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Had a less than thrilling farrier visit today.... NEW UPDATE #107

Horse Care
#1

So a little back story: I recently acquired an OTTB who last raced Feb 27th. He had his shoes pulled at that time, and has been barefoot since. Sore for a couple weeks, but by the end of his 30 day let down (with the lady who pulled him off the track) he was sound and comfortable. Feet needed to do some growing, changing, and adjusting to the barefoot life, but overall were pretty good feet considering he had worn shoes for the last 5 years (he is 7).

Fast forward to today, and my farrier says he has water damaged hooves, and mild white line disease. I didn’t freak out because I can handle the RX which was white lightning gel. However, the whole situation with this horse was a trade deal and the lady who now has my old horse, was this horse’s owner and the one who pulled him off the track. She had commented on how her and her farrier were not impressed with my old horse’s angles. She was way off and uneven. I am a complete foot novice, so I had complete trust in my farrier with that horse, just as I had hoped to have trust in him for this horse. However after hearing not only from her, but from my horse’s body worker that my old horse was holding her adjustments great and looked amazing, I have decided to rethink my farrier.

He thinks my horse’s toes are too short. Horse’s old owner says he needs shorter toes to support his tendons, and that my old horse had 1.5 inches taken off her feet, too much toe.

So, I have one person saying my horse’s toes are too short, and the other saying they are just right. The common denominator is my old horse, who had back end issues and was adjusted often, who upon adjusting the angles of her feet, has held well and has been doing great.

This is why I lean with siding with my horse’s former owner’s farrier over my own.

THIS photo honestly is probably the best I have that shows his feet. (sorry he looks so silly…he just got a rinse down. and yes, he is skinny. we are getting there.)

anyways… does anyone have any suggestions about how they would go about this situation? Longer toe, shorter toe, I get a funny feeling about my farrier, and now that i own a horse with more sensitive foot needs, I wonder what I can do to help him be his best. Anyone with some experience with OTTB feet and how they prefer to see the feet would be a great help, as I said I am a novice to horse feet and don’t claim to be an expert, but something doesn’t sit right with me and I want to make the right choice for my horse while his hooves are in such a delicate state of change.

Thanks in Advance!

#2

I am not a farrier.

From the photo, I wouldn’t say the toes are too short.

They look better than I was expecting for an OTTB. But I disagree that they are “too short”. The toe looks a bit long to me.

#3

Not an expert, but I don’t see “too short” in that picture. Honestly, I have rarely seen toes that are too short - even on COTH. Usually just the opposite.

You need to be able to trust your farrier. Do other people use him? Like him? What did your vet think of your old horse’s feet? What about this horse?

#4

[QUOTE=S1969;8125798]
Not an expert, but I don’t see “too short” in that picture. Honestly, I have rarely seen toes that are too short - even on COTH. Usually just the opposite.

You need to be able to trust your farrier. Do other people use him? Like him? What did your vet think of your old horse’s feet? What about this horse?[/QUOTE]

Most of the farm uses him, with the exception of a few who came from elsewhere and had already been with a different farrier. Vet thought my old horse’s feet were alright, and vet said (the brief little bit she has seen him) that the new guys feet will ‘get there’ as the nail holes grow out (the nail holes and evidence of such will be gone by next go round).

It seems that this farrier likes long toes, according to the ‘others’ in the area that I have asked. My old horse was due when we traded, so she was slightly overdue when she was done, and had naturally resiliant and tough feet. She grew hair like nobodys business, so she just naturally had great feet and hair, which would account for the length on her feet. But the fact remains that two different people noticed she moved out MUCH better after her feet were trimmed back. So that leads me to believe that my farrier might turn my horse down this path too and we get too long a toe. However, i suppose it’s probably harmless to go another cycle and see what he says then, if I understand correctly the toe being long is easier to fix than a toe too short. I didn’t think my guy’s toe was overly short, either. I actually thought it could use a trim, and apparently the farrier ‘barely took any off’ because it was ‘so short’

I thought I trusted him but now I am second guessing. Everyone likes him, I hate confrontation, and I don’t WANT to break up with my farrier, I just also don’t want to wreak havoc on my new horse’s feet.

#5

I agree with SFH, he actually looks like he has a great deal of toe for a barefoot horse, not too short at all :slight_smile:

#6

I see a little dishing in the LF and probably a little long toe/low heel (LTLH) situation going on. The RF doesn’t seem to have that, and appears to be a bit more upright - a very common mismatch scenario. That in and of itself isn’t an issue.

Beyond that, it’s not fair to judge, and even that ^ is just “this is what the picture makes it look like”.

Many, many people used to only seeing shod feet, and particularly those who live in areas where no farrier can seem to grasp the concept of “trim the feet!!” and therefore constantly leave too much foot, look at properly, or even close, trimmed bare feet and think they are too short.

An angle from which this picture was taken serves to visually shorten a foot. Visually these do not look short, so are probably even a bit longer in real life.

1.5" taken off your old horse I call BS :wink: Seriously - measure that out. Most people really stink at looking at a distance/weight/height and coming even close.

#7

It’s pretty much impossible to tell with that picture (ground level lateral views and sole views would help a great deal) but I would say the toes aren’t too short. I very rarely see short toes, it’s usually long toe/underrun heel. Farriers tend to leave feet too long.

#8

I don’t think his hooves look too bad, but not like he has short toes!

The only time I would say that is there is one farrier here who seems to make every horse he touches extremely high in the heels and the angles get very wonky. It’s very strange looking, and it’s not actually toes too short, but heels too long - the horses are more on their walls and very odd looking.

#9

Not too short to my eye, but the photo is such that it’s hard to make a call.

One thing that may apply or not: I used a farrier who had done race horses her entire carrier–she trimmed my horses longer than normal, I assume because she was afraid of getting them too short since they were all barefoot, and thought they needed more hoof.

An inch and a half off your former horses?!? Off the front, off the bottom, or all together?

#10

[QUOTE=One Two Three;8125723]
So a little back story: I recently acquired an OTTB who last raced Feb 27th. He had his shoes pulled at that time, and has been barefoot since. Sore for a couple weeks, but by the end of his 30 day let down (with the lady who pulled him off the track) he was sound and comfortable. Feet needed to do some growing, changing, and adjusting to the barefoot life, but overall were pretty good feet considering he had worn shoes for the last 5 years (he is 7).

Fast forward to today, and my farrier says he has water damaged hooves, and mild white line disease. I didn’t freak out because I can handle the RX which was white lightning gel. However, the whole situation with this horse was a trade deal and the lady who now has my old horse, was this horse’s owner and the one who pulled him off the track. She had commented on how her and her farrier were not impressed with my old horse’s angles. She was way off and uneven. I am a complete foot novice, so I had complete trust in my farrier with that horse, just as I had hoped to have trust in him for this horse. However after hearing not only from her, but from my horse’s body worker that my old horse was holding her adjustments great and looked amazing, I have decided to rethink my farrier.

He thinks my horse’s toes are too short. Horse’s old owner says he needs shorter toes to support his tendons, and that my old horse had 1.5 inches taken off her feet, too much toe.

So, I have one person saying my horse’s toes are too short, and the other saying they are just right. The common denominator is my old horse, who had back end issues and was adjusted often, who upon adjusting the angles of her feet, has held well and has been doing great.

This is why I lean with siding with my horse’s former owner’s farrier over my own.

THIS photo honestly is probably the best I have that shows his feet. (sorry he looks so silly…he just got a rinse down. and yes, he is skinny. we are getting there.)

anyways… does anyone have any suggestions about how they would go about this situation? Longer toe, shorter toe, I get a funny feeling about my farrier, and now that i own a horse with more sensitive foot needs, I wonder what I can do to help him be his best. Anyone with some experience with OTTB feet and how they prefer to see the feet would be a great help, as I said I am a novice to horse feet and don’t claim to be an expert, but something doesn’t sit right with me and I want to make the right choice for my horse while his hooves are in such a delicate state of change.

Thanks in Advance![/QUOTE]

I’m still stuck on the 1.5 inches taken off of your old horse. Really??? I don’t think I have ever seen my farrier take off more than 1/2" – probably more like 1/4" – at one time. Now I confess I am no hoof expert, but one and a half inches?? Am I wrong or is that a lot?

The photo of your current horse’s feet look normal to me but I think you should get another farrier out for a second opinion. It would be worth it, I think.

#11

“I see a little dishing in the LF and probably a little long toe/low heel (LTLH) situation going on. The RF doesn’t seem to have that, and appears to be a bit more upright - a very common mismatch scenario.”

+1

Very, very cute boy, even with the mask.

#12

Wait. How did he get so thin? Did the previous owner send him to you much thinner than this? The same person who is advising you now?

#13

^ he last raced February 27.
Before coming to Coth, I thought race horses were underfed but learned differently from Coth posters.

#14

When I get a new horse, I x-ray their feet. It is the best way to know if the angles and toe length are good, and helps the farrier.

I also like to have the x-rays just in case something comes up in the future.

#15

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;8125995]
I’m still stuck on the 1.5 inches taken off of your old horse. Really??? I don’t think I have ever seen my farrier take off more than 1/2" – probably more like 1/4" – at one time. Now I confess I am no hoof expert, but one and a half inches?? Am I wrong or is that a lot?

The photo of your current horse’s feet look normal to me but I think you should get another farrier out for a second opinion. It would be worth it, I think.[/QUOTE]

The 1.5 inches is measured from heel bulb to the toe on a straight line on the ground. Not 1.5 inches vertical. Removing height does not correct the toe length which must be addressed in the horizontal plane.

When people say the toe needs to be shorter, they are talking about the horizontal measurement, not cutting the toe off from the bottom.

OP, when you look at a horse’s feet, a correct foot, will have the same angle at the front of the hoof as the front of the pastern. There is a slight out bulge for the cornet, but it should otherwise be straight as a general guideline. There are certain conditions where the farrier knows by radiographs that horse needs a steeper angle of the hoof than the pastern, but there is almost no reason for a “broken back angle” like your horse has now.

Take a look at the illustration on this page. It shows a long toe like your horse appears have already well developed in gray, and the red lines where the foot needs to be to align with the pastern (ideally determined by xray). http://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/385-about-backing-up-that-toe
Also see the two photos at the bottom of a long toe and the corrected foot.

Check out this video about measuring the distance the toe should be: https://youtu.be/Vv9ctc2U2QI?t=1m19s

This article has a great picture of long toe/ broken angle/ underrun heels. http://www.equipodiatry.com/long_toe_underrun.html

before and after corrected:
http://stantonfarrierservices.com/gallery/long-toeunderrun-heel-correction

No pictures, but great article:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13425/underrun-heels-not-so-innocent

This foot is the goal (look at the angles of the hoof wall to the pastern (they match) AND the heel and front hoof angle match) Notice this gives the look of a “short toe”, but was not accomplished by shorting the toe from the bottom:
http://blog.smartpakequine.com/2013/02/year-in-the-life-of-a-hoof/

Notice the bone angles on the top hoof. There is a clear break in the line between the pastern and the coffin bone. Notice how this is also seen in the external angles and the heel angle is much steeper than the front angle. http://www.eponashoe.com/images/CaseStudies/Case2_BefAft.jpg

#16

[QUOTE=flyracing;8126279]
The 1.5 inches is measured from heel bulb to the toe on a straight line on the ground. Not 1.5 inches vertical. [/QUOTE]
Maybe that’s how it’s supposed to be measured? I’ve never heard a farrier/trimmer refer to it that way though. Maybe it’s a regional/school thing? What significance does it have? It seems to be too generic without a lot more context :confused:

The way the OP said this makes it sound like there was so much gawd-awful foot there that just a ton was taken off. 1.5" measured horizontally says nothing about how much foot there was. Could have been 1/4", 1//2". A horse due for a normal trim could have that much “length” removed, just as a horse with hugely tall heels from founder.

Removing height does not correct the toe length which must be addressed in the horizontal plane.

Agree that toe length is largely in the horizontal direction, but there is also a vertical component :slight_smile: Farriers who never remove any sole and only ever trim to the level of dead sole end up with false sole, or just lots of normal sole, and a lot of vertical toe height as well as horizontal length

http://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/385-about-backing-up-that-toe

Q: When does a toe need to be backed up?
A: Probably not as often as it gets done.

I don’t get that answer at all :confused: A very common problem is long toes (run forward) that are not backed either as much as they should be, or as often. I have absolutely no idea who Chris Gregory is but most of his answers seem…odd :confused:

#17

He only came off the track 2 months ago. I think he looks pretty good, and the OP is working on putting weight on him. 2 months is not really a lot of time to see a huge difference in weight gain on a horse who probably needed a few weeks to cleanse the system from all that rocket fuel grain he was probably being fed.

#18

Thanks everyone for the input. I know the picture isn’t the best, it wasn’t taken specifically for his feet, and just happened to be the best thing I had to show his feet at this time. I have no idea if the lady was embellishing, or what the deal was with my old horse having 1.5 inches removed. I wasn’t there, and just took it for what it was when she told me yesterday. Since one of the other farriers comes out a week or so ahead of when my current one is due to come back out, I think I’ll have him take a peek at Max’s feet and get a second opinion on what is going on.

As for the ‘skinny’ comment, as someone else pointed out, he last raced February 27th, which, as of yesterday, was exactly 2 months ago. He had 30 days of let down, and has been so mild mannered and quiet that I re-started him just after getting him, just past the 30 day mark. It’s a struggle getting the calories into him, because he won’t eat ANYTHING soaked or wet, has free choice hay but doesn’t finish a net full but every other day, and is already eating an exuberant amount of grain. But he IS getting better, not worse, just slowly.
Haha, I don’t seem to have a good body picture of him not looking goofy, but THIS is the best representation of his body condition at this point. The previous picture is about 2 weeks old now.

Anyhow, so everyone seems to agree that he isn’t too short, and I agree. He has the mild white line, and the farrier told me to get white lightning gel to treat. Anything else I should throw in the cart before I hit order on that? I’d be looking for a hoof treatment to possibly help prevent that from happening again. According to the BO who was the one there to hold my guy for the farrier, he said that the white line is from prolonged exposure to water. Would something like Tuff Stuff hoof hardener help? He is turned out at night, so he is in dewy grass for most of the nearly 12 hours he’s out at night.

#19

Different topic but, given your discussion of his eating habits, and the fact that he just came off the track, he might very well have ulcers. You should consider treating him for ulcers and see if that improves his appetite.

Cute horse.

#20

Regarding photo…when was the last time he was trimmed? In other words, how old is this trim and who did it (previous owner’s farrier)? …sharon

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