Hackamores in jumpers but not hunters… please explain :)

[Stushica]

Recently I was reading through a local show bill and the class rules/ descriptions. The description on their website for Hunter/ Equitation said “Traditional hunter bits are permitted (eggbutt, D, full-cheek snaffles, pelhams, kimberwickes, etc.)hackamores should not be used.”

Then under Jumper classes it read “Traditional hunter bits are permitted (eggbutt, D, full-cheek snaffles, pelhams, kimberwickes, etc.) as well as jumper bits or any safe hackamore.”

So, my questions are (and I’m not trying to be a pita…)

A. Are hackamores allowed in the hunter/ eq classes and simply frowned up on because they are non traditional? Or am I really reaching because it says “should not” and not “do not”?

B. Why is this? I’m not being snarky, just curious!!

C. What are the rules in rated shows? The same? Different?

D. What is your opinion, and why?

[Stushica]

Found this posted by Sing Mia Song in the FAQ’s …. Does anyone know if the USEF made a statement regarding hackamores?

There is NO SUCH THING as “illegal” tack in the hunters, with the exception of a martingale in the under saddle.

That said, the rule book says that “unconventional tack may be penalized at the judge’s discretion,” AND there are some “illegalities” in the equitation, the most notable being no martingales in flat classes. I’ve noted the other exceptions below.

What does this mean for you if you are thinking of dabbling in Hunterland? Here’s some examples (not meant to be exhaustive):

Most Conventional
D snaffle
Standing martingale
Laced or braided reins

Conventional, but not currently “trendy”
Full cheek snaffle
Eggbutt snaffle
Pelham (unless you are in the eq)
Breastplate

Pretty unconventional
Kimberwicke (some judges tolerate them, most hate them)
Fixed reinsets on bit, i.e. the Myler snaffles with hooks, aka “cheater gags”
Rubber reins
Full bridle (I’ve seen it, but ONLY in the eq)

Very, very unconventional
Gag (specifically prohibited in the USET)
Elevator
Hackamore (specifically prohibited in the USET)
Drop, flash or figure 8 noseband (Thanks, Chef Jade, for pointing this out!)
Running martingale (unless it’s the USET eq class, where you speficially cannot use a standing)
“old fashioned” breastplate (where it goes straight across the horse’s shoulders and chest)

[crosscreeksh]

IMO…it is because Show Hunters are based on the “traditional” foxhunting protocol. Snaffle, Pelham, double bridles are the bridle of choice. Jumpers and eventers are left to be more creative…but not Show Hunters. That’s just the “way it is”!!

[Sing_Mia_Song]

Wow, Stushica, time warp!

When sitting in the announcer’s booth with many, many captive judges, I use the time that I have them hostage to pick their brains. You’ll recall a couple years ago that bitless bridles were all the rage, and all of the judges I sat with said they wouldn’t use a non-bitted horse in the hunters, because acceptance and obedience of the bit is a fundamental trait for a show hunter. You can disagree, but that was the overwhelming sentiment.

As one beginner kid’s school horse mount wearing a bitless bridle dove out the barely-cracked-open gate during a flat class, one judge turned to me and said dryly, “And that’s why I don’t like 'em.” (The gate being unlatched also got the starter a talking-to!)

[Sandcastle85]

When I was checking something in the rulebook the other day, it looks like there’s been a (very) recent change to the hunter tack rules. As of 4/1/2014 some bits, nosebands, etc. are actually illegal, while others are still simply unconventional and penalized at the judge’s discretion. A snaffle, pelham or full bridle is required, with unconventional variations of the former (a hunter gag and kimberwicke as listed as examples) subjecting the wearer to possible penalty, but not elimination.

A big change is that now a judge must eliminate horses using unconventional tack, like drop nosebands or three-ring elevators.

ETA: in response to your question OP, I believe a hackamore would be considered illegal under these new rules, as it’s not even a variant of the allowed tack.

[AmmyByNature]

[QUOTE=Sing Mia Song;7804282]
…all of the judges I sat with said they wouldn’t use a non-bitted horse in the hunters, because acceptance and obedience of the bit is a fundamental trait for a show hunter…[/QUOTE]

This is what I’ve always understood - a hunter should accept the bit.

If you have a horse that doesn’t accept a bit, don’t show him in the hunters.

[snaffle635]

Whoa! Sandcastle’s post prompted me to revisit HU125 and, sure enough, there are some big changes of which I was not aware. Maybe I’ve been under a rock (haven’t shown in a year), but I had no idea you could use a running martingale in the hunters now.

[Madeline]

HAven’t you always been allowed to use a running? Back in the dark ages it was the only option in formal attire (Appointments, Corinthian) classes.

[Stushica]

Sing Mia Song I’m surprised you even found this thread! I don’t disagree per say, I just started thinking about this in relation to my green horse. She would wear a 4.5" bit (I have a curved mouth french link in a 4.75 that is huge on her) and I had most certainly intended on using a bit on her to further her training eventually, more or less, just because and for showing(local most likely). I’m just finding hiccups in that plan because of a few different reasons.

First off I have a strong preference for double jointed bits (or solid mouth), especially with the super sensitives but to find one in pony size the price seems to sky rocket… if you can ever actually find them. But mostly because she’s being doing fantastic in a leather halter with a nose fuzzy. She’s uber sensitive, and I’ve started taking her out on trail rides and through fields and she has spooked, bucked a few times, and generally had some silly green horse moments but anytime I put even light to moderate pressure all things come to a halt immediately(she knows that halt is a non negotiable command). So, I’m really starting to feel like it’s just not necessary and probably too harsh for her. (I know I’m probably over worrying and thus far she’s been a rockstar about al things new)

Any-who, I just looked up the USEF handbook and can’t find where it talks about unconventional bits/ etc, do you have a screen shot of specific link? It’s been ages since I’ve even been to a schooling show but I recall running/ standing martingale’s were about 60/40 on horses that had them, that would be a fair amount of dismissals.

Alas, thank you for pointing out the obvious, AmmyByNature, as I stated I was having a quandary and wanted to take a moment to look at history and learn something, and not, just do it “because”. After-all we’re finding out that too may be wrong as things change. Heavens knows my horse and I have about a thousand more circles to trot, and, uncountable cross rails to jump before even considering showing, but I’m collecting info for when that does get here.

[Stushica]

Never-mind I found it!

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=Stushica;7804640]
Sing Mia Song I’m surprised you even found this thread! I don’t disagree per say, I just started thinking about this in relation to my green horse. She would wear a 4.5" bit (I have a curved mouth french link in a 4.75 that is huge on her) and I had most certainly intended on using a bit on her to further her training eventually, more or less, just because and for showing(local most likely). I’m just finding hiccups in that plan because of a few different reasons.

First off I have a strong preference for double jointed bits (or solid mouth), especially with the super sensitives but to find one in pony size the price seems to sky rocket… if you can ever actually find them. [/QUOTE]

4.5" is a pretty standard pony sized bit. I’m surprised an actual, full-sized horse would need one, but they’re easy to find. This bit, for example, is double jointed, gentle, and the pony-sized 4.5" is is the same price I paid for the 5.5" one I use on my dressage bridle. A loose ring isn’t the in thing for hunters, but it’s absolutely legal, and at a local show, no one would care. Here’s a whole page of pony-sized bits.

For future reference, both yours and others, both hunters and dressage specifically require a bit. USEF rules are free and accessible to all. The current hunter rule on bits (HU 125.1):

Snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nose bands, are required.
a. Judges may penalize, but may not eliminate, a horse or pony that competes in an
unconventional snaffle, pelham, or full bridle. Unconventional snaffles, pelhams, or
full bridles include, but are not limited to, hunter gags, kimberwickes, etc.
b. Judges must eliminate a horse or pony that competes in bits other than snaffles,
pelhams or full bridles, and nosebands other than cavesson nosebands. Illegal bits
include, but are not limited to, three rings, gags (other than the hunter gag), et cetera…
Illegal nosebands include, but are not limited to, drop, flash and figure eight
nosebands.

[WNT]

A side question for my bit-inista self: what is a “hunter gag”? Something like a Myler Dee with the hidden hooks?

[Stushica]

Well, she’s a 14.2 hand arab, therefore a “horse” but really pony sized. I did however find an eggbutt and a D in a 4.5 so thank you for that I’m typically out of fashion I just tend to not use a loose ring until they carry the bit well, and I know I don’t need the sides anymore lol.

This “I’ll just buy a little horse instead of something 16+ hands” is getting expensive little by little lol

[Stushica]

http://www.marystack.com/half-cheek-hunting-gag.html?cmp=googleproducts&kw=half-cheek-hunting-gag&gclid=CJScgZGDq8ECFbNj7Aod11sAug

They look like this in use

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dqYQC0Flr0k/TojP6-fJhXI/AAAAAAAAQ-8/P6BQ2K3ETxA/s400/event_gag.jpg

[AmmyByNature]

I wasn’t trying to be snotty - acceptance of the bit has been a primary point in the hunters for ages. It’s like asking why hunters have to jump well to be successful but jumpers can have unconventional technique.

My apologies if you thought I was starting the obvious. I was just agreeing with the poster above me. The fact that hunters can’t go in hackamores is so basic to me that it doesn’t really prompt a discussion. Hunters should accept a bit. If you need to ride your horse in a hackamore because he won’t accept a bit, then you can’t show in the hunters.

I have no problem with hackamores. My trainer said just this weekend that she had been playing around with one on my horse. But she’s a jumper not a hunter.

[Stushica]

Thanks Ammy, no offense taken I just sort of giggled. Between yourself and others you have pretty much answered my question. Although I don’t buy the it’s always been that way answer(ever); I can see the importance of it being used as a gauge to judge the horses temperament, conformation, and suitability of a job. It might not be the way I want it to be, but at least there’s a reasonable explanation for it and It make it easier for me to want to work with her on that more so than “just because”.

I also didn’t ride hunters until I was about eh, 16, and I bought an eventer
for way less than he was worth… so I thought at the time, and thus my first experiences with hunters was a bit of trial and error. I’d rather ask stupid question than not know and not care.

This is totally irrelevant, but……
Honestly, I think that this stems back to being about 11 in one of my first few horse shows when I was told that my pony needed a curb bit to show because he had just turned 5. My mother and I had previously tried him in a low port short shanked bit and it wen’t over pretty badly with his head way up, shaking, and general nastiness. So I told her that and she said that she didn’t care what he did, he had to ride in a curb or they wouldn’t let me show. So I ask the same question. Why? What is the history? The first answer I got was that you needed one to neck rein. I very clearly remember being offended that an adult would think I was too stupid to know that horses that neck rein move off of pressure on the neck and leg duhhhh (Hey I was 11, I knew everything then) So I explained that he neck reined just fine without one and that argument was null. At that point she kneeled down and very quietly smiled and said “listen honey, that’s how the cowboys did it so we have to too….Don’t you want to be like the cowboys?” So I let her know that they also snubbed their horses and beat the crap out of them until they were too tired, lame, or bloody to fight back and broke them that way and I had no desire to treat my pony with excessive force the way the cowboys did and to continue to teach children that it was OK to use unnecessary force on their horses in the name of being a “cowboy” was terrible horsemanship and that they really needed to up the standards of horsemanship that they taught to young minds like mine, and come up with better sounding lies if they didn’t know the answer.

She told be to shut up and go away. (I think it was nice of her to not beat me )

[RugBug]

I just wanted to point out that a hackamore isn’t considered a starter bridle even in western riding. The progression is usually snaffle bit, hackamore, curb. Serious trainers have a list of skills the young horse must be able to do before it can move fro the snaffle to the hackamore. So, even where a hackamore is considered fairly standard, it is NOT a substitute for the bit and the horse is still taught to accept contact.

[enjoytheride]

If you are worried about your placing then I would find a conventional bit, conventional tack, and present your arab in a conventional manner.

If you are using the class as a training round then I would ride in one of the Dr Cook style bitless bridles, conventional tack, and present your arab in a conventional manner.

A Dr Cook style bridle is going to look as conventional as possible from a distance if that is your tack of choice and there is a chance the judge will be far enough away to not notice it. In addition, if your arab gets her changes, finds her distances, and is a tidy quiet jumper it isn’t going to matter much especially if everyone else is on a maniac. However, if your arab goes snorking around the ring and you have a D ring and a neon orange pad don’t blame the breed of your horse. Says an arab person.

[Stushica]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7805417]
…… However, if your arab goes snorking around the ring and you have a D ring and a neon orange pad don’t blame the breed of your horse. Says an arab person.[/QUOTE]

snork You made oatmeal come out my nose… not cool!

I’ve typically had the horse wearing a bridle, driving, and/or, lunging in side reins before getting on but then I tend to do the first handful of rides in a round pen in a halter, before moving back to the snaffle. Just how I prefer to do it, and I fell like things go smoother that way. FWIW, I was looking at the “jumping hackamores” which to me really don’t even look like a traditional hackamore, just a noseband with rings.

http://images.auctionants.com/5-170460.jpg

In my current situation, things just got a little derailed, and I was left with time to ponder…

[enjoytheride]

Honestly at the local yokel level a judge has a whole lot more to gasp at than if you have a D ring snaffle on. You’re probably going to win if you have lead changes and are wearing pants.