Hair out of helmet in Hunter Ring

[Gardenhorse]

I am glad you are an expert. However, it would be nice if you could also have a less dismissive attitude toward other people when they ask questions or point out discrepancies. I have stated that I think it would be useful to look at factors on helmet efficacy such as hair type, including hair other than Caucasian hair. You immediately questioned where Caucasian was mentioned in the articles that you cited. When I pointed out one place where the authors explicitly mentioned that the use of Caucasian hair was a limitation of their study, you didn’t even acknowledge that but just pointed that the other article didn’t refer to hair type. When I pointed out that study used a wig of straight brown hair that certainly appeared Caucasian, you again didn’t acknowledge the point but focused on the color of the hair when obviously it is hair texture/thickness that would be an important factor. When I questioned your statement that hair type was too variable to be considered in comparative evaluations, you accused me of logical fallacies.

So, yes, you may be an expert, but the way that you engage in the discussion doesn’t really inspire me to blindly trust everything you say.

I have never said that hair up has no effect on safety. I have simply pointed out that the studies you have cited in this discussion do not actually address the issue of hair up at all. I have also said that I think there would be value in doing studies with more real world conditions related to hair types. But since there is no point in trying to have a discussion with you, I will stop attempting it.

[Equkelly]

@RND

How is the hunter hair style sexist? Are men not free to grow their hair and put it up in their helmets if they prefer to do it that way?

Because it requires you to erase your femininity and hide it in your helmet. It’s not enough to have a low pony tail, braid, or bun…no no no. You can’t show that you have hair. Better cram it in your helmet so we don’t have to see it.

@RND

Aside from people with freakishly thick hair (who are free to NOT wear their hair in their helmets, along with anyone else regardless of hair thickness), it really doesn’t seem like it’s a problem.

If kids or are even adults are tempted to wear a helmet that doesn’t fit just so they can blend in, that’s a huge problem. I don’t care if it only affects 5% of riders. Nobody should be compromising their safety for aesthetics and that is correctly happening.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RAyers

And, yes, I do the appeal to authority. I have spent years looking into equestrian safety as well as being a scientist and engineer. I spend hours every day reading the literature and understanding biomechanics. You also don’t see me arguing training methods for hunter horses or what is the best blanket for Virginia this time of the year, how to best treat cushings or to build an indoor arena. I let those more knowledgable respond in those cases.

Thus, I feel I have unique expertise that a majority of horse folks don’t have when it comes to safety equipment and their functions. Given I am a member of ASTM and ISO, I am happy to provide a list of contributions to eventing safety as well as discussions I have had with various equestrian safety device manufacturers, including Charles Owens, P2, Troxel,…

Just FYI, some of us are aware of your background, and really appreciate it when you weigh in on various threads and speak about a variety of safety issues, and provide detailed support concerning your opinions.

Carry on!

[Equkelly]

@StormyDay

‘But think of the children!’
Parents are responsible for their child’s well being.

Again. Check your privilege. Not every kid has loving, supportive, or involved parents: guardians that will give a damn about their safety.

@StormyDay

There are bad judges out there, it happens. They aren’t supposed to penalize horses and riders for a lot of things that they do. But it doesn’t mean that a few bad apples don’t fall in.

Right. Glad you’re starting to see the issue and why everyone is unofficially forced to cram their hair in their helmet.

@StormyDay

I can tell you that when you are judging 10 horses in an arena where the majority of the time they are several hundred feet away from you, it’s pretty hard to tell that rider A has wisps of hair sticking out of her net and rider B has a tight bun behind her helmet. And riders can, and do show with their hair in a bun and aren’t penalized for it.

No it’s not.

@StormyDay

That’s banning discrimination, which, by your own words, they have already done. It’s not banning a hair style just because you don’t like it.

Lol. No.

[Scribbler]

General comment.

As someone with no connection to hunters, the hair up in the helmet thing has always struck me as ugly and potentially unsafe based on what I’ve read about helmet function. Aldo hunters, as the sport of choice for tween girls, seems to run on a lot of middle school level anxieties about brands and getting marked down for frivolous things. I’m sure some coaches in the scene perpetuate these anxieties.

The question about very thick black hair in the helmet is an interesting one. I have one friend with this kind of hair, and she rides dressage with a kerchief under her helmet, and a bun or something at her nape. I think actually her hair compresses a lot.

I would say off the bat that braids, beads, or feathers under the helmet are going to be safety risk. But there are many black athletes in sports that require helmets such as football, so I’m sure there has been some thought given to this. I feel like I’ve seen photos of football players with box braids??

Certainly the issue of whether thicker or puffier hair reduces helmet effectiveness, and if so what helmet design features could mitigate that, would be a question across sports disciplines in including cycling, motor sports, hockey, etc. I realize equestrian helmets are built for different impacts but the basic issue of fit and protection is the same.

So I think the hair in helmet hunter thing is silly and outdated, and I think we should look around to other sports for suggestions on whether helmets in general work on thicker hair. I mean, there might not be lots of young black women in the hunter ring, but there are lots of black people generally in sport, highly represented in football.

[oreo_mom]

A tasteful bun looks very elegant. Hunters are a traditional sport. Don’t like it? Go ride Western and get those sequins!
Don’t wear traditional attire and with luck you’ll get a judge who doesn’t care!! Don’t wear a number—see how far that gets you!
Better yet, why participate in a sport you don’t like??
Clearly there must be somewhere else for you!

[RND]

@Equkelly

Because it requires you to erase your femininity and hide it in your helmet. It’s not enough to have a low pony tail, braid, or bun…no no no. You can’t show that you have hair. Better cram it in your helmet so we don’t have to see it.

I notice you did not answer my question about where the rule describing acceptable chin strap length resides.

[Gardenhorse]

I’m certainly not advocating for hair up in helmets. I personally think it is a pointless, outdated tradition, like many things in horses. But it is interesting because the whole point of the MIPS feature is to add more “slippage” to reduce rotational forces and many of the arguments against putting hair up in helmets are about the fact that its more slippery. So I would actually be interested to see these studies that show hair up in helmets is less safe, but none of them have been cited here to date. I did a very quick search and couldn’t find anything relevant but should try again with different search terms.

I also think it’s quite interesting that the standard design/testing of helmets doesn’t seem to consider hair at all and that researchers appear to be just starting studies that do look at those factors. The conference paper cited above was actually looking at football helmets and they even mention dreadlocks in the introduction, but the wig they used for their tests was straight/smooth hair that appeared Caucasian to me. So, I’m not actually sure that other sports are any farther along in looking at these issues. Although that conference paper was from 2018 so there could be more recent studies.

[Equkelly]

@RND

I notice you did not answer my question about where the rule describing acceptable chin strap length resides.

Yea because @RAyers already answered that.

[StormyDay]

@RAyers

@StormyDay, actually there is lots of evidence that it is unsafe. Did they study hunters specifically? No. But if you want to claim hunters are impervious to TBIs, then you are claiming that the hunters are not a sport nor any athletic endeavor requiring safety devices.

Anyway, again, several epidemiological studies as well as insurance industry analyses show that helmets greatly reduce the risk of TBI and death. Thus, it follows, a correctly fitting helmet with a properly fastened chin strap as designed and tested by the manufactures will reduce the risk to its best determined lowest risk.

The FEI regularly tracks this data as part of their safety efforts. Of course they don’t track hunters because it really isn’t an equestrian sport.

Oh, and under General Rule 801.2:

1. It is compulsory for all persons at Federation licensed hunter, jumper, or hunter/jumper competitions when mounted anywhere on the competition grounds, **to wear properly fastened protective headgear which meets or exceeds ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials)/SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) standards for equestrian use and carries the SEI tag. It must be properly fitted with harness secured. Exception: In Hunter or Jumper classes, adults may be allowed to remove their headgear while accepting prizes and during the playing of the National Anthem only; they must refasten their headgear prior to the lap of honor. It is compulsory for riders in Paso Fino classes, both open and breed restricted including Hunter Hack, where jumping is required and when jumping anywhere on the competition grounds to wear properly fastened protective headgear which meets or exceeds ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials)/SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) standards for equestrian use and carries the SEI tag. It must be properly fitted with harness secured. A Show Committee, Competition Management, and Licensed Officials must bar riders without protective headgear from entering the ring for classes in which protective headgear is required and may bar any entry or person from entering the ring if not suitably presented to appear before an audience."

PROPERLY means as intended by the manufacturer, thus tight agains the chin and not loose and hanging.

When have I ever claimed hunters are impervious to TBI’s?
I just can’t find any actual evidence that hair up vs hair down has any effect on how effective a helmet is at preventing TBI’s.

And yes, I agree helmets do prevent injury and death. I don’t think anyone has argued that point.

Properly fitted is so vague. Look through photos of top hunter riders; you will see Helmets with their chin straps so loose I could put my whole fist in there. But, that’s completely off the topic of hair.

Wait, did you just say hunters isn’t an equestrian sport? Have I been doing this wrong? Are we supposed to ride stick horses?

[RND]

@Equkelly

Yea because @RAyers already answered that.

No, RAyers copied the part of the USEF rulebook that says helmets must be properly fitted with harness secured. You stated there is a rule about chin strap length, and I am asking you where that rule is documented. If the rule doesn’t exist, just say so. No one is perfect.

[StormyDay]

@Equkelly

@RND

How is the hunter hair style sexist? Are men not free to grow their hair and put it up in their helmets if they prefer to do it that way?

Because it requires you to erase your femininity and hide it in your helmet. It’s not enough to have a low pony tail, braid, or bun…no no no. You can’t show that you have hair. Better cram it in your helmet so we don’t have to see it.

@RND

Aside from people with freakishly thick hair (who are free to NOT wear their hair in their helmets, along with anyone else regardless of hair thickness), it really doesn’t seem like it’s a problem.

If kids or are even adults are tempted to wear a helmet that doesn’t fit just so they can blend in, that’s a huge problem. I don’t care if it only affects 5% of riders. Nobody should be compromising their safety for aesthetics and that is correctly happening.

Erase our femininity? Really?
Maybe that’s why I keep loosing, my boobs are too big! I’m too feminine.
Back when hunting was out in a field, with hounds, having your hair flapping behind you was a hazard. That’s why we do it. Not because someone decided women should try to look like men.

Except they aren’t compromising their safety.
Just because you think something is true, doesn’t mean it is. And in this case, there aren’t any facts to put behind your statements.

[StormyDay]

@Equkelly

@StormyDay

‘But think of the children!’
Parents are responsible for their child’s well being.

Again. Check your privilege. Not every kid has loving, supportive, or involved parents: guardians that will give a damn about their safety.

@StormyDay

There are bad judges out there, it happens. They aren’t supposed to penalize horses and riders for a lot of things that they do. But it doesn’t mean that a few bad apples don’t fall in.

Right. Glad you’re starting to see the issue and why everyone is unofficially forced to cram their hair in their helmet.

@StormyDay

I can tell you that when you are judging 10 horses in an arena where the majority of the time they are several hundred feet away from you, it’s pretty hard to tell that rider A has wisps of hair sticking out of her net and rider B has a tight bun behind her helmet. And riders can, and do show with their hair in a bun and aren’t penalized for it.

No it’s not.

@StormyDay

That’s banning discrimination, which, by your own words, they have already done. It’s not banning a hair style just because you don’t like it.

Lol. No.

Check my privilege? Riding horses is a privilege. And I seriously doubt there’s that many parents out there who give zero fs about their kid but are shelling out thousands of dollars for riding lessons, shows, etc. What a ridiculous argument.

So are you now saying USEF hasn’t told judges not to place based on hair style? You are contradicting yourself.

[RND]

@RAyers

Here is nice biomechanical test that shows hair significantly affects helmet biomechanics: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325240618_Evaluation_of_the_head-helmet_sliding_properties_in_an_impact_test

There are literally hundreds of tests that prove this point regardless of helmet. The key as many allude to have the best fit with the hair hanging down that enables the most padding to be used.

In the end, as said, a skull cap (doo rag, surgical cap, etc.) or short hair gives you the best protection when wearing any helmet. Hairnets don’t count as they do not fit tightly to the skull as a skull cap would.

I’m not going to pretend to understand most of this, so could you explain what “the presence of hair does reduce the static and dynamic scalp-liner COF.” means?

The conclusion also states “Neither the presence of hair, the frequency of the test, nor the direction of sliding had an effect on the scalp-skull COF.”

How is this study showing that hair significantly affects helmet biomechanics?

Conclusion: “During the test, three main phases were identified: sliding of the scalp over the skull with a low COF (0.06±0.048); tensioning of the scalp; and sliding of the internal liner over the scalp (COF of 0.29±0.07). Neither the presence of hair, the frequency of the test, nor the direction of sliding had an effect on the scalp-skull COF. However, the presence of hair does reduce the static and dynamic scalp-liner COF. The normal load was found to affect the COF, but only at high frequencies. Comparing the head with the artificial headforms, there are two main differences: 1) the headforms do not include a scalp-skull friction and therefore there is no tensioning effect of the skin; 2) the scalp-liner COF (0.29±0.07) is statistical different (p-value 7.61e-31) from the headform-liner COF, in particular the HIII has a very high friction coefficient (0.75±0.06) that is more than twice the scalp-liner COF and the magnesium EN960 has a COF lower than the human head (0.16±0.03).”

You say “There are literally hundreds of tests that prove this point regardless of helmet. The key as many allude to have the best fit with the hair hanging down that enables the most padding to be used.”, but all I see are studies that present data with hair/no hair. Where are the studies showing that how you wear your hair under the helmet makes a difference? Where are the studies that show “a skull cap (doo rag, surgical cap, etc.) or short hair gives you the best protection when wearing any helmet”?

[Equkelly]

@RND

No, RAyers copied the part of the USEF rulebook that says helmets must be properly fitted with harness secured. You stated there is a rule about chin strap length, and I am asking you where that rule is documented. If the rule doesn’t exist, just say so. No one is perfect.

I was also referring to then chin strap length, in that “securely fitted” meant not excessively long to me so I’m my mind usef does have a rule that your chin strap has to actually fit.

@StormyDay

Back when hunting was out in a field, with hounds, having your hair flapping behind you was a hazard. That’s why we do it.

Right and since that’s not what hunters are anymore then there’s no need for that dumb style.

@StormyDay

Check my privilege? Riding horses is a privilege. And I seriously doubt there’s that many parents out there who give zero fs about their kid but are shelling out thousands of dollars for riding lessons, shows, etc. What a ridiculous argument.

Yea. Check your privlege. Seriously. Not every kid is shelling out 1000s of dollars for lessons. Maybe yours did, mine did not. My parents never paid for a dime of my riding.

[Equkelly]

Really beginning to think some of you think this sport should just be for white people with thin hair that can cram it into their helmet. There’s no reason to fight for this trend to stay other than you like the look. If you don’t care about our sport being inclusive and safer, just admit it.

[RND]

@Equkelly

I was also referring to then chin strap length, in that “securely fitted” meant not excessively long to me so I’m my mind usef does have a rule that your chin strap has to actually fit.

No, you said “there’s rules that your chin strap has to be a certain length”; what is that length? If you misspoke, that’s ok. You can admit it.

People are free to do what they want with their hair. Shave it off, cut it short, put it in a ponytail, braid it, cornrow it, put it in the helmet, leave it out - whatever. Me putting my hair in my helmet is not keeping anyone else from leaving theirs out of their helmet. No one here is advocating for a rule that everyone has to put their hair in their helmets. The only one who is trying to dictate what others do with their hair is you.

[Equkelly]

@RND

No, you said “there’s rules that your chin strap has to be a certain length”; what is that length? If you misspoke, that’s ok. You can admit it.

Semantics. But I guess that happens when you don’t have another legitimate argument.

[RND]

@Equkelly

Semantics. But I guess that happens when you don’t have another legitimate argument.

Comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. I get it and I’m done with you here.

[Equkelly]

@RND

Comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. I get it and I’m done with you here.

Personal attacks are another tell tale sign somebody has no solid argument.