to meet the mother and many times not the father. This breeder gets semen shipped from places like Czech Repub and Poland.

They also have been known to have 2 or more litters in one pen when you pick your puppy. Remember the breeder didn’t raise these puppies so can’t tell one litter from another.

Over the years they normally have had a 3rd breed in addition to the dobies and rotties. Cane Corso, Shar Pei, wolf hybrids.

Puppy mill

[S1969]

@SonnysMom

One of our local doberman, rottie breeders does “breeders terms”. It is only 2 litters before full ownership of the bitch is turned over. I consider this particular place to be a puppy mill. Their only criteria seems to be size. They sell the puppies for big money and many are shipped outside the country. Anytime that I see a local dog from this breeder I can tell since they are generally much bigger than breed standard. Understand I know nothing about dobies or rotties and can still peg the breeder.

How this particular breeder works for local bitches is- bitch goes to breeder to get bred. Bitch goes back home with feeding instructions, bitch is welped out at the home by the bitch owner and puppies cared for there until weaning. Breeder normally stops by and does basic shots and will tail dock as necessary. Bitch owner gets to either keep 2nd pick of litter or they can sell that puppy back to the breeder.
In this scenario the bitch owner has a lot of expenses and work with paying for the food etc… during pregnancy and lactation. You have an inexperienced owner welping out puppies and handling young puppies. Who knows what mom dog was really fed or the puppies were really fed as they transitioned to weaning. Ol’ Roy or Taste of the Wild.

I think many people don’t realize how hard or how expensive raising a litter of puppies is. So a free bitch but 2 free puppies (2nd pick from each litter) sounds wonderful.

Puppy mill

Wow, I am amazed that the “breeder” allows the potential 1st time dog buyer to whelp a litter of puppies.

I have owned my current breed for almost 20 years, and shown and competed them all. All males, one bred once, except I took ownership of an older, spayed bitch. I would love my older male to be bred again, but not being a bitch owner I don’t get to choose as easily. I have been told that I could lease a bitch and that would enable me to be the “breeder” of record and I would have more control over choice.

I told my good friend that “no one in their right mind” would allow me to lease their bitch and whelp a litter. I have NO experience with bitches, pregnancy, whelping or raising a litter. And I know enough people that have had breeding/whelping emergencies to know that quick life and death decisions might need to be made. I am not experienced enough to be responsible for someone else’s bitch. No good breeder would let me lease - and I agree with them!

I guess that this “breeder” doesn’t really care that much if they lose the bitch or some/all of the puppies.

Puppy mill.

[Sobriska]

S1969 spot on!
Do not participate in puppy mill breeder

[Houndhill]

Very clearly a Puppy Mill.

I have seen this “Guardian” ploy most often with the various “Doodle” puppy producers. Many of these “producers” also require puppies to be s/n at eight weeks unless on this “Guardian” scam.

I cant believe people fall for it.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@S1969

In my breed, it is very possible to get a very nice dog without jumping through massive hoops with a breeder. It’s even possible for some people to get a bitch, although it is true that some breeders will sell their bitches on limited registration or require co-ownership. The main reason, of course, is so that the buyer doesn’t decide to use the bitch as a uterus for hire.

This yes. Often the breeder will co-own the pup to “manage” any potential offspring from the now grown up puppy. Still can be bred but puppies can’t be registered, IIRC, without all co-owners signing. Many of my pups were co-owned by the breeder but really no ‘interference’ from the breeder.

@S1969

Not every breed is as common/available as mine, but many are - if you look for them. No, you’re not going to see them advertised on Craigslist, but a little effort will often find good breeders that are willing to sell pets and not just show/performance dogs.

Often the “pets” from good breeders are those that the breeder feels wouldn’t be competition suitable for their level of competition or desired breeding stock. Nothing really wrong with the puppy but just not what the breeder might have been looking for.

I researched both my breeders and did my own research on parents health (for at least the last one, first one was a bit of a different story ). Both came from breeders that bred for competition but these were both sold as ‘pets’. I was looking for a companion dog that could compete non-conformation

My first of my current breed was too small for what was pinning in the conformation ring and the second had a suspected bent tail. They’re both fine, healthy and fun dogs. They both are learning nose work. My first one has done one AKC Scent Work trial and Q’d on the 4 elements we trialed in . Size and bent tails don’t matter to me nor to them. The second one was destined for a different home until the tail made its appearance so he came to live with me :love-struck:

No way would I agree to something like what the first poster described.