Expert opinion and the opinion of the helmet manufacturers is not “zero evidence.”
Plenty of people don’t have a choice, that’s what I’m telling you. I didn’t when I didn’t own my own horse and was riding at a trainers barn. Thankfully my hair has always been very fine so it didn’t effect me but if I had thick or ethnic hair I would’ve been able to participate in the sport. Do you ge that? Does that not seem messed up?
There’s also never been a study on how driving a high speed race car with only your pinky toes is dangerous but experts will still tell you that it’s dangerous and you shouldn’t do it.
As they say, Opinions are a lot like…
Everyone has one. Throughout time there have been a lot of expert opinions that were later found to be incorrect. It happens. But I’m also a ‘show me the evidence’ sort of gal.
Those people do have a choice. They can choose to ride elsewhere, for one, which is what I would do if someone told me how I had to have my hair. But making two wrongs doesn’t make a right. Banning having hair up doesn’t make this situation better; it just seesaws it the other way.
As I have said, don’t shame people for what they do with their hair. It’s a pretty simple concept. It’s messed up to shame anyone for any way they want to wear their hair.
Lastly, there is a difference between common sense and topics that actually need research. The effect of hair style on helmet effectiveness is definitely a topic that needs research. Because we might find we really should all shave our heads. Or we might find there’s very little difference so long as the helmet is tight on the head. But right now we just don’t know, and it’s just speculation, expert or otherwise, to say definitively one way or another.
That’s a privilege not everyone has. Today I have a car, a job, money, and my own horse so I could easily just take my business elsewhere if someone told me I had to do that ridiculous hair stuffing thing. When I was a kid and was a working student, the barn I was at was my only opportunity to ride because I did not have a job, a car, money, etc so I had to ride at the place that was walking distance from my house. Kids in IEA/ IHSA also don’t necessarily have the privilege to just go elsewhere because their coach is typically tied to their school.
What’s so freaking bad about your hair out of your helmet?! Seriously? If there’s anything even a teeny tiny itty bitty chance it’s both safer AND more inclusive shouldn’t we just do it?
I would argue that this is common sense. Wearing a helmet 2 or 3 sizes too big to accommodate your pony tail is dumb as hell. It’s just so normalized in the American hunter/ jumper world that people don’t realize how stupid it is.
That’s not reasonable. Wearing your hair outside your helmet IS reasonable.
@gardenie, At what point in either article was race mentioned? Did you conduct a literature search of your own to determine your claim more work to be done?
Given that I did the “lit search” in 5 minutes, it is clear that research involving hair and helmets is done and shows the detrimental effect of hair on helmet efficacy. At no point did I claim it was exhaustive or complete.
The use of a “bald” helmet form allows uniform data collection of helmet data given that once hair is involved, no matter what the helmet ceases to provide equivalent protection. And since hair and hair styles reduce efficacy with a high variation it is pointless to attempt equivalent comparisons.
Riding horses is a privilege in itself. And just because you have experienced something doesn’t mean it’s industry wide. I’m sorry that you experienced someone controlling you and criticizing you for your hair.
And what is so bad about just leaving people alone to make their own choices on what is best for them? Because that would be the most inclusive option.
If your helmet is properly fitting you, and you’ve fitted it to your hair, it’s not two sizes too big. You should, no matter how you put your hair, be able to put your helmet on and vigorously shake your head and it shouldn’t move. If it does, your helmet doesn’t fit.
I just don’t understand why everyone is so paranoid over what OTHER people do with their hair. Put it up. Leave it down. Does it effect you? Nope. You do you. Stop trying to scare people into doing one way or another when we don’t have any evidence to support either side.
What is your point? It doesn’t happen to everyone therefore it’s not a problem? Are you one of those people that only ever think something is a problem if it effects you?
Because plenty of minors do not have the choice because they are trying to fit in with this stupid hair stuffing helmet thing. I see so many kids at horse shows with their helmet sitting on top of their head like a bonnet because they are trying to stuff all their hair into it.
It’s also unfair to those that cannot stuff their hair into a helmet because their hair is ethnic or thick. Their choices are either look totally different than every other rider, cut their hair off, wear a helmet that doesn’t fit, or just find another sport. That’s unfair.
I don’t judge anyone for how they wear their hair because I totally get not wanting to stand out and I rode with my hair stuffed into my helmet for years. I just think it’s on the governing bodies to protect the riders and outlaw this stupid trend. That’s their job, they make rules to protect horse and rider safety all the time. They could make a rule that says effective in 2024, no more stuffing your hair into your helmet. It wouldn’t hurt ANYONE. There would literally be no downside.
[quote=“Equkelly, post:127, topic:760901, full:true”]…
I just think it’s on the governing bodies to protect the riders and outlaw this stupid trend. That’s their job, they make rules to protect horse and rider safety all the time. They could make a rule that says effective in 2024, no more stuffing your hair into your helmet. It wouldn’t hurt ANYONE. There would literally be no downside.
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You’ve taken what I’ve said and tried to twist it to what you want it to be.
I’ve said it a bunch of times, but I guess I’ll say it again; no one should be shamed for how they want to wear their hair.
Make a rule that judges can’t penalize riders for how they wear their hair. But don’t make a rule outlawing something because you happen to not like it. That’s not helping anyone. Because there is a downside; anyone who feels more comfortable with their hair up couldn’t do that anymore. Banning something doesn’t promote inclusivity.
I also see riders riding at shows with their chin straps so loose they could take their helmet off without unbuckling it. That’s a serious safety hazard, but we aren’t seeing anyone get up in arms over that.
Cool. That’s a nice thought for fantasy land but we don’t live there. And kids aren’t being “shamed” into wearing their helmet a certain way, their trainers are literally telling them “this is how you have to wear your hair.” If it was really a simple choice of “just wear your helmet however you feel like then we’d see more riders wearing their natural hair outside their helmet but we don’t.
That won’t help. Judges already aren’t supposed to penalize riders for their hair outside of their helmet and if riders really felt safe to do it, more would.
I happen to not like it because it’s non inclusive, sexist, and unsafe. Those are all plenty valid reasons to put a foot down and make a rule.
Sure it does. Their are literally laws banning hair discrimination in the name of inclusivity.
Yes we are, there’s rules that your chin strap has to be a certain length and you could absolutely be disqualified if your chin strap is too loose or unbuckled.
Honestly, why do you care so much about this stupid style? Is this what happens from years of cramming your head into your helmet? I’m beginning to think inclusiveness and safety are just things you don’t really care about. Which ok, that’s fine for you to think but some of us would like to protect our sport and our fellow athletes.
I wanted to follow up and add that ANYTHING under the helmet that produces an unnecessary/avoidable gap between your scalp and the helmet is unsafe. Chunky clips, beads, hair wraps, and thick braids. Solid objects like clips, beads, combs, or plastic headbands can shatter against your head or get smashed into your skin. This has nothing to do with race. I could put my hair in thick dutch braids and that would be a bad idea under my helmet (I’m white). For the same reason I do not use metal or plastic clips either.
How is the hunter hair style sexist? Are men not free to grow their hair and put it up in their helmets if they prefer to do it that way?
[quote=“Equkelly, post:130, topic:760901”] Yes we are, there’s rules that your chin strap has to be a certain length and you could absolutely be disqualified if your chin strap is too loose or unbuckled.
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Where is the rule about the length of the chinstrap?
I’m with StormyDay here - I just don’t see any evidence that hair up at shows is as horrifyingly dangerous as some people are claiming it is based on an almost lifetime of observation at horse shows and reading COTH magazine - surely in more than 40 years there would be articles written about all these hunter riders who died or are suffering from TBIs from falls while their hair was up in their helmets? Aside from people with freakishly thick hair (who are free to NOT wear their hair in their helmets, along with anyone else regardless of hair thickness), it really doesn’t seem like it’s a problem.
I’m on Team Mind Your Own Business/Live And Let Live.
‘But think of the children!’
Parents are responsible for their child’s well being. Parents who feel that hair inside of a helmet is dangerous should tell the trainer that won’t be happening, thanks. This is a blindly following a trainer problem rather than a safety issue. It’s an issue that happens not just with helmets. It happens with overly tight martingales, lunging the crap out of horses, drugging ‘because they never test the smalls anyways’, etc. It’s a grow a backbone problem, not a safety issue.
There are bad judges out there, it happens. They aren’t supposed to penalize horses and riders for a lot of things that they do. But it doesn’t mean that a few bad apples don’t fall in.
I can tell you that when you are judging 10 horses in an arena where the majority of the time they are several hundred feet away from you, it’s pretty hard to tell that rider A has wisps of hair sticking out of her net and rider B has a tight bun behind her helmet. And riders can, and do show with their hair in a bun and aren’t penalized for it.
That’s banning discrimination, which, by your own words, they have already done. It’s not banning a hair style just because you don’t like it.
Please link the part where you can be disqualified for a loose chin strap.
Why do you care so much about making everyone keep their hair as you do? It doesn’t effect you if I wear my hair up or down.
There’s no evidence it’s unsafe. Banning people from wearing their hair one way or another isn’t the way to inclusiveness. And its a pretty far stretch to call it sexist.
@StormyDay, actually there is lots of evidence that it is unsafe. Did they study hunters specifically? No. But if you want to claim hunters are impervious to TBIs, then you are claiming that the hunters are not a sport nor any athletic endeavor requiring safety devices.
Anyway, again, several epidemiological studies as well as insurance industry analyses show that helmets greatly reduce the risk of TBI and death. Thus, it follows, a correctly fitting helmet with a properly fastened chin strap as designed and tested by the manufactures will reduce the risk to its best determined lowest risk.
The FEI regularly tracks this data as part of their safety efforts. Of course they don’t track hunters because it really isn’t an equestrian sport.
Oh, and under General Rule 801.2:
It is compulsory for all persons at Federation licensed hunter, jumper, or hunter/jumper competitions when mounted anywhere on the competition grounds, **to wear properly fastened protective headgear which meets or exceeds ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials)/SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) standards for equestrian use and carries the SEI tag. It must be properly fitted with harness secured. Exception: In Hunter or Jumper classes, adults may be allowed to remove their headgear while accepting prizes and during the playing of the National Anthem only; they must refasten their headgear prior to the lap of honor. It is compulsory for riders in Paso Fino classes, both open and breed restricted including Hunter Hack, where jumping is required and when jumping anywhere on the competition grounds to wear properly fastened protective headgear which meets or exceeds ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials)/SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) standards for equestrian use and carries the SEI tag. It must be properly fitted with harness secured. A Show Committee, Competition Management, and Licensed Officials must bar riders without protective headgear from entering the ring for classes in which protective headgear is required and may bar any entry or person from entering the ring if not suitably presented to appear before an audience."
PROPERLY means as intended by the manufacturer, thus tight agains the chin and not loose and hanging.
“Limitations of the work include the age of the heads (only elderly subjects in this study), the type of hair (Caucasian straight hair)…”
Really? We should just ignore all these other variables that are actually relevant to real world effects of the products we are studying because they vary too much?
You asked where race was mentioned in any of the articles you cited and I pointed out where it was specifically mentioned in the Trotta et al. paper. The IRCOBI paper doesn’t specifically mention race, so I admit that I had to draw my own conclusion that the human hair wig with straight light brown hair shown in the article was Caucasian hair.
Yes, variables are often neglected in initial analyses to simplify a problem. And then as the science moves on, more and more variable are added to the analyses.
My “position” is that more studies on the effect of hair and hairstyles on the efficacy of helmets would be useful as would the consideration of more realistic physical characteristics of people who wear helmets in the design and testing. I’m sorry that you think that is controversial and that helmet testing and design should not advance to consider additional variables.
And speaking of fallacies, I just want to point out that the “Appeal to authority” fallacy seems to make an appearance quite regularly when anyone dares question any of your statements.
Funny that would be me. Thus, you and stormy are making logical jumps in terms of hair versus ethnicity.
And, yes, I do the appeal to authority. I have spent years looking into equestrian safety as well as being a scientist and engineer. I spend hours every day reading the literature and understanding biomechanics. You also don’t see me arguing training methods for hunter horses or what is the best blanket for Virginia this time of the year, how to best treat cushings or to build an indoor arena. I let those more knowledgable respond in those cases.
Thus, I feel I have unique expertise that a majority of horse folks don’t have when it comes to safety equipment and their functions. Given I am a member of ASTM and ISO, I am happy to provide a list of contributions to eventing safety as well as discussions I have had with various equestrian safety device manufacturers, including Charles Owens, P2, Troxel,…
The only thing I think is controversial here is that you and others make claims that the hair up has no effect on safety when the facts and data indicate otherwise.
