Hair out of helmet in Hunter Ring

[RAyers]

@RND First: all you need to do is look at the Refences section to start to see a good cross-section of the helmet studies done. That begins to tell you the amount of research out there. Then you read the references and their included references, building up a list of keywords to then do a literature search using databases such as IEEE and NCIB etc.

Do you tell your mechanic that he doesn’t know what he is talking about when they may say, “Your truck needs new fuel injectors due to a spooling issue?” How is my expertise any more in question?

Second: the conclusion was hair has NO EFFECT on friction between the scalp and hair. In other words, helmet testing done on naked head forms is valid. COF means Coefficient of Friction. COF is actually how helmets work! You need a high COF to hold the helmet in place so the impact forces are dissipated in the liner and not in your brain.

Third: the study found the hair significantly REDUCES COF between the helmet and scalp, meaning that thick mats of hair as what hunters do when tucking their hair up, makes the helmet more likely to slip and the impact forces transferred to the brain.

Nobody noticed that one of the authors on this paper was the CEO of Charles Owens!! Roy Burek was a good engineer and was very devoted to safety and efficacy of the CO product.

[MHM]

@StormyDay

I can tell you that when you are judging 10 horses in an arena where the majority of the time they are several hundred feet away from you, it’s pretty hard to tell that rider A has wisps of hair sticking out of her net and rider B has a tight bun behind her helmet. And riders can, and do show with their hair in a bun and aren’t penalized for it.

Please link the part where you can be disqualified for a loose chin strap.

I don’t feel the need to wade too deeply into this conversation, but I have to ask: Where are you showing hunters in a ring that is so big that they are hundreds of feet away from the judge the majority of the time? Have they started showing hunters out on the big grass field at Spruce Meadows?

Most hunter judges sit somewhere within about 30 feet of the midpoint of the long side of the show ring, so most exhibitors will pass fairly close to them several times whether the class is over jumps or under saddle.

And since someone already quoted the chinstrap rule from the USEF rulebook, I will just add that it does not need to be measured with a tape measure. Like many things, it is at the judge’s discretion to decide whether it is properly adjusted. I have certainly told exhibitors showing in front of me that they need to tighten their chin strap if they do not want to be eliminated. That happened most recently at a USEF horse show within the last month.

[RND]

@RAyers

Do you tell your mechanic that he doesn’t know what he is talking about when they may say, “Your truck needs new fuel injectors due to a spooling issue?” How is my expertise any more in question?

Second: the conclusion was hair has NO EFFECT on friction between the scalp and hair. In other words, helmet testing done on naked head forms is valid. COF means Coefficient of Friction. COF is actually how helmets work! You need a high COF to hold the helmet in place so the impact forces are dissipated in the liner and not in your brain.

Third: the study found the hair significantly REDUCES COF between the helmet and scalp, meaning that thick mats of hair as what hunters do when tucking their hair up, makes the helmet more likely to slip and the impact forces transferred to the brain.

Again, could you explain what “the presence of hair does reduce the static and dynamic scalp-liner COF.” means? Am I correct that scalp-liner means bald head-helmet? What is static COF? Dynamic COF? Is it when the helmet is not moving versus when it is moving on the head of the wearer? What is the significance of this conclusion? I mean, no one who engages in a sport that requires helmets is going to shave his or her head based on any study like this, so what really is the significance of this?

The conclusion also states “Neither the presence of hair, the frequency of the test, nor the direction of sliding had an effect on the scalp-skull COF.” What is scalp-skull COF? Scalp-skull seems to indicate no helmet to me, but the “direction of sliding” is confusing and I don’t understand this test at all. Is this comparing a fall between a bald skull with no helmet and one with hair and no helmet? I’m really confused here.

[RND]

@MHM

I don’t feel the need to wade too deeply into this conversation, but I have to ask: Where are you showing hunters in a ring that is so big that they are hundreds of feet away from the judge the majority of the time? Have they started showing hunters out on the big grass field at Spruce Meadows?

I suspect this is related to the claim that there is a rule dictating the length of the chin strap - people just get caught up in a thread and quickly type things without really thinking about it.

[RAyers]

So, this is why the public needs to trust experts like us. We build the aircraft you fly in, the cars you drive, the medical devices that are used to rebuild your bones when you fall off.

@RND, These studies were done to simply show that hair tucked up under a helmet REDUCES the ability of the helmet to protect the wearer. At no point was there ever and effort to prove folks need to be bald (how a conspiracy theory is born). The LESS hair under a helmet and the better the fit, the better protection. That is the overarching intent.

You ask fair questions that generally are not conceptually easy.

There are three layers between your brain, the skull, the scalp, hair and then the helmet liner. Each has a coefficient of friction that determines if something moves of doesn’t. Take your full tack trunk and set it on carpet. It takes quite a push to make it go (static COF) but once it’s moving (dynamic COF) it is a bit easier.

The scalp and skull COF is how your skin moves over your skull.

The test was to see what contributes most to a helmet losing its effectiveness. One of those is hair tucked under.

When your head impacts the ground a helmet always moves whether you realize it or not. This is due to the off center loads that are alway present. Thus a large part of causing the brain to slosh into your skull is the larger motion imparted if the helmet slides. That is why we want the liner-scalp dynamic COF as high as possible. It allows the imparted force to deform the liner and slow the brain from sloshing.

[StormyDay]

@Equkelly

@RND

No, RAyers copied the part of the USEF rulebook that says helmets must be properly fitted with harness secured. You stated there is a rule about chin strap length, and I am asking you where that rule is documented. If the rule doesn’t exist, just say so. No one is perfect.

I was also referring to then chin strap length, in that “securely fitted” meant not excessively long to me so I’m my mind usef does have a rule that your chin strap has to actually fit.

@StormyDay

Back when hunting was out in a field, with hounds, having your hair flapping behind you was a hazard. That’s why we do it.

Right and since that’s not what hunters are anymore then there’s no need for that dumb style.

@StormyDay

Check my privilege? Riding horses is a privilege. And I seriously doubt there’s that many parents out there who give zero fs about their kid but are shelling out thousands of dollars for riding lessons, shows, etc. What a ridiculous argument.

Yea. Check your privlege. Seriously. Not every kid is shelling out 1000s of dollars for lessons. Maybe yours did, mine did not. My parents never paid for a dime of my riding.

Understanding why something is done is a good idea.
In my neck of the woods, there are many people who show hunters that actually hunt. There are even hunt run horse shows. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it wrong.

If anyone is riding at a USEF sanctioned show, then they have indeed shelled out 1000’s of a dollars in lessons. Heck, they probably shelled out a grand just to be at that show.
So in order for the ‘rule’ you want to have them enact to actually have any sort of control over a rider they would have to pay the big bucks to be riding there.

None of this effects the backyard rider. Or the fun show rider. No trainer is telling students to put their hair into their helmets to get on dobbin for the walk trot lesson.

[RND]

@RAyers

So, this is why the public needs to trust experts like us. We build the aircraft you fly in, the cars you drive, the medical devices that are used to rebuild your bones when you fall off.

@RND, These studies were done to simply show that hair tucked up under a helmet REDUCES the ability of the helmet to protect the wearer. At no point was there ever and effort to prove folks need to be bald (how a conspiracy theory is born). The LESS hair under a helmet and the better the fit, the better protection. That is the overarching intent.

You ask fair questions that generally are not conceptually easy.

There are three layers between your brain, the skull, the scalp, hair and then the helmet liner. Each has a coefficient of friction that determines if something moves of doesn’t. Take your full tack trunk and set it on carpet. It takes quite a push to make it go (static COF) but once it’s moving (dynamic COF) it is a bit easier.

The scalp and skull COF is how your skin moves over your skull.

The test was to see what contributes most to a helmet losing its effectiveness. One of those is hair tucked under.

When your head impacts the ground a helmet always moves whether you realize it or not. This is due to the off center loads that are alway present. Thus a large part of causing the brain to slosh into your skull is the larger motion imparted if the helmet slides. That is why we want the liner-scalp dynamic COF as high as possible. It allows the imparted force to deform the liner and slow the brain from sloshing.

But WHICH studies show that hair tucked under a helmet REDUCES the ability of the helmet to protect the wearer? Where in the study that you linked states that? As far as I can tell (and please do correct me if I’m wrong), you have provided links to studies that show data for hair vs no hair. I have not seen any data from your links that show a difference in safety for the AMOUNT of hair, or HOW that hair is placed, under a helmet.

As soon as an expert says “the problem is that you don’t believe me; just stop asking questions and trust me”, that is a huge red flag. A true expert will take the time to answer questions honestly. This mindset is how we now have to deal with QAnon followers and anti-vaxxers.

[StormyDay]

@MHM

@StormyDay

I can tell you that when you are judging 10 horses in an arena where the majority of the time they are several hundred feet away from you, it’s pretty hard to tell that rider A has wisps of hair sticking out of her net and rider B has a tight bun behind her helmet. And riders can, and do show with their hair in a bun and aren’t penalized for it.

Please link the part where you can be disqualified for a loose chin strap.

I don’t feel the need to wade too deeply into this conversation, but I have to ask: Where are you showing hunters in a ring that is so big that they are hundreds of feet away from the judge the majority of the time? Have they started showing hunters out on the big grass field at Spruce Meadows?

Most hunter judges sit somewhere within about 30 feet of the midpoint of the long side of the show ring, so most exhibitors will pass fairly close to them several times whether the class is over jumps or under saddle.

And since someone already quoted the chinstrap rule from the USEF rulebook, I will just add that it does not need to be measured with a tape measure. Like many things, it is at the judge’s discretion to decide whether it is properly adjusted. I have certainly told exhibitors showing in front of me that they need to tighten their chin strap if they do not want to be eliminated. That happened most recently at a USEF horse show within the last month.

When your arena is 150 by 250 feet the judge will spend a significant amount of time being more than 100 feet away from a rider. I’ve been to shows where the arena was 300 or even 350 feet long.

Though, of all the things I’ve said I’m not sure why that’s the thing we latch onto….

[StormyDay]

@RAyers

So, this is why the public needs to trust experts like us. We build the aircraft you fly in, the cars you drive, the medical devices that are used to rebuild your bones when you fall off.

@RND, These studies were done to simply show that hair tucked up under a helmet REDUCES the ability of the helmet to protect the wearer. At no point was there ever and effort to prove folks need to be bald (how a conspiracy theory is born). The LESS hair under a helmet and the better the fit, the better protection. That is the overarching intent.

You ask fair questions that generally are not conceptually easy.

There are three layers between your brain, the skull, the scalp, hair and then the helmet liner. Each has a coefficient of friction that determines if something moves of doesn’t. Take your full tack trunk and set it on carpet. It takes quite a push to make it go (static COF) but once it’s moving (dynamic COF) it is a bit easier.

The scalp and skull COF is how your skin moves over your skull.

The test was to see what contributes most to a helmet losing its effectiveness. One of those is hair tucked under.

When your head impacts the ground a helmet always moves whether you realize it or not. This is due to the off center loads that are alway present. Thus a large part of causing the brain to slosh into your skull is the larger motion imparted if the helmet slides. That is why we want the liner-scalp dynamic COF as high as possible. It allows the imparted force to deform the liner and slow the brain from sloshing.

Oh yes, the ‘I’m smarter than you so just shut up’ argument.

Going off of your car analogy, I’ll tell mine. My cars engine started having issues. It was smoking, and making horrid noises, and wouldn’t drive faster than 25 miles an hour. It’s a Ford, so I took it to the Ford dealership. They work only on Fords. They are experts in what they do. They told me my engine was toast, and it was going to be around 8k to get a new one.

I then took that car to a local shop. He’s not an expert in fords; he works on anything. He found that the fix wasn’t a new engine, just one part. I paid 1k.

Experts aren’t gods. They don’t know everything. Sometimes they overlook something small.

[Equkelly]

@StormyDay

Understanding why something is done is a good idea.
In my neck of the woods, there are many people who show hunters that actually hunt. There are even hunt run horse shows. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it wrong.

It’s funny you say that because I grew up in a huge fox hunting area and none of them stuff their hair in their helmet. At least not anymore. And even if they did it wouldn’t matter. There is no need.

@StormyDay

If anyone is riding at a USEF sanctioned show, then they have indeed shelled out 1000’s of a dollars in lessons. Heck, they probably shelled out a grand just to be at that show.

You don’t know that. Working student abuse is also rampant in this sport. I showed in usef sanctioned shows and my parents never paid a dime.

@StormyDay

None of this effects the backyard rider. Or the fun show rider. No trainer is telling students to put their hair into their helmets to get on dobbin for the walk trot lesson.

Yes they are.

Also the trends for what people are wearing at the rated shows transfer over to what people are wearing at the local circuit.

[Cat.J95]

Maybe it’s just me, but from what I’ve gathered its the more hair, no matter how it happens, the less effective the helmet is going to be. With that being said, why purposely make the helmet less effective?

[StormyDay]

@Equkelly

@StormyDay

Understanding why something is done is a good idea.
In my neck of the woods, there are many people who show hunters that actually hunt. There are even hunt run horse shows. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t make it wrong.

It’s funny you say that because I grew up in a huge fox hunting area and none of them stuff their hair in their helmet. At least not anymore. And even if they did it wouldn’t matter. There is no need.

@StormyDay

If anyone is riding at a USEF sanctioned show, then they have indeed shelled out 1000’s of a dollars in lessons. Heck, they probably shelled out a grand just to be at that show.

You don’t know that. Working student abuse is also rampant in this sport. I showed in usef sanctioned shows and my parents never paid a dime.

@StormyDay

None of this effects the backyard rider. Or the fun show rider. No trainer is telling students to put their hair into their helmets to get on dobbin for the walk trot lesson.

Yes they are.

Also the trends for what people are wearing at the rated shows transfer over to what people are wearing at the local circuit.

The need is because if you are actually hunting and moving at speed and your braid/hair catches on a branch, you are going to get ripped off of your horse. So yeah, around here it’s still required or at least highly recommended by most hunts.

Good for you. But 99% of the people who show pay to do that. Your one experience doesn’t speak for everyone.

And please show me what trainer is making their students ride in lessons with their hair up. Because I can guarantee you, they aren’t.

All of your arguments are just your personal feelings. None of them are facts. None of them are data.

[Equkelly]

@StormyDay

The need is because if you are actually hunting and moving at speed and your braid/hair catches on a branch, you are going to get ripped off of your horse. So yeah, around here it’s still required or at least highly recommended by most hun

There are no branches in the hunter ring. Your jump course is in an arena… not through a forest.

@StormyDay

Good for you. But 99% of the people who show pay to do that. Your one experience doesn’t speak for everyone.

Neither. Does. Yours.

@StormyDay

And please show me what trainer is making their students ride in lessons with their hair up. Because I can guarantee you, they aren’t.

False.

@StormyDay

All of your arguments are just your personal feelings. None of them are facts. None of them are data.

And yours are logical fallacies.

[Cat.J95]

Uh you do realize modern show hunters are in no way shape or form related to modern hunters right? That’s such a dumb excuse.

[StormyDay]

It’s not an excuse, it’s the reason having your hair up was started. And, it was in response to the claim that I was just done to be sexist. Which it wasn’t.

[StormyDay]

I’m really done with you, you are making up the weirdest excuses about why people can’t have choices about our own hair. Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it should be outlawed. The world does not revolve around you and your likes and dislikes.

If, in the future, someone actually does a study that shows that we need to keep our hair out of our helmets for safety, great. I’ll do it. But that hasn’t happened. And right now, it’s all speculation. And you irrationally demanding we all follow your preferences won’t make it fact.

[Cat.J95]

I’m just saying it’s not a reason now. I don’t know if you saw my post here, but I think what the data is pointing to is more hair between the scalp and the helmet for whatever reason leads to the helmet not working as well. That being said why would you do something that makes your helmet not work as well.

[StormyDay]

@Cat.J95

I’m just saying it’s not a reason now. I don’t know if you saw my post here, but I think what the data is pointing to is more hair between the scalp and the helmet for whatever reason leads to the helmet not working as well. That being said why would you do something that makes your helmet not work as well.

There’s no data to show this. Until someone actually does the research, does a study, it’s speculation.
There’s a lot of things that ‘seem’ to be one way and then when we actually look at the data, we find out that it’s not true at all.

As it is, there’s been a lack of real forward movement in equestrian helmet tech for years now. Studies are few and far between, and grants are difficult to get while the cost of testing remains high. Even MIPS, a tech that’s been around for a while now in other sports, is just now starting to catch on with helmet manufacturers.

So we just don’t know what is more safe. And until we do, I think it’s not wise to speculate or scare others. If you personally wish to keep your hair out of your helmet, then great. Do that. It effects no one but yourself. If you want to wear it up, great. It effects no one but yourself.

I understand people want to ‘fit in’ in the Hunter ring. I understand more than most; I was a ‘well built’ child on a paint horse in an area and a time when that was not fashionable. But I also know that most of the time, when someone doesn’t place well, it isn’t their hair or that their jacket wasn’t the right shade of navy blue. It’s because they made a mistake. Judges are not penalizing riders for having their hair in a neat bun. They are penalizing because your horse chipped to two jumps, your lead change wasn’t clean, your horse canters with his head up in the air, your turns aren’t clean, etc. It’s convenient to blame something you ‘can’t change’ but it’s rarely realistic.

[Cat.J95]

I get where you are coming from. However I do believe the research and now think it’s stupid ‘do my hair.’ That may be old age but I’ll be fine in a bun. If it keeps me safer I’d rather that. Then again I am the person in the ring with a crash vest.

[StormyDay]

@Cat.J95

I get where you are coming from. However I do believe the research and now think it’s stupid ‘do my hair.’ That may be old age but I’ll be fine in a bun. If it keeps me safer I’d rather that. Then again I am the person in the ring with a crash vest.

And That’s great, I think we should all do what’s best for us. I just take offense when we start trying to force others to do something.

I have safety stirrups on all of my saddles. The kind that open on the side when you fall. There’s no research on them (at least that I know of) but I feel safer with them. But I also won’t force everyone else to switch to them. Because it’s an individual’s responsibility to keep themselves safe.