H&H Article: Thoroughbreds just as good as other breeds in 5* Eventing

[beowulf]

Thoroughbreds are just as good as other breeds in five-star eventing,...

Thought COTHers might enjoy this article.

Across country, thoroughbreds were “significantly more likely” to jump clear inside the time compared to non-thoroughbreds – almost 14% of all thoroughbred entries from the data had no cross-country penalties – but non-thoroughbreds were twice as likely to showjump clear than thoroughbreds.

It was fascinating to see that a lot of public perception is correct; thoroughbreds do not score as well in dressage and as someone who’s always ridden thoroughbreds, I understand that to be true. I think we could further disseminate it to look at whether that’s truly because thoroughbreds are not as good at dressage, or because there is a judging bias, or because Olympians tend to have a lot of funding and are probably not on thoroughbreds.

Bold mine as it was an interesting statement to me. I’ve felt it can be 50/50. I’ve found if I don’t say my horse is a TB, he tends to get much more positively framed remarks.

Also would be worth exploring if TBs that never started (for racing) statistically score better than those that do. Thinking of the very high percentage blood/TBs (Sam, Abraxas) that were competitive in dressage. It could be that the starting for racing is detrimental to their dressage success, not the breed. N=1 here but I’ve found dressage so much easier on TBs that never raced (or were started to race), versus those that did.

What is really interesting to me about this article is how it indirectly reinforces how much weight dressage has in final placings; despite the fact TBs appear to be statistically more likely to jump clear inside the time (and 14% have no XC penalties - a huge number), they aren’t winning as often as other breeds.

[NaturallyHappy]

My late DH (Grand Prix showjumper, FEI veterinarian from Europe) used to say something to the effect that the very best TBs could easily compete w any other breed EXCEPT they rarely made it into the hands of people talented enough to make them up as show horses. They wound up on breeding farms.
My beloved TB routinely beat WBs in the hunter ring.

[NancyM]

Duh.

[beowulf]

Smart man he was!!

[Texarkana]

I think Monica Spencer’s Artist has done more for the TB in modern eventing than any other horse as of late. A TB who can also be competitive in dressage? Now everyone wants one again!

[TT211]

Bit of a brag- I bought a TB from Carleigh before she moved to Colorado, about 2 years ago.
He’s 7 now and still has some punk/ baby horse moments, but he’s an amazing athlete and I’m grateful for the amazing post track restart that Carleigh gave him.
I thought my 3’6” days were in the past, but Seb says ‘Hold my beer and grab some mane!’

[Marigold]

@Texarkana

I think Monica Spencer’s Artist has done more for the TB in modern eventing than any other horse as of late. A TB who can also be competitive in dressage? Now everyone wants one again!

We have short memories - Parklane Hawk, Clifton Promise, Willingapark Clifford. That’s just me naming full TB 5* winners off the top of my head from the last decade.

Parklane Hawk was under the saddle of William Fox-Pitt and won two. Clifton Promise won That Badminton (when WFP and Andrew went head to head for the Grand Slam and Michael and Sam were there too - the full TB beat them all) and was second at two other 5 stars. Clifford is one of only four horses in the history of the sport (the other three being Priceless, La Biosthetique Sam, and Ballaghmor Class) to win four or more 5*/championships in his career.

Phenomenal horses.

[Texarkana]

@Marigold

@Texarkana

I think Monica Spencer’s Artist has done more for the TB in modern eventing than any other horse as of late. A TB who can also be competitive in dressage? Now everyone wants one again!

We have short memories - Parklane Hawk, Clifton Promise, Willingapark Clifford. That’s just me naming full TB 5* winners off the top of my head from the last decade.

Parklane Hawk was under the saddle of William Fox-Pitt and won two. Clifton Promise won That Badminton (when WFP and Andrew went head to head for the Grand Slam and Michael and Sam were there too - the full TB beat them all) and was second at two other 5 stars. Clifford is one of only four horses in the history of the sport (the other three being Priceless, La Biosthetique Sam, and Ballaghmor Class) to win four or more 5*/championships in his career.

Phenomenal horses.

Oh I agree they were great horses. But they also were competitive a decade or more ago.

The sport has changed a lot in a very short time.

[Marigold]

@Texarkana

Oh I agree they were great horses. But they also were competitive a decade or more ago.

The sport has changed a lot in a very short time.

I’m not sure I’d totally agree with this. Clifford just won his fourth Adelaide two months ago. Parklane Hawk was putting up 26 and change in dressage (once you adjust for the multiplier), Clifton Promise was even lower (as low as 24.4). Both good show jumpers and fast, brave cross country horses. Horses with that profile are very much candidates to win the biggest events, even today.

[beowulf]

Maybe breeders will take note of this article, and want their own Clifford or Artist and try to breed it.

One can hope. It is concerning that the numbers are dwindling.

[Texarkana]

@Marigold

@Texarkana

Oh I agree they were great horses. But they also were competitive a decade or more ago.

The sport has changed a lot in a very short time.

I’m not sure I’d totally agree with this. Clifford just won his fourth Adelaide two months ago. Parklane Hawk was putting up 26 and change in dressage (once you adjust for the multiplier), Clifton Promise was even lower (as low as 24.4). Both good show jumpers and fast, brave cross country horses. Horses with that profile are very much candidates to win the biggest events, even today.

My bad, I totally did not see you add Willagapark Clifford in there. I just saw the other two and glossed over him. Yes, he did win and at 20!!!

Fair point that the horses would still be scoring competitively today.

Although I think you will hear it time and time again from the top riders that nearly all of them want a TB on XC but those who want to truly be competitive feel they have to look elsewhere.

[Aussie_2020]

I’ve heard that most of the top trainers don’t want to put in the time to start and keep a tb going. Never understood that when I’ve also heard them say stuff about their wb and wbx being hot, spooky, or plain difficult.

[SusanO]

I don’t think it is the dressage that keeps them out of the high placing - it is stadium/show jumping. Look at Ingrid Klimke - she would be on the top after dressage with Sleep Late? and Abraxas. They were not flashy movers but she never gave up a point in her test - ten for halts, transitions at the letter, lack of tension… Sam was not a flashy mover but M Jung does not give up a point either. Perfect relaxation and makes the test look easy. So you do not have to be riding a 10 mover in dressage.

And I wondered why TB’s had a problem in show jumping because, back in the day, the top riders only rode TB’s - Mike Plumb, Jimmy Wofford, etc, and they did not regularly have rails down. BUT - horses for courses. Back in those days you did not see all the technical jumps and combinations that you see today in stadium courses. Nobody wanted eventing to be a dressage show and if you made the cross country harder or the times faster - nobody wanted to see horses or riders get injured or killed. So I think these days show jumping is used to separate the winners.

And a good cross country horse does not overjump or spend too much time in the air. A flatter jumping technique is a plus when you are running cross country as long as it is safe. No lost time and a TB can turn on the afterburners and move up on cross country day. But that flatter technique and a technical stadium course does not bode well for stadium jumping day. Eventing has gotten away from its earlier roots when endurance was so important and the winners are not a bunch of “jack of all trades”. Now they are masters of all phases. So you need a horse that can do all phases well to win and that is a hard task - gallop like a throughbred cross country day and jump stadium like a Holsteiner. I think saying that the riders these days cannot ride a TB is BS. The top riders can pretty much ride anything. They are looking for that magic unicorn that can do all three phases and it is hard to find.

[Texarkana]

@SusanO

I don’t think it is the dressage that keeps them out of the high placing - it is stadium/show jumping.

That is very true. For example, if you look at this past Kentucky (because it’s an easy reference point):

Out of every TB in the 4 and 5 star fields, I believe only one TB had no rails in SJ- Beautiful Storm.

[beowulf]

It’s not just the stadium that keeps them out of high placing. It starts with the dressage; the very good tests can afford to pull rails and still be competitive. TBs just don’t tend to get that extra buffer room, for whatever reason.

That a breed not even bred for eventing can be “just as good as other breeds” that were actually bred for the sport gives me hope maybe breeders would consider breeding TBs for eventing rather than sourcing racing cast offs. Wouldn’t that be an incredible thing to see, a TB bred to event versus run?

[SusanO]

I believe Bruce Davidson used to do that. I don’t know if he still has a breeding program or not. And back in the day this was what you heard “If you want to win you have to have a thoroughbred”. And there were breeding programs that bred TB’s for the hunter/jumper disciplines and eventing. The horses they used were not popular racehorse bloodlines. I remember one breeder who was disgusted that the new owners of a mare she raised “was bred to a racehorse”. You had Nightlark, Independence, Catch on Fire and others that would never have gotten down the racetrack fast enough to win anything but were top sires for the eventing and hunter/jumper disciplines.

But people did not want to go to the expense to breed when their competition was cheap off the track horses. Sure, not all of them would work out but they were plentiful and cheap. And the idea “You can’t breed jumpers”. Well the Europeans sure did and I guess it became cheaper to go over there and buy instead of breeding your own. And courses became more technical which favored a horse that did not have to get up a head of steam to jump a big jump. If you look at old clips of Billy Steinkraus and Kathy Kusner - they jumped enormous fences. But you did not see so many triple and double combinations as today. The old style warmbloods could not jump today’s courses either - too slow reflexes and not enough rideability. So the Europeans adjusted their breeding programs.

I do think it is kind of silly to insinuate that people do not know the importance of TB blood in an eventer. Warmbloods were not developed to gallop. A TB has so many more gears in the gallop and has the stamina that WB’s do not have. Breeders are looking for that unicorn - TB ability to gallop without taking away jumping ability. See how many top eventers that have Heraldik blood. I doubt Heraldik would have won the Kentucky Derby but he seems to have a pretty big presence in top eventers. There are probably more that would nick but breeding is expensive in this country.

[moatsngoats]

I love this article. I also wonder - with the increased focus on welfare and abuse in equestrian sports, riders to be riding without excessive force (i.e. not using the whip excessively, etc), are TBs going to become a “safer” choice for riders? By that I mean, riders don’t need to worry about being seen “encouraging” an OTTB excessively with a whip/spurs or needing to ride super aggressively in a way that could raise welfare concerns, especially for PETA type folks…

This is OBVIOUSLY a generalization - but on the whole, TBs are generally more forward thinking than most WBs (hence why they have the reputation of being solid XC horses). Obviously TBs have other issues, like anxiety, that might raise concerns for the general public watching - but especially thinking about if a no-whip rule were to be put into place, personally I’d rather be on a TB…

[Willesdon]

A slightly different point of view. In the UK, “Retraining of Racehorses”, and similar charities, put on a wide variety of shows and classes that are increasingly popular. Currently, the fastest growing section of British Dressage is TB dressage. We have quite a few TBs in the British Isles so they are available for their second career in point to pointing, hunting, polo, team chasing, dressage, showing (hacks, show hunters etc), endurance and just being good family horses as well as eventing. So there is a trickle rather than a flow into the sport.

My personal view is that dressage is no longer dominating the competition because everyone has upped their game. When 40 used to be respectable now sub 30 is mid field and the best are getting sub 20, across all competition levels. As dressage is understood better - “training” - then any horse can be trained appropriately, regardless of breed. TBs are different from WB but they can still be taught to perform the dressage moves.

However, as 5* is the exception and championships and the Olympics run at 4*, the endurance and grit of the TB is less important and the jump of the WB becomes a significant element when professionals, who dominate the upper levels, pick out their potential winners. Paul Schockemohle alone breeds more performance WB horses than does the entire UK TB industry. Scale matters here.

Last season, I had the interesting experience of talking to a young Irish international rider who was commenting on the difficulty of finding good event horses in Ireland these days. Even the Irish are into breeding WB (ISH) rather than the traditionally bred hunters and eventers.

[Texarkana]

I think everyone has upped their game in everything. Period.

Dressage is ridden with more precision. XC courses require more than fitness and bravery- they are extremely technical. A XC horse from 30 years ago would crash and burn through all these combinations where you have to blindly hold your line. Stadium courses are no longer just some painted sticks in a field; you are jumping a mini prix. And, if you falter with a sub-optimal performance, your weekend can end instantly.

So it makes sense that a breed bred for another purpose isn’t as competitive as horses bred for the exact purpose.

Horses are extremely purpose-bred now in every discipline, not just the Olympic ones. They have to be.

And believe me, I’m not anti-TB. Quite the opposite. It makes it all the more impressive that they can still be competitive today!

[Janet]

@SusanO

Back in those days you did not see all the technical jumps and combinations that you see today in stadium courses.

I think there was a crucial change in 2010, when the objective of the Show Jumping Phase was changed from

This Test is designed to prove the suppleness, obedience and jumping ability of the horse. At the same time, it demonstrates the competitor’s knowledge of pace and the use of his horse in the jumping arena. It is not a test of style or endurance

to

Its main objective is to prove that, the horse and rider are well trained in the specialist discipline of show jumping

.